Trial of of paper receipts for tickets issued on board the train

[WelshBluebird]

Although hoping that the trials fail does effectively equate to that. Or are you suggesting that that is a practical response?

Hm. I think you might want to have a closer read of someone's posts!

Absolutely, I'd prefer that too. Indeed, if we aren't having other wholesale changes I find it a bit strange we're going for a whole other load of different ways of issuing and designing tickets, but then such is 'mother railway'...

In terms of hoping the trials fail, I read that comment as the trials regarding flimsy paper tickets. Personally I hope they fail too and ToC's realise that receipt style tickets just are not up to the job, and so go back to the drawing board and come up with a new solution which uses more durable ticket stock.

By using standard paper though, there are almost certainly many off the shelf printers available from the likes of Zebra. Much easier and than having to develop custom hardware for unique paper size and type.

I'd have thought a logical solution would be to use paper tickets for singles/returns/ one day tickets plus a smart card and app for season tickets.


As for the barcode scanners, they sound very like the system which Eurostar has been using for years. That seems to work we!l enough with both print at home and normal tickets.

Which is great for the ToC and all that, but really not good at all for the passenger who now will have a much higher chance of his/her ticket not being valid because it has become illegible.

For one day tickets (so normal singles, day returns, day travel tickets etc) then while I still do not like the regression from where we are now, I agree that it is just about acceptable to use receipt style tickets. But for period returns they simply are not good enough IMO.

In terms of barcodes I have no problem with that being a new way of reading the ticket (instead of the mag strip). Hell perhaps we will actually get to a situation where the actual ticket restrictions can be encoded on there and staff can see all the restriction text when scanning the ticket. Imagine how much better that will be!

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

In terms of hoping the trials fail, I read that comment as the trials regarding flimsy paper tickets. Personally I hope they fail too and ToC's realise that receipt style tickets just are not up to the job, and so go back to the drawing board and come up with a new solution which uses more durable ticket stock.

That was exactly what I meant

In terms of barcodes I have no problem with that being a new way of reading the ticket (instead of the mag strip). Hell perhaps we will actually get to a situation where the actual ticket restrictions can be encoded on there and staff can see all the restriction text when scanning the ticket. Imagine how much better that will be!

If barriers are modified to accept these barcodes, I hope they will have the "Ranger Glitch" fixed as, certainly with Northern rovers and rangers, automatic barriers do not read them at all and throw up error or invalid route notices. I just get round that by getting the ticket guy to pass me through on his override card

 

[yorksrob]

You hope we stick with obsolete equipment? You do understand that this effectively means it can no longer be repaired I take it. Therefore, this would eventually mean no more tickets could be issued on trains...

I find it hard to believe that a society that can send a man to the moon and invent a super computer can't manufacture another portable magna-stripe printer.

Also, if this is so obsolete, why can't they just print the barcode on the back of the ticket where the magna-stripe currently is

 

[30907]

I have just spent a few days in CZ and SK. All the tickets I was issued with had QR or similar codes (though I'm not sure they were being read) and were on coated paper.

The Slovak ones were even CC size, with an enormous amount of info, though the "route" print was minuscule.
The Czech ones (day rovers) were double that size, so had to be folded, and flimsier, but survived repeated inspection unscathed.

While I don't think they'd be suited to a long period season, I'd recommend experiencing the new tickets before deciding that they are the best/worst thing since Thomas Edmundson.

 

[edwin_m]

As for the barcode scanners, they sound very like the system which Eurostar has been using for years. That seems to work we!l enough with both print at home and normal tickets.

My experience with Eurostar is that you have to hold the ticket against the window on the barrier for several seconds before it actually registers. It probably doesn't help that the ticket is larger than the window and I think the window is slightly recessed. This would be far too slow for a busy city gateline like Cardiff.

