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Travelled on the next available train (after cancellation) but being charged.

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Tim R-T-C

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When the airline industry was regulated there could be no EasyJet - and they make a point of saying that they are the lowest cost, most punctual airline in Europe.

Actually the most puctual airline in the world in 2014 was state owned Air Baltic. Many of the world's top ten are state owned actually.

20150113_Airlines_Fo.jpg


Easyjet are "most punctual in class in begnin operating conditions" which means precisely nothing.
 
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najaB

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Easyjet are "most punctual in class in begnin operating conditions" which means precisely nothing.
They make the claim, not me! :) Regardless, the fact is that airline deregulation and service innovation means that you can fly from the UK to (somewhere near) many European cities for the price of a decent meal, where in the regulated era it would probably have cost ten times as much. (I'm not sure that is a good thing from an environmental viewpoint.)
 

Bletchleyite

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When the airline industry was regulated there could be no EasyJet - and they make a point of saying that they are the lowest cost, most punctual airline in Europe.


Yet nobody has done the same on the railway yet (nor should they with the main network - taking connections out would be mad). And Open Access TOCs don't have to join ORCATS, do they? Yet they all do...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
But to me the railway is more of a piece of national infrastructure - and I would like to see more of a Swiss infrastructure style to its operation (connections are key, basic comfortable accommodation, First Class at 160% of Standard fare, returns are two singles, no competition as the competition is the car, primarily walk up operation etc).

I would like to see local public transport the same - Hamburger Verkehrsverbund have long used the slogan "Der Rhythmus der Stadt" - the rhythm of the city - a fundamental, reliable part of everyone's lives. Where outside London is that the case in the UK?
 

najaB

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But to me the railway is more of a piece of national infrastructure - and I would like to see more of a Swiss infrastructure style to its operation (connections are key, basic comfortable accommodation, First Class at 160% of Standard fare, returns are two singles, no competition as the competition is the car, primarily walk up operation etc).
You aren't alone in the desire to see that happen, effectively what you're talking about is renationalisation. And that is a matter for it's own thread. Or this one. Or this one. Or this one...
 

Tom B

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I would like to see local public transport the same - Hamburger Verkehrsverbund have long used the slogan "Der Rhythmus der Stadt" - the rhythm of the city - a fundamental, reliable part of everyone's lives. Where outside London is that the case in the UK?

Edinburgh has high usage of public transport, with well-arranged park-and-ride schemes and peak time express buses alongside a reasonably extensive rail service.

Contrast that to some parts of South Yorkshire where wages are low and many people are on the DSS, but car ownership is a lot higher. Generally because the public transport is unreliable or just isn't running at the right time to get people to/from work. You'd certainly never see any 'A/B/C1s' on a bus unless their car broke down!

Guess which one is operated as a commercial free-for-all and which is state run?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Indeed, and that is exactly what I did, but you said it was "not that difficult" to do something which, in fact, is sometimes impossible and I suspect most passengers would have no idea which trains were DOO.

Edit: The implication, if I understood you correctly, was that the passeger should ask the 'guard' before boarding - once you have boarded and the train is on the move it would be a bit late !

Of course, I suggest that a reasonable percentage of uninformed passengers, upon being told to "ask the guard", would go up to the first person on the platform wearing any sort of official looking uniform - be that the toilet cleaner or the stationmaster.

In terms of disruption I've previously found difficulty at stations with multiple TOCs where one of the TOCs is experiencing problems. For instance, Edinburgh Waverley once when great disruption was being caused to all East Coast services and the very few EC staff were rushing around like headless chickens trying to sort things out - meanwhile ScotRail and Network Rail staff were loitering around looking bored but using the stock "join the long queue to the information desk" response. I know that in today's fragmented world, the idea of cooperation seems a bit foreign, but surely the staff of other TOCs have the common sense and information to answer 75% of passenger queries ("when's the next train?" "what happens with the reservations?"). I'm not sure what the average station attendant of one TOC can do that another can't, in terms of provide information, but surely a little communication in these situations could work wonders and allow staff of all TOCs to assist? (This may happen in other locations, I don't know, but the stock response tends to be that if your query even remotely involves another TOC, nothing to do with me mate).

