Tried to pay by card on a Northern Rail Train

[Rianoa]

Hi, here is what happened on my journey I'm not sure what I should do.

I arrived at Beverley Train station and didn't have time to purchase a ticket I got on the train hoping to pay by card which was declined despite having the money in my account. The conductor then gave me an unpaid fare notice, I asked whether I would need to buy a ticket for the train back and he told me that I wouldn't need to I would just need to show the form on the way back.

On the train back I gave the conductor the form and he said it wasn't for the journey back and I would need to buy a ticket, I then explained that I was told it was for the journey back as well. He went on to say that they are only for one way, I offered to try my card again which then he said that he wouldn't and that he was going to take my details. He came back and handed me the form and said "Not only do you have to pay for the journey, you will have to go to court as well." I tried speaking to him once I was off the train and explained I was told it was for a return journey and couldn't I have another form, he then said "I'm not willing to do that, they are only for on the spot. You should of bought a ticket at the station." Then I walked away.

If you have any advice it is appreciated, thanks.

 

[Swirlz]

You should pay the Unpaid fare notice and consider yourself very luck you aren't being prosecuted AND that you seem to have gotten a free ride on the way back too!

You committed a criminal offence by boarding the train without a valid ticket, when prior facilities existed to purchase one, (i.e. self service machine/ticket office etc).

 

[bb21]

Unpaid Fare Notices are indeed only normally issued for single journeys. Could you have another look at the notice itself and see if there is any clue as to whether it has been issued for a single journey or a return journey?

I believe that you have a case if you were indeed told by the first member of staff that it was for the return journey, however it would be your words against theirs if there is a dispute and it does not look good if the UPFN was only issued for a single journey as the story would appear a lot less plausible.

 

[GadgetMan]

UFN should only be issued for a Single journey.

What was the amount on the UFN? Has the first Guard put the price of a Single on the Notice or the price of a Return?

 

[Monty]

While the inspector is right on saying you should have purchased a ticket at the station if the Guard issued you with a UFN for a return journey that should be the end of the matter. Double check the UFN and see if it is written anywhere on the notice about it being for a return journey. Check the fare due also with the cost of an actual return ticket for your journey and see if it's the same.

My advice would be to pay the UFN, perhaps ask IRCAS to send you a receipt of payment then await further correspondence from the Train Operating Company concerned. If they do write to you asking for your version of events politely and calmly explain to them your predicament and show them proof of payment of the UFN.

I don't know that the official line is with UFNs these days. But I would occasionally issue notices clearly marked RETURN with the correct fare displayed, to school children who had forgotten their season tickets and had no funds to purchase a ticket with to get to and from school. Anyway I hope this somewhat helps you, try not to panic too much and let us know how you get on.

 

[455driver]

There is the possibility that your card does not permit "off line" payments (which is what happens on board trains as there is no wi-fi connection) and so it doesnt matter how much money is in the bank, that is down to your bank and not the railways.

It is your responsibility to buy a ticket before boarding a train (not having enough time is your problem as you should have got there earlier) or, at the very least, having a viable way to pay on board and a "on-line" only card is not one one of those.

Pay the UFN and hope that is the end of it but if they decide to prosecute there isnt much defence if you didnt check the UFN despite what you say the guard said to you and then it would be a question of you asking for an out of court settlement. but the TOC is under no obligation to offer that option.

 

[michael769]

and a "on-line" only card is not one one of those.

I do not agree. Train Companies claim to accept these cards:

All National Rail train companies accept the major cards such as Visa, Visa Delta, MasterCard, Maestro and Amex. Some train companies also accept Diners Club International, Solo and Electron.

No mention is made that online only cards are not acceptible.

(Source).

And are thus bound by the contract they they enter into with their passengers to accept such cards.

The fact that ToCs choose not to supply their staff with card terminals that are fit for purpose is not the passenger's problem and they should not be penalised for what is an industry wide failing.

However getting back on topic, as the OP appears to have failed to show a valid ticket on request, after having boarded at a station with ticket selling facilities this does not assist the OP who is advised to pay the UFN.

