Travel Short on an Advance

Discussion in 'Fares Advice & Policy' started by gray1404, 17 May 2015.

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  1. gray1404

    gray1404 Established Member

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    I have a LM Advance ticket to Liverpool Lime Street coming up. Would I be allowed to travel short on this ticket and end my journey at Liverpool South Parkway?

    In addition, I have a LM Advance coming up booked from Liverpool Lime Street, and wondered if I would be able to board at Liverpool South Parkway instead?

    (Note: I am NOT asking about a break of journey nor would I want to pick up my journey again and continue onto Liverpool Lime Street later on).

    In theory I could use my Merseytravel travel pass to open the gate at LPY but even so I could not imagine the ME staff at LPY being the slightest bit bothered anyway. A problem would only come in I think if LM RPIs were at LPY (not even sure this would happen as its a ME managed station) or if the guard on the outward train noticed I'd boarded at LPY rather then LIV - although would they seriously be bothered.
     
    Last edited: 17 May 2015
  2. Hadders

    Hadders Established Member

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    Officially no.

    Unofficially you'll probably get away with it. I believe internal guidance to railway employees was issued a few years ago following a couple of well publicised cases.
     
  3. island

    island Established Member

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    What is the printed destination on your ticket?
     
  4. gray1404

    gray1404 Established Member

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    Oh, what sort of internal guidence?

    For the journey in which I am asking if I can join at LPY rather then LIV, its a ticket from LIV to Hove (HOV)

    For the journey in which I'm asking if I can get off at LPY rather then LIV its a HOV to LIV ticket held.
     
  5. island

    island Established Member

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    If the ticket says LIVERPOOL STNS you have more of an argument than if it says LIVERPOOL L ST. But very little either way.
     
    Last edited: 17 May 2015
  6. gray1404

    gray1404 Established Member

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    So sorry, I was not clear. It says Liverpool L ST on both tickets.
     
  7. asharpe

    asharpe Member

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    See the link at the bottom of the RailForums fare guide post about Advance tickets.

    http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1179550&postcount=5

    Q26 deals with this:
     
    Last edited: 17 May 2015
  8. gray1404

    gray1404 Established Member

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    In my case the fare from Liverpool South Parkway and Liverpool Lime Street is exactly the same for this type of Advance ticket to/from Hove, as are the TOC restrictions on the ticket, so there could therefore be no suggestion whatsoever of any intent to try to avoid paying a higher fare.

    Would I be right in saying that the term "no additional fare should be charged..." would also mean that a PF should NOT be charged in these circumstances too?
     
  9. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    A PF cannot legitimatrly be charged for finishing short when not permitted.

    The NRCoC allows for an excess up to the cheapest walk up ticket to be charged, but staff are instructed not to do this in the circumstances you describe.
     
  10. PermitToTravel

    PermitToTravel Established Member

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    But if it happens (which is very unlikely) you will have to pay a lot of money, and will not have a leg to stand on.
     
  11. gray1404

    gray1404 Established Member

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    Could it still happen though if rail staff are instructed not to and a PF cannot be charged?

    And would I not be able to rely on internal guidence issued to staff in the event of any problems i.e. your staff member should not have done this?
     
  12. PermitToTravel

    PermitToTravel Established Member

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    A PF cannot be charged, but an excess can.

    You can't rely on it, no, because it doesn't form any part of your contract with the TOC; the Advance tickets terms and conditions do.

    (with all of that said, I'd still do it, and nor would I advise you not to)
     
  13. Merseysider

    Merseysider Established Member Fares Advisor

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    Why don't you get something in writing? I think there's a fair chance that if you asked LM or whoever they'd say something along the lines of either "it'll cost you a £10 admin fee blah blah blah" or "you won't be prosecuted/UFNed/PFed/excessed but in future try to stick to the exact stations booked where possible".
     
  14. Starmill

    Starmill Established Member

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    If you were to get off the train at Liverpool South Parkway and exit the gates using a single from West Allerton to Liverpool South Parkway, thereby stopping short, that would be breaking the terms and conditions of your ticket. I'll leave it up to you to decide what the likelihood of anyone finding out you've done that is. You need to use your own judgement here and decide if that's an ethical course of action or not.
     
    Last edited: 17 May 2015
  15. gray1404

    gray1404 Established Member

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    Exactly, they are not going to do anything and its unlikely the guard on the train will want any bother over a passenger who has actually paid their fare already. I'll be able to get through the gateline at LPY with my Merseytravel PTE issued travel pass anyway :)
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    Am also going to print off a copy of the guide on Advance tickets where it says about FAQ Q27. Also, on the return leg (if it is the day later due to the strike) I am going to make a point of saying that I've been disrupted anyway so am merely getting to my destination ASAP.
     
  16. plastictaffy

    plastictaffy Established Member

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    I'd chance it regardless. It'll either be a New Street Guard or a Crewe Guard. New Street often don't walk trains, and Crewe Guards are a bloody good bunch. sd0733 would be able to help, if he's about.
     
