Train sitting in the station with doors locked, passengers waiting outside

[Horizon22]

Only frustrating to the railway cognoscenti. To the general public, FRONT is the first one you come to. REAR is the one at the back of it.

The Southern cracked this long ago for their many portioned trains, it was then "4 coaches nearest the barrier", along with "4 coaches furthest from barrier". Useful expressions probably eliminated by the same managerial approach that finds leaving the passengers out on the platform, when they could be comfortably sat down waiting for departure, is somehow a good thing (see multiple posts above).

If you're coming from one direction at a barrier line at a London terminal for instance, I think its very very difficult to confuse Front & Rear. That being said, normally its followed up with manual announcements "...further from the ticket barrier". Something I've done before as well as "please walk further down the platform to board this train".

 

[lachlan]

I’d agree with the above, I understand being slightly bothered or annoyed but the phrase ‘complaint’ seems unwarranted.

The bit I find most confusing (and without meaning to sound to offensive to the OP) is that they tweeted the company ordering them to open the locked doors which I find really odd personally.

Anyway... Some of the reasons why I personally lock the doors on my trains:

- To allow for reservations to be placed and removed on all seats
- To allow for toilets to be cleaned, unblocked and restocked
- To allow the cleaners to be able to clean every surface, under seats and tables between trips which is harder for them with passengers onboard
- Because my diagram tells me too
- If my relief isn’t on the platform or train and I’m diagramed to be elsewhere to prevent the train being left unattended
- For safety and security to prevent things and people being on the train that shouldn’t be inline with the HOT and WHAT procedure
- If I’m taking my break on the unit on a long layover, it prevents myself from being responsible for the passengers and means I can physically leave the train to visit say a shop or mess room.
- To prevent passengers (particularly the last train of the night) form boarding the wrong train if one is advertised on the platform screens as ‘front train only’.
- To enable the driver to perform brake checks which cannot be done with the doors open. The doors shouldn’t be locked with passengers onboard
- To enable myself to check the cleaners have done their job, all toilets are physically working and systems such as the lighting and PA are working as intended.

Thank you for the detailed response and I appreciate all the reasons why you may wish to keep the doors locked. Just a couple of things: I only use the word "complaint" in the sense that I submitted through the complaints form (maybe these are called something else now, I'm not sure). And there was no "ordering", I asked if they could unlock the doors, why they don't unlock them, and pointed out the obvious accesibility issues that arise from having passengers wait on a platform with very few seats.

I'd much rather a customer complain to me and I explain to them why something is done the way it is, than have them be silently frustrated and not come back.

Thanks again

 

[RHolmes]

I'd much rather a customer complain to me and I explain to them why something is done the way it is, than have them be silently frustrated and not come back.

That is true! I can’t disagree with that!

 

[westcoaster]

I had it once at St pancras high level on a weekend evening.

Arrived into platform 4 with a 4 car 387, ontop of a 222 (which was unlocked ) once announced everyone piled into the 222. So I can clearly see why units are locked awaiting time.

I'm sure they would recieve more complaints about people boarding the wrong train than, awaiting the doors to be opened.

 

[YorksLad12]

This is generally an issue at Leeds as well. It's a pain in winter, but also at other times due to the dearth of seating on platforms.

In the Before Times, Leeds P17 would have the semi-fast in 17B and the stopper arriving in 17A. The doors would generally be locked on the semi-fast to stop people getting on the wrong train... and if they were opened before the stopper had departed there would be regular, frustrated announcements from the guard about which train this was.

Sometimes I had to catch a train from P1. You'd see people thinking how smart they were that they'd noticed that the train in 1C was in darkness whereas the one in 1B was lit up, so they would stand near that... because they hadn't clocked that the train they wanted was coming in to 1A. But if you're not Leeds-aware you'd think that the first platform you came to would be A, then B and C, whereas A it at the far end, B closer to the buffer stop.

The annoying one for me was (and probably still is) the LNER sets, especially on P8. People board them while they're being cleaned because they see an open door - even though there are bags of rubbish in the doorway. It honestly won't leave without you...

 

[lachlan]

To be fair I've boarded the wrong train before though luckily realised before the doors closed. Its easy to make mistakes when you're tired and stressed rushing for a train We need all the signage and announcements we can get!

 

[Steve Harris]

I had it once at St pancras high level on a weekend evening.