Worst case is somewhere between King's Cross and Doncaster if you have a problem with a GC or HT service and nobody to ask!
 

trainophile

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Perhaps it should be incumbent upon whoever is responsible for showing CANCELLED against a train service, to also display further information as to what passengers for that service should do. Most platform PIS screens have scrolling lists of calling points, and often other information e.g. "First Class is at the front of the train", which could be utilised for advice about cancelled trains.

Even if it only said "Go to ticket office", people would have a starting point. Or "tickets accepted on the 1454 London Midland service to Crewe" would help a great number of people.
 

najaB

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Perhaps it should be incumbent upon whoever is responsible for showing CANCELLED against a train service, to also display further information as to what passengers for that service should do.
That is a very good idea! Simple and easy to implement - perhaps you should tweet/email it to a TOC and see what they say.
 

sheff1

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Which state is that ?

Latvia.
Air Baltic is a subsidiary of SAS.

No it isn't.


Perhaps it should be incumbent upon whoever is responsible for showing CANCELLED against a train service, to also display further information as to what passengers for that service should do. Most platform PIS screens have scrolling lists of calling points, and often other information e.g. "First Class is at the front of the train", which could be utilised for advice about cancelled trains.

Yes a good idea.

In the bad old days (sic) of manual announcements at stations, advice to passengers of what to do when a train was cancelled was normal. Now, with recorded announcements, we are told a train is cancelled and nothing more except, maybe, a reason which doesn't really assist with how to complete one's journey.
 
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sheff1

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To be fair to martinsh it was founded as joint venture and only became fully state owned due to the default of the bank that ended up owning SAS's shares.

Yes, but that happened in 2011, three years before for the period the figures posted above relate to.

Talking of people being out of date, this post takes some beating:
Contrast that to some parts of South Yorkshire where wages are low and many people are on the DSS,

The DSS has not existed since 2001 !
 
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Starmill

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Quite. Not everyone wants commercial innovation. Many want a quality, understated, punctual and reliable railway at a reasonable price. Nobody would ever call SBB innovative, but it is very popular both within Switzerland and outside it.

Indeed. I am really coming round to the view that I would rather sacrifice the mod-cons for getting the basic necessities right. Basic facilities plus punctuality, reliability and tickets becoming more affordable. I would put those ahead of niceties like air conditioning, wifi, sockets and carpets, much as these are top of my list of comforts.
 

Bletchleyite

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Perhaps it should be incumbent upon whoever is responsible for showing CANCELLED against a train service, to also display further information as to what passengers for that service should do. Most platform PIS screens have scrolling lists of calling points, and often other information e.g. "First Class is at the front of the train", which could be utilised for advice about cancelled trains.



Even if it only said "Go to ticket office", people would have a starting point. Or "tickets accepted on the 1454 London Midland service to Crewe" would help a great number of people.


Normally Euston do do that, but only in the scrolly notes field with all the other stuff.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Yes a good idea.

In the bad old days (sic) of manual announcements at stations, advice to passengers of what to do when a train was cancelled was normal. Now, with recorded announcements, we are told a train is cancelled and nothing more except, maybe, a reason which doesn't really assist with how to complete one's journey.


Actually the auto PIS used on the south WCML does, in a way - you get a couple of "Passengers for X and Y your next fastest direct service is the xx:xx service to YY from platform Z" - though it does not advise on ticket validity.
 
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I have no idea how you reached that conclusion. If your booked train is cancelled, talk to station staff or the guard on the next train that will get you where you need to get. Really not that difficult.

Edit: Bear in mind we started this discussion speaking of Advance tickets that clearly state on them that they are valid on a specific train - if that train is cancelled I don't think it is 'beyond the understanding' of a passenger to ask a question. The TOC-specific walk-up tickets are a little more difficult, but on the routes where they are most common the guard will normally make an announcement something like 'Tickets marked XC only are not valid on this train'. I've witnessed several occasions where passengers have said something like "Oh, sorry I've got on the wrong train" and the guards have given them the option of alighting at the next stop to get the train they should be on or let them stay on board with a warning. I've only once seen a guard actually sell a new ticket, but the passenger was giving him a lot of lip.

