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Trivia: lines which are open but really shouldn't be?

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Howardh

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PROVISO; but you're darned glad they are!

Georgemas - Thurso for me. Can't possibly make any money, probably costing £m's - watched the driver's eye view on youtube and wondered just how many are on the train? Single track, and the major destination (Inverness) looks like it might be quicker to jog there!

But by the heck, I'm glad it's still alive and is on my must-do list.

Hopefully someone on here can chip in and say the trains are packed and it makes loads of money!

But what lines are out there that wouldn't pass the Beeching Test today?
 
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185143

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Loads!
Heart of Wales line-not sure I can stomach that long on a brick though-still need it!
Brigg Line- sorry Sheff'd Victoria!
Cumbrian Coast? Not sure as those trains are rammed at times, especially northbound on a Saturday!
 

deltic08

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PROVISO; but you're darned glad they are!

Georgemas - Thurso for me. Can't possibly make any money, probably costing £m's - watched the driver's eye view on youtube and wondered just how many are on the train? Single track, and the major destination (Inverness) looks like it might be quicker to jog there!

But by the heck, I'm glad it's still alive and is on my must-do list.

Hopefully someone on here can chip in and say the trains are packed and it makes loads of money!

But what lines are out there that wouldn't pass the Beeching Test today?

Conversely there are lines closed by Beeching that should be open today.

Delving into closure of the Harrogate-Ripon-Northallerton line I discovered that the case put forward by Beeching was pure lies and evil. The line was making sufficient profit to keep open but he lied about operating costs so that a duplicate route could be closed. He must have been paid on commission.
 

DarloRich

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Conversely there are lines closed by Beeching that should be open today.

Delving into closure of the Harrogate-Ripon-Northallerton line I discovered that the case put forward by Beeching was pure lies and evil. The line was making sufficient profit to keep open but he lied about operating costs so that a duplicate route could be closed. He must have been paid on commission.

Why should it still be open?

I am sure it would be a useful diversionary route and a pleasant rural line but it serves nowhere. Trust me i lived in Northallerton for years. I cant believe there was any long term economic case for maintaining that line.

Ripon is a lovely little market town with a superb cathedral and a great racecourse but only 16/17000 people live there. Northallerton is a similar size and i think is only still on the railway network by virtue of being a junction on the East Coast Main line. OK with a railway Ripon may be a slightly bigger town and be more attractive to the Leeds commuter but there is little else to serve.
 

Murph

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Georgemas - Thurso for me. Can't possibly make any money, probably costing £m's - watched the driver's eye view on youtube and wondered just how many are on the train? Single track, and the major destination (Inverness) looks like it might be quicker to jog there!

With a branch like that one, I don't think you can really evaluate it so simply. It's the rail link for the Orkney Islands as well as Thurso. Add in the tourist value, and there's a lot more to it than just the financials. It's one of those cases where you absolutely have to evaluate it in terms of big & wide picture overall value to the nation and the social aspect of keeping a reasonably sized population (Thurso + Orkney) directly connected to the network.
 

GrimsbyPacer

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Dr Beeching's reports were way worse than what happened.
His second report (I think) suggested shutting all lines:
West of Plymouth.
Between the ECML and the GEML.
North of Aberdeen.
In Wales except for Swansea to Newport.
The Midland Mainline south of Leicester.
To Blackpool, Berwick, Barrow, Skegness, Sunderland and Middlesbrough.
And Kent was to have only one line.

Rail should always be kept open. It help the economy of the places served, and without branches the mainlines would be alot less profitable. And don't forget freight.

That said I think the Doncaster to Lincoln service is not essential as the Northern Rail service to Sheffield serves the same places, just over a longer route. The St Ives branch seems rather short and easy to replace with a bus. But if I had to close a line it'll be the line in Norfolk that only serves the Berney Arms pub. Which will probably shut too.
 
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muddythefish

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Why should it still be open?

I am sure it would be a useful diversionary route and a pleasant rural line but it serves nowhere. Trust me i lived in Northallerton for years. I cant believe there was any long term economic case for maintaining that line.

Ripon is a lovely little market town with a superb cathedral and a great racecourse but only 16/17000 people live there. Northallerton is a similar size and i think is only still on the railway network by virtue of being a junction on the East Coast Main line. OK with a railway Ripon may be a slightly bigger town and be more attractive to the Leeds commuter but there is little else to serve.

What a daft post.

A town of 15,000 plus should have a railway station; in fact any sizeable community should.

I would imagine may Ripon people work in Leeds and would commute by train if the rail link were still there. The line would also be a very useful as a diversionary route.

As to the title of the thread, apart from old industrial lines to collieries and the like, no railway line should be closed.
 
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GrimsbyPacer

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What a daft post.

A town of 15,000 plus should have a railway station; in fact any sizeable community should.

I would imagine may Ripon people work in Leeds and would commute by train if the rail link were still there. The line would also be a very useful as a diversionary route.

As to the title of the thread, apart from old industrial lines to colleries and the like, no railway should be closed.