Arrived into platform 4 with a 4 car 387, ontop of a 222 (which was unlocked ) once announced everyone piled into the 222. So I can clearly see why units are locked awaiting time.

I'm sure they would recieve more complaints about people boarding the wrong train than, awaiting the doors to be opened.

But if there was an announcement saying "furthest train from the barrier" and they got on the wrong train what would they have to complain about. Afterall, it is their responsibility to get on the right train!

Back when I was knee high I was taught to look at the destination blind on the front of the train/bus (and tram when I went to Blackpool for the Illuminations) to make sure it was going to were I wanted to go !

 

[infobleep]

I know what you mean... seen it far to many times myself.
I do wonder if they would be prime candidates for a brain transplant.. but (as they don't know what front is), I doubt if they would ever get to the front of the que. lol


Perhaps because people actually know the score... As joining and dividing units on the Southern region has been going on for decades and people have got used to it and know to check what actual train they're getting on before joining !

Have trains not been splitting and joining in other parts of the country for years?

 

[scotraildriver]

To be fair I've boarded the wrong train before though luckily realised before the doors closed. Its easy to make mistakes when you're tired and stressed rushing for a train We need all the signage and announcements we can get!

There you go then! If it's locked you won't board the wrong one. I rest my case.

 

[infobleep]

being on the train that shouldn’t be inline with the HOT and WHAT procedure.

WHAT is HOT?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

WHAT is HOT?

Hidden
Obvious
Typical

It's described in some detail in this old thread linked below:

H.O.T. procedure?

Can anyone tell me what the H.O.T. procedure is. I think it stands for Hidden, Obvious & Typical in conjunction with finding a bag on a train (is it a bomb?). I suppose if it's hidden it's more suspicious but I don't get the 'Typical'. ...and I've not heard of any procedure. When I google it...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[unlevel42]

Please lock the train when on arrival at Manchester Airport.
Please switch off all the platform destination signs.
Decide once and for all which is the front and rear-perhaps use colour zones.
Don't let the platform staff out until everybody knows which train is going where.

My dad told me always ask the driver -they always know where the train is going. Not so at Manchester Airport on March 13th 2020.
Fifty odd bleary eyed early morning trans Atlantic arrivals badgering the poor railway staff, destination boards looked like animations they were changing so quickly. Three car or six car? Will they won't they join up. Guard on one set, driver on the other. Luggage, families, foreigners, on off, on off, on.
Gave up, as did the platform staff, and caught the first train to Piccadilly and then the luxury of a quiet, tranquil, stress free Hope Valley stopper - thank you Northern.

 

[jon0844]

Keeping one train locked during permissive working is fairly commonplace. Otherwise you get people just getting on the nearest door of the nearest train without checking if it’s that one that is actually forming the service. Keeping the doors of that rear train locked stops passengers getting on the wrong train, and hopefully a hint to move further up the platform to the open train when they see others walking there.

I was surprised recently to see this not being the case at Norwich, and a member of staff getting onboard the rear unit to do a PA shortly before the front set was due to leave to advise people it wasn't the train about to go - and a lot of people then packing up their stuff and rushing to change.

 

[daodao]

I was surprised recently to see this not being the case at Norwich, and a member of staff getting onboard the rear unit to do a PA shortly before the front set was due to leave to advise people it wasn't the train about to go - and a lot of people then packing up their stuff and rushing to change.

It is certainly sensible to keep doors locked on all trains in the platform, other than the first one scheduled to depart, if more than 1 train is in the platform. An alternative option which may be feasible at certain stations, such as London Euston (main-line platforms), M/c Piccadilly (platforms 1-9) and Blackpool North, is to keep the platform gates locked until the train is ready to board. Clearly this will not suffice if more than 1 train is in the platform and one of them is ready to depart.

A much greater problem with passengers boarding the wrong train can occur at through stations where more than 1 train is permitted to occupy the platform at the same time, and/or the services are running late. This happened to me once at Cardiff Queen Street, but I was able to walk from Heath High Level to Heath Low Level to rectify my error and join the train I had intended to catch.

 

[yorksrob]

In the Before Times, Leeds P17 would have the semi-fast in 17B and the stopper arriving in 17A. The doors would generally be locked on the semi-fast to stop people getting on the wrong train... and if they were opened before the stopper had departed there would be regular, frustrated announcements from the guard about which train this was.