  17. gray1404

    gray1404 Established Member

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    The other thing is they might just assume that the booking office issued it from Lime Street by default (if I went there to book it). I have know that to happen, someone request a Advance from LPY but then its issued from LIV (normally same price EXCEPT for Advances on TEP - a few pence less).

    I've found that too those LM guards based at Crewe are a very friendly bunch and, provided you've paid a fare, are very laid back about anything minor like this. I've found these on both LIV-BHM and Crewe-EUS LM services.

    Question: (correct me if I need to do a new post on this) Do the Crewe guards work the LM EUS services after MKC? Or this is always a guard from another (would it be MKC or EUS) depot between MKC and EUS?
     
  18. DaveNewcastle

    DaveNewcastle Established Member Fares Advisor

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    I agree with those above who have hinted, suggested or even recommended that it is acceptable to 'stop short' when travelling on an Advance ticket for a longer journey.
    While it is conceivable that such a passenger might be challenged in repsect of the fare paid for the ticket preaented for a different journey, I should just point out another possible hazard which arises from abusing a ticket which is dedicated to a specific journey other than the journey which was actually taken. That is the insurance which flows from a loss incurred during ticketed rail travel.

    In the unlikely event that a claim follows from a serious loss, such as the millions of pounds we see awarded following severe injuries and/or the loss of limbs, then we should expect the claim to be challenged successfuly if the passenger was not traveling as contracted.

    The probability of these events occurring are of course exceptionally low, but the value when they do, is exceptionally high. There is a tendency for people to confuse low probability of a risk with a low assessment of loss. I hope anyone who feels happy to take a small short term gain by 'stopping short' is equally happy to forego the very substantial compensation they should expect to receive following the very unlikely event of a serious and/or fatal accident.
     
  19. 34D

    34D Established Member

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    Wow.... obviously if getting off the train early avoided being on board when a collision occurred then all to the good.

    Can I have a large one of whatever tincture you are currently quaffing, please?
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    The op has a Merseyside concession pass, so another ticket is already held
     
  20. gray1404

    gray1404 Established Member

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    Actually then, given that I do have a Merseyside connection pass so another ticket is already held, am I merely transfering from one ticket to another, using a combination of tickets? Or does this not apply because I am still using an Advance and getting on and also off my booked train a stop late/a stop early.

    In the old days when most mainline stations were ungated, I know someone (hehe shall mention no names but I know this guy just as well as I know myself) who used to book a Virgin Value 14 Day Advance Return (in the days when Advance were returns) from Liverpool to Totnes, spend 10 days in Devon then go to Taunton for 4 days before coming home. The cheapest way to get a single from Totnes to Taunton was to get a Virgin Value 14 Day Advance Single from Totnes to Bristol Parkway and then just get off the train when it stopped at Taunton (this was way cheaper then a ticket to Taunton from TOT as only walk ups offered). Even moved people out of the reserved seat that was booked since Totnes if the train was full and standing. Then 4 days later use the other half of the above LIV-TOT return and just pick up the VT XC service when it stopped at Taunton. No one ever said anything. That said there were never any at station checks, just those on train. Worked out a massive £ saving doing this. Naughty!
     
    Last edited: 19 May 2015
  21. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    There is an argument to say that could indeed be considered the case, it's been made before, not everyone agrees though.

    However you have earlier stated that you would be "ending" your journey at LPY, and the Merseyside pass is presumably not even used as part of your journey as it doesn't cover any part of the journey, so it would be a bizarre argument to make in your case.
    Some people will argue that.

    I'd say it doesn't apply because your journey is - by your own admission - to LPY, and you are only using one ticket.
     
  22. clagmonster

    clagmonster Established Member

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    I suppose the argument could be made that the journey is from entering Hove station to leaving Liverpool South Parkway station. When the train comes to a halt at Liverpool South Parkway, the passengers changes tickets using condition 19b (as the train clearly stops at that location) and then immediately alights using the Merseytravel pass until leaving the station. I agree it is slightly bizarre but I think just within the rules.
     
  23. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    That's an argument I am not going to disagree with, but not one I'd want to be making either.

    But, even if it's against the T&Cs (which is debatable), we know the rail industry's policy is to allow exit, so it's moot.

    (BTW good to see you posting again!)
     
  24. clagmonster

    clagmonster Established Member

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    I think I'm in exactly the same position.

    Thanks for the welcome back, I'll try to post more regularly.
     
  25. gray1404

    gray1404 Established Member

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    I still actually be continuing on ME to a destination on their network. :)
     
  26. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    Ah, we were going by the opening post...
    (It's still moot!)
     
  27. gray1404

    gray1404 Established Member

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    Had no trouble in the end on either outward or return journey. In and out of LPY gateline no problems, guard on train said nothing either. Happy days! (Although, yes, I do know I was taking a calculated risk).
     
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