Are you suggesting that all passengers should approach the Guard of the next train to ask if they are allowed to travel?
50+ passengers were told to join the next service(Great Western) to Reading yesterday by a Cross Country guard as the train they were on was no longer going to stop there.
If all those passengers follow your advice and then approached the guard(whom I did not see) at the door he opened. How long would he be reasonably be allowed to hold the Train to check all tickets first?
The same could apply if the previous trains guard has advised passengers to disembark at a unstaffed station, presuming his train had become delayed due to line issues ''the next available train'' could also be delayed. Would it be acceptable for an infinite number of passengers to go to the door he's at and ask ''can I use this ticket''? Or would it be better to allow everyone to board and allow them to travel?
 

najaB

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50+ passengers were told to join the next service(Great Western) to Reading yesterday by a Cross Country guard as the train they were on was no longer going to stop there.
If they were told to join, then permission has been given. So no need to speak with the guard.
 
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If they were told to join, then permission has been given. So no need to speak with the guard.

Are you saying that the initial TOC'S conductor has authority to allow passengers to travel on the next train to there destination on another TOC?
If you are then your long winding argument that has derailed the thread was pointless.
 

bb21

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Are you saying that the initial TOC'S conductor has authority to allow passengers to travel on the next train to there destination on another TOC?
If you are then your long winding argument that has derailed the thread was pointless.

What do you mean?

In theory, the guard on the first train should only make such announcements where ticket acceptance is in place.
 

trainophile

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Another thing that occurs to me re. having to wait for the next train by the same operator if your journey is interrupted by a cancellation, is that some people will have a time deadline for arrival wherever they are going. Interview, hospital appointment, picking up children from school etc.

I'm sure no-one would suggest everyone travels at least an hour before they really need to, just to allow for unscheduled delays. Besides, in the case of a medical appointment, some people will be coming out of work to attend it.

Boss: "What time is your hospital appointment?"
Employee "3.00 p.m."
Boss: "So why do you need to leave work at 11.00 a.m. when it's only an hour away?"
Employee: "In case my train doesn't turn up".


Don't know how much longer this thread will go on, but in case everyone has exhausted all their arguments I must just give a 'round of applause' to najaB, for services to untiringly fielding almost every argument from the other side of the net! :lol: I for one wouldn't last five minutes in a verbal debate with you naja! :lol:
 
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What do you mean?

In theory, the guard on the first train should only make such announcements where ticket acceptance is in place.

Najab, has argued that passengers should obtain permission to travel on another operators train from that operators Staff, if theirs has been cancelled. Does the previous Guard have authority to allow travel on the next available train regardless of operator?
And that a different TOC shouldn't have to allow another TOC only passenger on it's train even if it's the next available.

If I am to follow Najab's postings then I should ask the next trains guard ''Can I travel'' if I'm unsure. As I am unlikely to be the only passenger in a similar position then He suggests approaching a member of Staff. How practical is this if there are 50 + passengers in the same situation? Often the first opportunity to do this will be the next trains Conductor.
Is Najab saying the Guard can refuse entry for passengers of the previous trains operator or ''PF'' them if they join his train? Or is he saying they cannot?
 

bb21

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Does the previous Guard have authority to allow travel on the next available train regardless of operator?

No, he does not, in theory, AIUI, not when no ticket acceptance is in place, but that does not usually matter, as very rarely do passengers who are already delayed get refused travel on the next available service (by any operator) imo.

And that a different TOC shouldn't have to allow another TOC only passenger on it's train even if it's the next available.

If I am to follow Najab's postings then I should ask the next trains guard ''Can I travel'' if I'm unsure. As I am unlikely to be the only passenger in a similar position then He suggests approaching a member of Staff. How practical is this if there are 50 + passengers in the same situation? Often the first opportunity to do this will be the next trains Conductor.
Is Najab saying the Guard can refuse entry for passengers of the previous trains operator or ''PF'' them if they join his train? Or is he saying they cannot?