However, Eurostar may have a previous generation of technology and newer versions such as those used in automated supermarket checkouts may be better.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

You hope we stick with obsolete equipment? You do understand that this effectively means it can no longer be repaired I take it. Therefore, this would eventually mean no more tickets could be issued on trains...

Why would we want to go from a current "obsolete" technology that we know can operate all installed ticket barriers, to an older technology that doesn't?

By using standard paper though, there are almost certainly many off the shelf printers available from the likes of Zebra. Much easier and than having to develop custom hardware for unique paper size and type....

The technology for mobile card printing already exists (and the railway is not the only place that has card size tickets). Why develop a new ticket design to fit around existing hardware, when we have existing ticket stock that uses existing hardware?

....I'd have thought a logical solution would be to use paper tickets for singles/returns/ one day tickets plus a smart card and app for season tickets....

Why would we need paper tickets if we have apps and smartcards?

 

[LexyBoy]

With smartcards rolled out, the paper offering can be reduced to Anytime Day Singles only - then the durability issue won't be a problem.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And if they go near any heat source, the paper blackens.
That'll be handy...

So do orange tickets.


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[rs101]

In terms of hoping the trials fail, I read that comment as the trials regarding flimsy paper tickets. Personally I hope they fail too and ToC's realise that receipt style tickets just are not up to the job, and so go back to the drawing board and come up with a new solution which uses more durable ticket stock.



Which is great for the ToC and all that, but really not good at all for the passenger who now will have a much higher chance of his/her ticket not being valid because it has become illegible.

For one day tickets (so normal singles, day returns, day travel tickets etc) then while I still do not like the regression from where we are now, I agree that it is just about acceptable to use receipt style tickets. But for period returns they simply are not good enough IMO.

In terms of barcodes I have no problem with that being a new way of reading the ticket (instead of the mag strip). Hell perhaps we will actually get to a situation where the actual ticket restrictions can be encoded on there and staff can see all the restriction text when scanning the ticket. Imagine how much better that will be!

First buses have used flimsy paper tickets for decades round here. I used to use them 5 days a week commuting to work and the return ticket survived perfectly well in the wallet every day.

Agree on period returns - that's why I suggested a smartcard/app type solution.

 

[jon0844]

I do indeed - I don't like the thought of bus ticket style stuff being used on trains

The tickets I get on buses now are on security paper, don't go black under heat (don't think they'll fade at all, even after many years let alone a week or two) and seem fine. Perhaps there should be new ticket wallets to store them in though!

 

[Wallsendmag]

With smartcards rolled out, the paper offering can be reduced to Anytime Day Singles only - then the durability issue won't be a problem.

How can a smartcard give you your reservation?

 

[LexyBoy]

How can a smartcard give you your reservation?

Why not? You have a seat assigned when you book which is tied to the ticket held on your card. You'd get an email with the details.

(I'm not a fan of "smart" ticketing as it's being implemented BTW, just outlining a possible direction things could go).

 

[Wallsendmag]

Why not? You have a seat assigned when you book which is tied to the ticket held on your card. You'd get an email with the details.

(I'm not a fan of "smart" ticketing as it's being implemented BTW, just outlining a possible direction things could go).

So why not have the ticket on the email and cut out the smart card altogether ?


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[island]

I do indeed - I don't like the thought of bus ticket style stuff being used on trains

The other thread about the new ticketing equipment stated that traditional tickets would be available through a new portable printer, for TOCs who wished to so equip staff.

 

[Haywain]

The other thread about the new ticketing equipment stated that traditional tickets would be available through a new portable printer, for TOCs who wished to so equip staff.

We're getting a major crossover between this thread and the Avantic replacement thread, and at risk of making it worse I will just say that I am sure that guards/conductors/RPIs etc at TOCs that decide to use such printers will be really chuffed to be carrying around a big boxy printer, especially when compared with the printers used for paper roll tickets.