Sometimes I had to catch a train from P1. You'd see people thinking how smart they were that they'd noticed that the train in 1C was in darkness whereas the one in 1B was lit up, so they would stand near that... because they hadn't clocked that the train they wanted was coming in to 1A. But if you're not Leeds-aware you'd think that the first platform you came to would be A, then B and C, whereas A it at the far end, B closer to the buffer stop.

The annoying one for me was (and probably still is) the LNER sets, especially on P8. People board them while they're being cleaned because they see an open door - even though there are bags of rubbish in the doorway. It honestly won't leave without you...

And in the distant before times, there were a lot more seats on platform 17 as well !

 

[OldNick]

I can see both sides of the argument.

It's annoying for passengers when it's cold, or there aren't enough seats on the platform (there never will be the same number as on the train though!) or they just want to get their favourite window/table/legroom seat/plug socket before anyone else, or generally avoid the rush.

But if staff are specifically instructed not to leave unattended trains unlocked then it'll be for a reason. Security (will CCTV be working?), fare evaders immediately setting up camp in the toilet, preventing checks and delaying the service? A medical emergency on a train with no staff, perhaps? Loads of reasons why it's not ideal to have people on an unattended train. What if a unit fails somewhere, and a late change means this train is now going to prop up a different service, and there are now people on it going to the wrong place? What if this unit fails? Many rules come from lessons learnt previously, so to suggest it's deliberately to inconvenience people is a bit silly.

 

[Whistler40145]

At Blackpool North, passengers aren't allowed onto trains until the train crew have arrived and the station staff open the relevant doors on the concourse, which is usually 5 minutes prior to departure, except on the rare occasion of the crew arriving in on a delayed service

 

[skyhigh]

In the Before Times, Leeds P17 would have the semi-fast in 17B and the stopper arriving in 17A. The doors would generally be locked on the semi-fast to stop people getting on the wrong train... and if they were opened before the stopper had departed there would be regular, frustrated announcements from the guard about which train this was.

It still happens, plus the 17A Knottingley and 17B Nottingham confusion...

 

[Robertj21a]

At Blackpool North, passengers aren't allowed onto trains until the train crew have arrived and the station staff open the relevant doors on the concourse, which is usually 5 minutes prior to departure, except on the rare occasion of the crew arriving in on a delayed service

My experience of Blackpool North is that the 'unique' staff employed there will do everything possible to irritate waiting passengers. Heaven forbid that you would actually like to catch a train!

 

[TheEdge]

I was surprised recently to see this not being the case at Norwich, and a member of staff getting onboard the rear unit to do a PA shortly before the front set was due to leave to advise people it wasn't the train about to go - and a lot of people then packing up their stuff and rushing to change.

This may be down to a foible of the 755s.

If they are booked to be stood for less than 30m then they are left on diesel, any longer they are swapped onto electric. Until recently however if they are left on diesel for longer than 15m with the doors locked they will shut everything down which results in having to a start up from cold and dark, which takes 5 - 7 minutes, and is when they like to introduce a surprise fault.

There has been a recent software update to extend their shut down time to 30m but practice at Norwich hasn't really ever been to lock units as we only tend to see permissive working during the peaks (remember those?) or the start of service. Start of service they are locked anyway and during the times they are operating with permissive working the units more often than not tend to be both crewed ready to go rapidly so people can be directed the right way.

 

[43066]

My dad told me always ask the driver -they always know where the train is going.

You’d hope so, but they don’t always. Dissemination of information on the railway is poor as a rule. If there are set swaps/last minute changes the train crew can also be kept in the dark.

More than once I’ve been walking along the platform to be told by passengers coming the other way that the service will now be departing from another platform. There’s obviously an amusing side to this, but it mostly just makes us all look very unprofessional.

Also worth noting that there can be other non-obvious operational reasons why doors are left locked. On a type of stock I sign, the seat reservations will not display correctly if the doors are released before the guard has loaded the trip into the TMS. Only guards can load the trip, and only drivers can release the doors so if one or t’other hasn’t arrived the doors remain firmly closed (not an issue since Covid as reservations are currently suspended).

 

[Steve Harris]

Have trains not been splitting and joining in other parts of the country for years?

