Trial of of paper receipts for tickets issued on board the train

[Tetchytyke]

Must have been WAY before that, I'm thinking pre- Serco/Abellio, maybe even pre-privatisation.

It's not that long ago, Northern Spirit/Arriva were definitely still issuing them in summer 2002.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

.... ISTR that APTIS was the fixed ticket printing machine in booking offices and PORTIS was the Guard carried version using a yellow glossy paper ticket roll.

Some smaller stations also used PORTIS/SPORTIS.

Correct, there was also the enhanced version called SPORTIS (Super Portable Ticket Issuing System). I forget what was super about it - possibly card acceptance?

Yep, card payments were not possible with PORTIS.

It's not that long ago, Northern Spirit/Arriva were definitely still issuing them in summer 2002.

I received SPORTIS training when I joined Northern Rail in 2006.

 

[adrock1976]

I remember the PORTIS style tickets issued on the train in the WMPTE area back in the late 1980s/early 1990s.

Furthermore, I have in my collection one from 1989 between Broad Lane (the last station in the WMPTE area) and Hednesford when I took a spin on that line not long after it reopened to passenger services. It was a 2 car Class 115 that operated the shuttle between Walsall and Hednesford back then.

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

Must have been WAY before that, I'm thinking pre- Serco/Abellio, maybe even pre-privatisation. I do remember those tickets vaguely though. Think the last one I got was a child ticket issued by the guard on a 141- that gives an idea of how long ago it was!

I remember seeing them issued on Hull - York services as late as June 2005 which would just be inside the Northern Rail franchise...

 

[Starmill]

I don't think there is any evidence that these tickets will be issued anywhere other than on the train or from mobile revenue operations? We have a thread discussing this already. Fundamentally Avantix is in urgent need of replacement, these will form a part of that replacement. This ought not to be too much of a surprise.

 

[Greenback]

I don't mind if the tickets issued on board use a similar type of paper as PORTIS or SPORTIS did.

I don't feel quite so happy about it being on flimsy paper like I get when I go on a bus these days. Many train tickets have a longer life and a higher value than a bus ticket. They deserve to be stronger and more durable.

 

[lyndhurst25]

History repeating itself. Who remembers the flimsy little square Almex bus-style tickets that you used to get on PayTrains in the 1970s and 80s?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/loose_grip_99/2312764823/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/loose_grip_99/2314356488/in/photostream/

 

[JonathanH]

So what sort of 'stored balance' would you expect people to need on a national rail ITSO PAYG system, so that the correct fare could be deducted at the destination?

Potentially unnecessary if the processing is done in a back office (like it is for contactless payments in London) and you have to pass through a gate to exit the station.

However, it would require a massive amendment to the fare structure.

 

[ag51ruk]

I seem to remember that APTIS and PORTIS were introduced in the '70s following the large airline style tickets for Inter-City journeys. ISTR that APTIS was the fixed ticket printing machine in booking offices and PORTIS was the Guard carried version using a yellow glossy paper ticket roll.

Mid 80s - before that some stations had the INTIS system which produced similar sized tickets to APTIS but on pre-printed ticket stock. The difference between PORTIS and SPORTIS was the addition of the credit card swipe reader in the side I think - don't think PORTIS could take cards.

PORTIS was portable ticket issuing system, SPORTIS Super portable..., APTIS All Purpose ticket issuing system and INTIS Intermediate Ticket Issuing System

 

[Clip]

This style of ticket?

Picture found on Google.

OOh I remember them

I don't understand peoples aversion to this - you get a ticket on a bit of paper and you fold it and put it in your wallet, just like you do with your orange ticket now. Don't think anyone has said anything sensible as a reason against this.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Noting the ever-increasing serried ranks of ticket barrier units at railway stations that have been installed, how much trouble would it take to convert their mechanisms to accept the stated paper tickets?

 

[yorksrob]

A more flexible, cheaper, faster paper ticketing system.



They lost their nerve, sadly. We could have moved to a system of BACS transfers replacing cheques (i.e. push rather than pull). The Germans have done it for years; most of them don't even know what a cheque is.