 

[Clip]

Im amazed that posters are already claiming that they will 'wear out' and the ink may 'dissapear' before they have even got one in their hands to properly comment on the new tickets. What forsight they have so with that in mind can I have the lottery numbers for tonight please?

 

[Clip]

I find it hard to believe that a society that can send a man to the moon and invent a super computer can't manufacture another portable magna-stripe printer.

Also, if this is so obsolete, why can't they just print the barcode on the back of the ticket where the magna-stripe currently is

The Avantix is quite a cumbersome bit of kit for staff to be lugging about and its the orange card tickets and the holder which make it so as they take up so much space so something that is smaller and more portable, in the form of printed recipets is a lot better for staff too.

 

[BHXDMT]

We're getting a major crossover between this thread and the Avantic replacement thread, and at risk of making it worse I will just say that I am sure that guards/conductors/RPIs etc at TOCs that decide to use such printers will be really chuffed to be carrying around a big boxy printer, especially when compared with the printers used for paper roll tickets.

Our Avantix replacement is planned to use orange stock, and the new "portable printer" is supposed to be over half the size of the current one, so I don't see any complaints - the whole kit (Phone/Printer/Chip & Pin) is considerably lighter than what we carry now. It sits comfortably in an over the shoulder harness too.

Sorry for taking this further towards the Avantix replacement thread...

 

[Greenback]

The Avantix is quite a cumbersome bit of kit for staff to be lugging about and its the orange card tickets and the holder which make it so as they take up so much space so something that is smaller and more portable, in the form of printed recipets is a lot better for staff too.

That is a fair comment. While I have my concerns, and I don't like the sound of this purely from the way the story is written, I'm prepared to see what happens before I reach a verdict one way or the other.

 

[Sprinter153]

Our Avantix replacement is planned to use orange stock, and the new "portable printer" is supposed to be over half the size of the current one, so I don't see any complaints - the whole kit (Phone/Printer/Chip & Pin) is considerably lighter than what we carry now. It sits comfortably in an over the shoulder harness too.

Sorry for taking this further towards the Avantix replacement thread...

The jury is out around these parts. Credit card stock and paper roll peripherals will be rolled out dependant on location. My understanding is that depots that issue high numbers of travelcards on their trains will retain CCST.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Im amazed that posters are already claiming that they will 'wear out' and the ink may 'dissapear' before they have even got one in their hands to properly comment on the new tickets. What forsight they have so with that in mind can I have the lottery numbers for tonight please?

My issue is more the fact that paper receipt style tickets are lot more easier ripped / damaged by moisture etc than the card current tickets are made of. As you rightly state, we can't comment on how well the tickets will remain readable until we actually try them.
I am back at my parents (which is on the line Arriva are trialling this on) in a couple of weeks so hopefully I'll be able to give an answer on that issue then (if nobody can beforehand).

 

[Dent]

Im amazed that posters are already claiming that they will 'wear out' and the ink may 'dissapear' before they have even got one in their hands to properly comment on the new tickets. What forsight they have so with that in mind can I have the lottery numbers for tonight please?

Thermal receipt printers are nothing new. The issues with this type of printer, including the natural fading, are already known from the various applications they are already used in.

 

[Haywain]

My issue is more the fact that paper receipt style tickets are lot more easier ripped / damaged by moisture etc than the card current tickets are made of. As you rightly state, we can't comment on how well the tickets will remain readable until we actually try them.

You accept that you can't comment on how readable the tickets will be until you have tried them, but seem willing to make a judgement on how well they will wear without seeing them first. Perhaps it would be better to wait on both counts.

 

[yorksrob]

You accept that you can't comment on how readable the tickets will be until you have tried them, but seem willing to make a judgement on how well they will wear without seeing them first. Perhaps it would be better to wait on both counts.