Yes they have, but since I started travelling on trains (in the 80's) joining and splitting seemed to be more prolific on the Southern region (compared to the rest).

 

[Horizon22]

At Blackpool North, passengers aren't allowed onto trains until the train crew have arrived and the station staff open the relevant doors on the concourse, which is usually 5 minutes prior to departure, except on the rare occasion of the crew arriving in on a delayed service

Blackpool North appears to be a special case...

 

[Steve Harris]

I can see both sides of the argument.

It's annoying for passengers when it's cold, or there aren't enough seats on the platform (there never will be the same number as on the train though!) or they just want to get their favourite window/table/legroom seat/plug socket before anyone else, or generally avoid the rush.

But if staff are specifically instructed not to leave unattended trains unlocked then it'll be for a reason. Security (will CCTV be working?), fare evaders immediately setting up camp in the toilet, preventing checks and delaying the service? A medical emergency on a train with no staff, perhaps? Loads of reasons why it's not ideal to have people on an unattended train. What if a unit fails somewhere, and a late change means this train is now going to prop up a different service, and there are now people on it going to the wrong place? What if this unit fails? Many rules come from lessons learnt previously, so to suggest it's deliberately to inconvenience people is a bit silly.

Some of your points are rather lame IMO....
"A medical emergency on a train with no staff, perhaps?" Not much difference to the person sitting on the platform and having same said emergency, granted that they may have to open the train doors to get on to the platform... (but once on the platform they still might not be spotted by someone who can help them).
As for " fare evaders immediately setting up camp in the toilet" they can do this as soon as the train is unlocked by staff !! So that argument holds as much water as a Class 365 toilet bowl I'm afraid.

I will give you that passengers would have to move if the train failed though.

 

[Whistler40145]

Blackpool North appears to be a special case...

Since Covid 19 restrictions, the number of gateline staff has reduced and at times the gates are open

 

[Darandio]

Since Covid 19 restrictions, the number of gateline staff has reduced and at times the gates are open

Every cloud and all that.......

 

[Stigy]

Some of your points are rather lame IMO....
"A medical emergency on a train with no staff, perhaps?" Not much difference to the person sitting on the platform and having same said emergency, granted that they may have to open the train doors to get on to the platform... (but once on the platform they still might not be spotted by someone who can help them).
As for " fare evaders immediately setting up camp in the toilet" they can do this as soon as the train is unlocked by staff !! So that argument holds as much water as a Class 365 toilet bowl I'm afraid.

I will give you that passengers would have to move if the train failed though.

If a train is unlocked and ultimately unstaffed, who is responsible for it? It may not be part of the station security check or if it is, go unchecked because it’s a train rather than the station itself. This could leave it vulnerable to vandalism or even terrorism.

It’s strange it was left running in this case to be fair, but that may be because these trains are difficult to restart, or the engine hasn’t shut down itself after taking the driver’s key out.

At my TOC we are instructed to shut down engines if at a station for more than 10 minutes. I do merely because they’re noisy and smelly and have had no issues restarting them, but you need to factor in enough time to build air up again before departure obviously.

 

[infobleep]

This may be down to a foible of the 755s.

If they are booked to be stood for less than 30m then they are left on diesel, any longer they are swapped onto electric. Until recently however if they are left on diesel for longer than 15m with the doors locked they will shut everything down which results in having to a start up from cold and dark, which takes 5 - 7 minutes, and is when they like to introduce a surprise fault.

There has been a recent software update to extend their shut down time to 30m but practice at Norwich hasn't really ever been to lock units as we only tend to see permissive working during the peaks (remember those?) or the start of service. Start of service they are locked anyway and during the times they are operating with permissive working the units more often than not tend to be both crewed ready to go rapidly so people can be directed the right way.

If they are kept open, does this mean staff have to start with the unit rather than do elsewhere for a break?

 

[dk1]

If they are kept open, does this mean staff have to start with the unit rather than do elsewhere for a break?

You would never have to stay with the unit. That’s not an official place to have a break. Has to be an agreed messroom with all available facilities.

 

[nanstallon]

Was always the case at Darlington if a unit was there for a length of time. Doors locked until not long before departure then driver gets on and does brake checks etc, guard walks through the train then doors are released. Certainly doesn't warrant someone submitting a complaint.

It does warrant a complaint if the customer is unhappy about it.