OP can you confirm if the station from which you began the return journey manned or unmanned? Also is the value of the UFN the value or a normal return or single fare (if you care to share the destination station and the value of the UFN someone ill work it out)?

 

[185]

I'm assuming (perhaps wrong) it may be Beverley-Hull.

Beverley is open 7am-7pm Mon Fri; 7-1.30pm Sats; Shut Sundays.
Hull is 5am-8pm Mon Sat; 8pm-7pm Sundays.

Northern Rail's own Website suggests it has no TVMs or booking office either, whilst NRE correctly states the opposite.

Originally, Northern's UPFNs used to be for single and return journeys with an instruction given to offer returns only in the absolute most deserving circumstances. I hear that has changed recently.

 

[ainsworth74]

Northern Rail's own Website suggests it has no TVMs or booking office either, whilst NRE correctly states the opposite.

Northern's website is wrong there is at least one TVM at Beverley.

 

[IanXC]

Northern's website is wrong there is at least one TVM at Beverley.

There is indeed 1 TVM at Beverley, located on the Hull bound platform (the booking office being on the Bridlington bound platform).

 

[island]

Did you not have any cash on you on either journey?

 

[455driver]

Cash is sooooo last year, I was in the paper shop on Saturday and the "person" in front of me wanted to buy a twix with a credit card! :roll:

What is the problem with having a few quid in your pocket?

 

[175001]

UFN's are now valid on return journeys with NR. Looks like the guard hasn't had the latest brief.

 

[Deerfold]

Cash is sooooo last year, I was in the paper shop on Saturday and the "person" in front of me wanted to buy a twix with a credit card! :roll:

What is the problem with having a few quid in your pocket?

Card suppliers are increasingly suggesting to people they use their cards for smaller purchases.

I have a "wavepay" card which I was entered into a prize draw competition every time I used it like that.

Then there's Northern card-only ticket machines where one of my regular journeys is under £2...

 

[maniacmartin]

Cash is sooooo last year, I was in the paper shop on Saturday and the "person" in front of me wanted to buy a twix with a credit card! :roll:

What is the problem with having a few quid in your pocket?

Tell that to Northern Rail and their TVMs

 

[455driver]

The card only TVMs are because some "people" like to save Northern (and other TOCs) the trouble of emptying them and so do it for them, normally at about 3AM.

The reason card issuers want you to use it for small purchases is because they charge the retailer for accepting the card, the retailer is the loser.

 

[jon0844]

Cash is sooooo last year, I was in the paper shop on Saturday and the "person" in front of me wanted to buy a twix with a credit card! :roll:

What is the problem with having a few quid in your pocket?

I'll gladly pay for everything with a contactless card if I could. It's absolutely ideal for things like the above, and means you could - in theory - never carry cash at all.

Businesses get charged quite a lot of cash handling these days, so perhaps those small 'micro' payments via contactless work out cheaper in the long run (I have no idea how much merchants are charged, but assume it's a percentage with no minimum fee).

I believe this is the real reason FCC decided to return to making its cash machines free, as it is an effective way of managing cash without having to bank it and get charged. I'm sure FCC gets charged something by the company providing the ATM, but it must be less than that of a bank.

 

[pottyy]

i do beleive that northern rail can issue unpaid fair tickets for returns aswel.

 

[Rianoa]

I went to Hull to say goodbye to my boyfriend who's train was from Hull, said goodbye got the train back home. I didn't think to get any money out since I was told it was for a return, I have never been given a unpaid fares notice before. I usually pay before I get on the train, this time I wanted to pay on the train but my card was declined. The amount on the slip was the price of a return.

 

[sarahj]

Of the cards that get declined on the train I'd say top of the list are Nat West, followed by Santander.* On the other hand, If you card on the back says Electronic use only it must be used by a machine thats hard wired into the system. If your card is one of the load up and use cards it will also never be accepted on the train.

*There is a 'policy' on southern due to this, but i will not go into it here.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Ufn's can be issued for returns but ONLY when the card has been declined. The ufn has to state this. The guard who said it was for single journies was correct until about a year or so ago when they changed it because of the amount of online transaction only cards being used.

 

[the sniper]

Did you not have any cash on you on either journey?