I'm inclined towards the old adage, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Also, I think it's reasonable to assume that these paper tickets won't be the same size and shape of the existing stock, and therefore won't wear as well as the previous ones simply on account of not fitting in ticket wallets.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The Avantix is quite a cumbersome bit of kit for staff to be lugging about and its the orange card tickets and the holder which make it so as they take up so much space so something that is smaller and more portable, in the form of printed recipets is a lot better for staff too.

But then a lighter machine will presumably result in less muscular guards who are less able to slam doors, shift obstructions and subdue recalcitrant passengers.

 

[Clip]

You accept that you can't comment on how readable the tickets will be until you have tried them, but seem willing to make a judgement on how well they will wear without seeing them first. Perhaps it would be better to wait on both counts.

Exactly.

But then a lighter machine will presumably result in less muscular guards who are less able to slam doors, shift obstructions and subdue recalcitrant passengers.

As long as they have their ready brek each morning theyll be fine

 

[XAM2175]

I'm inclined towards the old adage, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Forgive me for having what might be a bit of an uninformed outsider's opinion on the matter, being very new to the railways scene in the UK, but from my experience overseas and working in ticketing for other fields... it's not so much that anything is really broken now, but that it will become so.

Magnetic-stripe ticketing has fallen out of favour in a lot of places, and will continue to fall out of favour in many more, because it has inherent costs and complexities that become more and more burdensome as technology and customer expectations advance.

Obviously there's a massive sunk cost right now in mag-stripe equipment and to replace it overnight is infeasible - but maintaining it into the future is going to also cost a lot, and cost more than in the past because the volume of installed base is decreasing. Parts will become more expensive, and harder to find as manufacturers discontinue new production. And because they mag readers are mechanical devices, they'll always have a limited life-span and ongoing maintenance costs.

Barcodes, as seen in the airline industry after they ditched magnetic boarding passes, are an excellent compromise between manually-inspected paper tickets and a full contactless rollout that still allows magnetic stock to be let go.

I'm not seeing anything in the original article that says anything about the end of RSP 9x99 cardstock for anything other than on-train sales, and I'd be genuinely curious what proportion of onboard sales are for tickets other than singles or day-returns... for which users should have little fear of limited durability.

Going forward from this trial, and with Aztec codes already being included on new-style tickets, it's obvious that NR already have plans in place to wind-down the use of magnetic tickets. Nothing in that says cardstock tickets have to go as well, especially bearing in mind that non-magnetic stock will be vastly cheaper to purchase.

 

[najaB]

Forgive me for having what might be a bit of an uninformed outsider's opinion on the matter...

Never a problem with opinions from people who are bringing a reasoned argument to the table.

It is probably more accurate to say "If it ain't broke, don't replace it with something that's broke."

If we're taking thermal paper tickets such as are commonly used for bus tickets, then I agree with all the posters who are opposed to their introduction. I don't even think they are fit for purpose for bus day tickets - having had the experience of wet/torn tickets being refused by drivers (or only accepted after some remonstration).

Considering that we're also talking about period returns or seven day seasons bought on board which can easily be be £50+ then, as passengers, we deserve something more sturdy and substantial. I agree that the replacement doesn't necessarily need to incorporate magnetic stripe technology.

 

[Dai Corner]

Bus companies have been using these for decades to protect weekly (and longer period?) tickets. The ticket is sandwiched between a transparent adhesive cover and a thin card backing.

http://4.share.photo.xuite.net/mayhsiao513/146c9b8/6449190/476028306_m.jpg

(Not my picture)

 

[Mojo]

It's not that long ago, Northern Spirit/Arriva were definitely still issuing them in summer 2002.

I have in my collection a few tickets issued on the Valley Lines in 2005 and remember they were Sportis style tickets but printed from an Avantix machine.

 

[najaB]

Bus companies have been using these for decades to protect weekly (and longer period?) tickets. The ticket is sandwiched between a transparent adhesive cover and a thin card backing.

That could be suitable, though they can be a bit of a pain sometimes if the ticket sticks to the adhesive portion before you've got it into the right position.