It's 2016, there is no need whatsoever for any kind of administration to involve the post. The post is now for shifting goods around.

I don't see what's faster and more flexible about it. The current machines can churn out a ticket perfectly quickly which can sit in my wallet.

As for cheques, I find them far and away the most convenient way to pay for railtours, the window cleaner and people to replace missing slates.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Noting the ever-increasing serried ranks of ticket barrier units at railway stations that have been installed, how much trouble would it take to convert their mechanisms to accept the stated paper tickets?

Depends on the barrier. These tickets will, apparently, have a printed barcode to use, so the ticket barriers will need a barcode scanner, software to use the barcode scanner and the right programming logic to act according to the information on the barcode.

It will also be necessary to... what's the right word?.... 'educate' passengers in the art of scanning a ticket rather than trying to squeeze it into the slot for card tickets.

 

[David Goddard]

My main concern is the durability. Bus operators have been using thermal printed tickets for about ten years now, and these are fine to put away once, and then get out again for the return trip, but too much handling, like for a day ticket, and the inevitable folding to fit into a wallet, results in the paper creasing and the print quickly degrading.
With a train ticket which you have to get out and handle at the start and end of each journey, and during for inspections, it will soon get creased or torn and we will run into problems like "you tore it so its invalid" coming from RPIs
The silver lining, I am pleased to see, is that as they are scanned at barriers as opposed to inserted and potentially swallowed, it will be easier to retain for expenses or personal records.
It will be the same problem that we are seeing with shop receipts- I have a receipt for an appliance I bought less than a year ago which has been kept in a drawer but completely faded - not much use for a guarantee!

 

[dave87016]

I think the tickets and machines may be similar to the ones that the conductors have on Blackpool Trams

 

[sefyllian]

Noting the ever-increasing serried ranks of ticket barrier units at railway stations that have been installed, how much trouble would it take to convert their mechanisms to accept the stated paper tickets?

At least some of the barriers at Cardiff Central have already been converted, for the trial on the Valley Lines. There's a square glass panel attached to the front of the barrier where you place your ticket to scan it.

I'm all in favour – it does seem like it will make buying tickets easier. Bear in mind the scanner can read codes off anything, not just receipt-style tickets – eg. smartphone screens and presumably tickets that you could print off yourself at home.

Arriva Trains Wales already have a smartphone app which I use fairly regularly to buy tickets. You can buy tickets whenever you like, then activate them just before going through the barrier. The screen shows a barcode (which I guess can open the barriers, but haven't tried it yet), and also a pulsing colour bar to show to staff if there's no scanner (I've used this method several times with no bother).

You can also buy virtual carnets to store on your phone for a discounted price.

It's all very easy, and totally eliminates queueing at the dreadfully slow ticket machines.

 

[Crossover]

I wonder what their solution for through tickets is though?
Back in January (when this trial was supposed to initially start) I asked and no one at ATW could answer what I should do if I wanted a through ticket.

The way I understood it (this was from a conversation with a guard) through tickets would be available, but that the majority of tickets bought on those trains are for travel within the Valleys. My understanding may be off, though

 

[jon0844]

The barcode readers look like something that you can just ask Cubic to fit to their existing gates (most stations use them it seems) so besides the cost, it seems like a pretty easy modification.

King's Cross have them and when I got an excess ticket with an Aztec code printed on it, I should have tried scanning it at the gate to see what happened..

 

[trainophile]

I agree with concerns about the print fading, particularly if you have bought an Advance ticket three months ago.

Also, while I don't fancy A4 sized "tickets" as I generally keep them in a dedicated slot in my purse (or a ticket wallet, which will presumably become redundant), if they are only the size of a bus ticket they would be easy to lose in a pocket or handbag.

Change for the sake of it?

 

[Wallsendmag]

The barcode readers look like something that you can just ask Cubic to fit to their existing gates (most stations use them it seems) so besides the cost, it seems like a pretty easy modification.

King's Cross have them and when I got an excess ticket with an Aztec code printed on it, I should have tried scanning it at the gate to see what happened..

Nothing would have happened

 

[Marklund]

And if they go near any heat source, the paper blackens.
That'll be handy...