I would like to add that the ATOC report Connecting Communities looked into reopening lines to towns with over 15k population. So closing a line like that would be seen as a mistake nowadays.
 
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Murph

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I would like to add that the ATOC report Connecting Communities looked into reopening lines to towns with over 15k population. So closing a line like that would be seen as a mistake nowadays.

Interesting, I didn't know that. In that case, the Thurso line should be extremely safe, as it serves 28,000 (7900 in Thurso, 20,100 on the Orkney Islands). If anything, once you add in the 7100 in Wick, they should possibly consider a more frequent Thurso-Inverness (via Wick) service.
 

deltic08

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Why should it still be open?

I am sure it would be a useful diversionary route and a pleasant rural line but it serves nowhere. Trust me i lived in Northallerton for years. I cant believe there was any long term economic case for maintaining that line.

Ripon is a lovely little market town with a superb cathedral and a great racecourse but only 16/17000 people live there. Northallerton is a similar size and i think is only still on the railway network by virtue of being a junction on the East Coast Main line. OK with a railway Ripon may be a slightly bigger town and be more attractive to the Leeds commuter but there is little else to serve.

Do you have a couple of hours?

Beeching only noted passenger takings at Ripon booking office yet there was a freight yard at Ripon, ordnance factory nearby and large amounts of army vehicles and troop trains from Ripon Garrison not paid through Ripon station farebox.

The evil side of Beeching was in the fact that the operating costs of these trains and even those through passenger and freight trains not stopping
between Harrogate and Northallerton were added to the debit column making the line look on paper as if it was running at a loss of £5,000 annually when in fact it was making a profit of £3,000 annually.

Operating costs of these trains was not saved by closing the line as they were diverted via York. In fact operating costs were greater as the route via York is 15 miles longer. This was not considered in the profit and loss columns.

There were many pigeon specials each year using the freight yard for release of the pigeons. Not one was credited to revenue of the line.

Many race specials were operated from the West Riding to Ripon Races. Again, these specials were not credited to Ripon farebox but were added to the operating side of the line in the debit column. When the line closed all this revenue was lost to BR as the business went by road coach.

As for to-day, a demand forecast was done in 2004. It was estimated that due to the large amount of daily commuting to Harrogate and Leeds, 0.73 million would use a reopened station at Ripon annually. Very similar to the actual footfall for Skipton in the same year. There has been 64% growth in rail footfall in the Leeds City Region since 2004.

ATOC in its "Connecting Communities" Report in 2009 suggested a BCR for reinstating Harrogate-Ripon as high as 4.3. Ripon is planned to expand from 17,000 to 25,000 by 2025 in the Local Development Framework.

1.2 million visitors visited the five Ripon attractions in 2013. A proportion of these would arrive by rail if the facility was there adding about 90,000 to the annual footfall figure mostly in the Northern franchise area farebox.

The ECML between York and Northallerton closes totally in an emergency for more than two hours on average six times annually. Using Ripon as a diversion route would save Network Rail between £3 and £4m annually. This is important with Port of Tyne importing so much biomass for Aire Valley power stations on the just-in-time principle where a delay of two hors or more is critical and carries penalties.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
What a daft post.

A town of 15,000 plus should have a railway station; in fact any sizeable community should.

I would imagine may Ripon people work in Leeds and would commute by train if the rail link were still there. The line would also be a very useful as a diversionary route.

As to the title of the thread, apart from old industrial lines to collieries and the like, no railway line should be closed.

Thank you for your support.
 
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The Planner

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We need to sticky some sort of Beeching thread as all these "everything must reopen" ones get tedious.
 

Requeststop

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That said I think the Doncaster to Lincoln service is not essential as the Northern Rail service to Sheffield serves the same places, just over a longer route. The St Ives branch seems rather short and easy to replace with a bus. But if I had to close a line it'll be the line in Norfolk that only serves the Berney Arms pub. Which will probably shut too.
Let's cut all services east of Marsh West Junction. Every one can take the bus to the three stations beyond there. Station announcements of services to Great Coates would sound so much better than the present termini. <D
 

GrimsbyPacer

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Let's cut all services east of Marsh West Junction. Every one can take the bus to the three stations beyond there. Station announcements of services to Great Coates would sound so much better than the present termini. <D

They are 4 stations east of that junction: Cleethorpes, New Clee, Docks and Town.. No buses run past Great Coates, Healing or Stallingborough stations and this will destroy Cleethorpes tourism.
If the line is to close Grimsby's 400k users and 300k in Cleethorpes would become unconnected. I think if your reason is to make the destination sound better I'd rather have Cleethorpes renamed Great Coates on Sea than shut.
 

43074

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Dr Beeching's reports were way worse than what happened.
His second report (I think) suggested shutting all lines:
West of Plymouth.
Between the ECML and the GEML.
North of Aberdeen.
In Wales except for Swansea to Newport.
The Midland Mainline south of Leicester.
To Blackpool, Berwick, Barrow, Skegness, Sunderland and Middlesbrough.
And Kent was to have only one line.