I am not going to get involved in that debate as you guys are doing a pretty good job yourselves. :D
 

najaB

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If I am to follow Najab's postings then I should ask the next trains guard ''Can I travel'' if I'm unsure. As I am unlikely to be the only passenger in a similar position then He suggests approaching a member of Staff. How practical is this if there are 50 + passengers in the same situation? Often the first opportunity to do this will be the next trains Conductor.
If there is a large number of passengers affected then TOC A will normally make arrangements en-mass. It's unlikely (though not impossible) that there will be 50+ people waiting for a train at an unstaffed station.
Is Najab saying the Guard can refuse entry for passengers of the previous trains operator or ''PF'' them if they join his train? Or is he saying they cannot?
I haven't yet found anything in the NRCoC, etc. that says that they can't, but thankfully it is rare that they do either of those things.
 

trainophile

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And another thing... :lol:

Surely by making all the de-trained passengers, plus would-be boarders, wait for the next hourly service, it will cause that next train to have to carry twice the normal loading. Whereas if they are allowed to disperse between other operators who can get them nearer to their various destinations, it reduces the chance of overcrowding.
 
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bb21

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And another thing... :lol:

Surely by making all the de-trained passengers, plus would-be boarders, wait for the next hourly service, it will cause that next train to have to carry twice the normal loading. Whereas if they are allowed to disperse between other operators who can get them nearer to their various destinations, it reduced the chance of overcrowding.

I believe that is one of the factors to be considered when deciding whether to put ticket acceptance in place.
 

najaB

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I believe that is one of the factors to be considered when deciding whether to put ticket acceptance in place.
Indeed it would be. Because remember it can work both ways - the cancelled train might have been lightly loaded and the alternative train may already be quite crowded. The next service for the TOC whose service is cancelled may be lightly loaded, and the alternative TOC's next train might be quite crowded.
 
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Tom B

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I'm sure no-one would suggest everyone travels at least an hour before they really need to, just to allow for unscheduled delays. Besides, in the case of a medical appointment, some people will be coming out of work to attend it.

Boss: "What time is your hospital appointment?"
Employee "3.00 p.m."
Boss: "So why do you need to leave work at 11.00 a.m. when it's only an hour away?"
Employee: "In case my train doesn't turn up".

Hmm - the amount of time you should leave would, I'd say, depend on several factors. How important is your hospital visit - are you just going for a routine blood test or do you need to meet a specific consultant about a serious health problem etc.

The same argument applies to day-to-day commuting. I leave myself at least 20 minutes spare on my journey, which means that I can get to the station, find the service suspended, take a bus to the other station and travel from there and still get in just on time. Of course there will be occasions where you will be spectacularly delayed, say both lines were suspended and you were obliged to take a bus or whatever. But leaving 20 minutes grace period, I've only ever been late to work (due to travel issues) twice in the last 4 years - and I've had time for a relaxed chat/cup of tea/whatever every other day before starting.
 

trainophile

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Hmm - the amount of time you should leave would, I'd say, depend on several factors. How important is your hospital visit - are you just going for a routine blood test or do you need to meet a specific consultant about a serious health problem etc.

That isn't really relevant - if you have been given an appointment (which tends to be to suit the specialist or medic concerned, not your own travel arrangements), you have to be there at least just before the stated time, or you won't be seen. As a lot of medical conditions involve making your next appointment when you leave your previous one, there's no reason why you wouldn't take advantage of an Advance ticket and save overpaying when you know some time in advance that you will need to travel.

So you'd work backwards from your appointment time, and book the appropriate train ticket. You would allow a reasonable margin for unexpected situations, but there's no justification for having to allow an extra hour, during which you will be sitting around in a waiting room getting fed up.

It's the same with dental appointments, except I don't suppose many people attend a dentist that is a train journey away.
 

cool110

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It's the same with dental appointments, except I don't suppose many people attend a dentist that is a train journey away.

With how rare NHS dentists are in some areas I suspect that there's quite a few people who have moved but not been able to change to a closer dentist.
 

455driver

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Are you saying that the initial TOC'S conductor has authority to allow passengers to travel on the next train to there destination on another TOC?
If you are then your long winding argument that has derailed the thread was pointless.

No, what he is saying is that ticket acceptance has already been arranged and that has been relayed to the Conductor who has passed that information on to the passengers!

Nice try! :roll:
 

reb0118

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And another thing... :lol:

Surely by making all the de-trained passengers, plus would-be boarders, wait for the next hourly service, it will cause that next train to have to carry twice the normal loading. Whereas if they are allowed to disperse between other operators who can get them nearer to their various destinations, it reduces the chance of overcrowding.

This smacks of common sense. This has no place on the railway. Please desist forthwith! (:p)
 
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