 

[PaxVobiscum]

Scotrail and Great Western Railway are also believed to be rolling out new types of ticketing this year as companies aim to make travelling more flexible.

I was asked to participate in a survey on behalf of ScotRail today

ScotRail is busy developing the next-generation of train ticket to be easier, faster and allow more flexible travel by train and we would like to invite you to help.

Why not click on the survey link below and help steer ScotRail in the right direction?
...(link removed)...
The survey should take around 8 minutes to complete. We look forward to your views and opinions!

If was all about ScotRail's SmartCard though, not paper tickets instead of the standard orange card tickets.

 

[Bungle73]

I often buy a ticket on the train because my nearest station has no facilities (assuming they actually bother to come round, which they often don't, but that's a whole other story). With this new big idea it seems that if I want to purchase a Travelcard, I'm back to having to mess about at a ticket office getting it swapped for a proper card ticket that will work the barriers in London. I thought I'd seen the back of that when they did away with the previous paper tickets, mentioned earlier, a few years ago.........

What a hassle.

It will be the same problem that we are seeing with shop receipts- I have a receipt for an appliance I bought less than a year ago which has been kept in a drawer but completely faded - not much use for a guarantee!

A common misconception. You don't need a receipt to return a faulty item; all you need is a proof of purchase.

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

A common misconception. You don't need a receipt to return a faulty item; all you need is a proof of purchase.

Does that work with Governments too...?

Personally, I hope the trial fails and we stick with card tickets

 

[Starmill]

You hope we stick with obsolete equipment? You do understand that this effectively means it can no longer be repaired I take it. Therefore, this would eventually mean no more tickets could be issued on trains...

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

You hope we stick with obsolete equipment? You do understand that this effectively means it can no longer be repaired I take it. Therefore, this would eventually mean no more tickets could be issued on trains...

I do indeed - I don't like the thought of bus ticket style stuff being used on trains

 

[WelshBluebird]

You hope we stick with obsolete equipment? You do understand that this effectively means it can no longer be repaired I take it. Therefore, this would eventually mean no more tickets could be issued on trains...

Wanting to keep card tickets does not equal wanting to keep obsolete technology / equipment.

No one here is complaining because the trial uses newer equipment or technology. The problem is that the paper receipt like tickets will not be fit for the purpose they will be used for (because they will be too flimsy).

There is no reason at all why new equipment cannot be developed with card tickets in mind.

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

Wanting to keep card tickets does not equal wanting to keep obsolete technology / equipment.

No one here is complaining because the trial uses newer equipment or technology. The problem is that the paper receipt like tickets will not be fit for the purpose they will be used for (because they will be too flimsy).

There is no reason at all why new equipment cannot be developed with card tickets in mind.

I quite agree

 

[rs101]

Wanting to keep card tickets does not equal wanting to keep obsolete technology / equipment.

No one here is complaining because the trial uses newer equipment or technology. The problem is that the paper receipt like tickets will not be fit for the purpose they will be used for (because they will be too flimsy).

There is no reason at all why new equipment cannot be developed with card tickets in mind.

By using standard paper though, there are almost certainly many off the shelf printers available from the likes of Zebra. Much easier and than having to develop custom hardware for unique paper size and type.

I'd have thought a logical solution would be to use paper tickets for singles/returns/ one day tickets plus a smart card and app for season tickets.


As for the barcode scanners, they sound very like the system which Eurostar has been using for years. That seems to work we!l enough with both print at home and normal tickets.

 

[Starmill]

Wanting to keep card tickets does not equal wanting to keep obsolete technology / equipment.

Although hoping that the trials fail does effectively equate to that. Or are you suggesting that that is a practical response?

No one here is complaining because the trial uses newer equipment or technology. The problem is that the paper receipt like tickets will not be fit for the purpose they will be used for (because they will be too flimsy).

Hm. I think you might want to have a closer read of someone's posts!

There is no reason at all why new equipment cannot be developed with card tickets in mind.

Absolutely, I'd prefer that too. Indeed, if we aren't having other wholesale changes I find it a bit strange we're going for a whole other load of different ways of issuing and designing tickets, but then such is 'mother railway'...