Or any National Transport Tokens/Postal Orders?! Unbelievable...


OP, ignore my post. Rubbish in-joke.

 

[Anvil1984]

This problem could have arisen because of the fact that TPE staff ork a couple of Northern diagrams along the Hull to Scarborough line. The correct answer is that Northern policy allows a return UFN due to a declined card and its a Northern service. Im just wondering if this was a TPE conductor working the Northern service and applying TPEs policy due to forgetting the difference

 

[causton]

Cash is sooooo last year, I was in the paper shop on Saturday and the "person" in front of me wanted to buy a twix with a credit card! :roll:

What is the problem with having a few quid in your pocket?

Spending that "few quid" then having no money in your pocket is the problem

...I personally don't understand people who have a giant stack of notes (hundreds of pounds worth of £20s or £50s) in their pocket which they use to pull out and pay with, but there you go!

 

[455driver]

I'll gladly pay for everything with a contactless card if I could. It's absolutely ideal for things like the above, and means you could - in theory - never carry cash at all.

Who said anything about a wave-pay or contactless card (which are both good ideas), he wanted to pay with a Halifax credit card!

 

[IanXC]

This problem could have arisen because of the fact that TPE staff ork a couple of Northern diagrams along the Hull to Scarborough line. The correct answer is that Northern policy allows a return UFN due to a declined card and its a Northern service. Im just wondering if this was a TPE conductor working the Northern service and applying TPEs policy due to forgetting the difference

I also suspect this may be a possible explanation.

Rianoa - not sure if you noticed what company they worked for? We would recommend you don't post the times of the trains you were on - your PM facility is now activated, you can PM me the times so I can check this possibility out if you'd like?

 

[island]

Of the cards that get declined on the train I'd say top of the list are Nat West, followed by Santander.* On the other hand, If you card on the back says Electronic use only it must be used by a machine thats hard wired into the system. If your card is one of the load up and use cards it will also never be accepted on the train.

*There is a 'policy' on southern due to this, but i will not go into it here.

Halifax has now started issuing online-only Visa debit cards without specific indication on the card.

 

[TG]

Unpaid Fare Notices are indeed only normally issued for single journeys. Could you have another look at the notice itself and see if there is any clue as to whether it has been issued for a single journey or a return journey?

I believe that you have a case if you were indeed told by the first member of staff that it was for the return journey, however it would be your words against theirs if there is a dispute and it does not look good if the UPFN was only issued for a single journey as the story would appear a lot less plausible.

UFN's can be issued for return journeys if the reason for issuing them is "card declined" the guard would fill the form in and in the box whe they write the price, mark it as "return" the price written in the box would also be a clue to the guard on the return journey (£6.30 for a single beverley to hull or £6.50 for a return i believe)

secondly, you boarded at a staffed station which also has a TVM machine on the up platform.... not having time is not a valid excuse for boarding without a ticket (you wouldnt board a plane and say, sorry i didnt have time to buy a ticket!!)

another point (now im not accusing you here) but SOME passengers will tell a guard anything "oh the last guard said that would get me back too" when in fact they only requested a single fare on the UFN and thought they would blag it back.... guards know their fares (especially on that route) so take this as a learning curve and next time, buy a ticket before you board!!

chances are the guard on your return journey was a scarborough based TPE guard (they have a different policy regarding UPNs) all hull based guards have recently been issued with new style UFN pads which actually have a box specifically for declined cards....

as stated above, cards decline for a whole bunch of reasons, the most common being the "off-line transaction limit" cards such as visa electron and solo (and the subsequent cards which have replaced these but are still the same thing) will always decline as they are "on-line only" cards which the TOC clearly states are not accepted (there are posters on some trains and at stations) other types decline as the off-line transaction limit is low and unless they bave used the card for a wired transaction, it will decline as a security feature to the card holder.....

 

[Ferret]

I do not agree. Train Companies claim to accept these cards:



No mention is made that online only cards are not acceptible.

(Source).

And are thus bound by the contract they they enter into with their passengers to accept such cards.

A contract to accept cards? I beg your pardon?!

 

[michael769]

A contract to accept cards? I beg your pardon?!

See Posts 70-83 of this thread