Rail should always be kept open. It help the economy of the places served, and without branches the mainlines would be alot less profitable. And don't forget freight.

You have contradicted yourself in the same post... Congratulations.

That was the Serpell Report of 1983.

GrimsbyPacer said:
That said I think the Doncaster to Lincoln service is not essential as the Northern Rail service to Sheffield serves the same places, just over a longer route. The St Ives branch seems rather short and easy to replace with a bus. But if I had to close a line it'll be the line in Norfolk that only serves the Berney Arms pub. Which will probably shut too.

If St Ives was shut there would be upcry from Cornish councils and the tourism board because it is an extremely busy line for tourists and locals alike.

The Doncaster to Lincoln service needs improving to improve connectivity to the North East and Yorkshire from Lincoln, not to mention Lincoln to Doncaster via Sheffield takes an hour extra. Why worsen the rail service in an area where you have acknowledged elsewhere it needs improvement.

The Berney Arms line serves as a useful diversion from the line via Acle which both serve Yarmouth... the borough of which has a population of approx. 90,000.

That said, the Barton branch seems rather short and easy to replace with a bus ;)
 

yorksrob

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Interestingly, Serpell served on the Stedford Committee that appointed Beeching, so they were both singing from the same Hymn sheet.
 

HSTEd

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Saying every line should have stayed open would have resulted in lots of pointless duplications.
Would it, for example, be reasonable to keep the Grantham-Lincoln line open when it serves nowhere and traffic end to end is better carried via Newark?
 

GrimsbyPacer

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You have contradicted yourself in the same post... Congratulations.

That was the Serpell Report of 1983.

If St Ives was shut there would be upcry from Cornish councils and the tourism board because it is an extremely busy line for tourists and locals alike.

The Doncaster to Lincoln service needs improving to improve connectivity to the North East and Yorkshire from Lincoln, not to mention Lincoln to Doncaster via Sheffield takes an hour extra. Why worsen the rail service in an area where you have acknowledged elsewhere it needs improvement.

The Berney Arms line serves as a useful diversion from the line via Acle which both serve Yarmouth... the borough of which has a population of approx. 90,000.

That said, the Barton branch seems rather short and easy to replace with a bus ;)

I didn't contradict myself. I said "I think" it was Beeching's 2nd report as I wasn't certain, thanks for getting the correct report.
I agree that all lines should stay open, I only suggest those lines if any had to go as no stations would close on the Lincoln to Doncaster line and early services are too late already. I know it needs improving. The St Ives line appears to follow near a main road and is shorter than any other rural branch I know.
Surely the Barton branch is better than Berney Arms line. The roads aren't good to replace that line with a bus, look at New Holland and Barrow Haven's poor road links.
If no lines are to be suggested this thread is a waste of time.
 

Greenback

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Saying every line should have stayed open would have resulted in lots of pointless duplications.
Would it, for example, be reasonable to keep the Grantham-Lincoln line open when it serves nowhere and traffic end to end is better carried via Newark?

I firmly believe that some lines had to close, but many were mistakes. Witness the reopenings in places where the lines were left in place for freight that ultimately disappeared altogether or at the least dwindled in importance.

Many local lines here were built to take minerals down to the coast. There was never any real potential for passenger traffic on lines such as Port Talbot to Cymmer or Pontyberem to Kidwelly/Burry Port. Lines such as these were probably doomed once buses and cars began to serve the local populations in a way that rail never could, but others should have been kept open, particularly where cost saving schemes hadn't yet been implemented.
 

Busaholic

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The St Ives branch seems rather short and easy to replace with a bus. .

The St Ives branch line which, for the first time ever, saw over 500,000 passengers use it in 2009, growth which continues? The same branch line which is used to optimum capacity for much of the day, despite a competing bus service which also runs every half hour for most of the day, often with doubledeckers? With no station staffing and minimum facilities, I'm certain this line more than covers its costs. In any case, the slightest accident or roadworks can make a road journey to St Ives a nightmare at any time of the year, especially in the summer months.
 

D6975

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The St Ives branch line which, for the first time ever, saw over 500,000 passengers use it in 2009, growth which continues? The same branch line which is used to optimum capacity for much of the day, despite a competing bus service which also runs every half hour for most of the day, often with doubledeckers? With no station staffing and minimum facilities, I'm certain this line more than covers its costs. In any case, the slightest accident or roadworks can make a road journey to St Ives a nightmare at any time of the year, especially in the summer months.

And don't forget that car parking in St Ives isn't exactly convenient. The only large car park is at the top of the hill, served by a minibus link down into town which stops running at a ridiculously early hour.
Anyone who has gone into St Ives on a Summer sunny Saturday by car will appreciate the fact that the railway takes quite a lot of traffic off the road, without it the roads would be horrendous.
 

Greenback

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The proposal by Grimsby Pacer seems to have been based on the length of the line rather than any direct knowledge or experience. When I last tavelled on it in 2010, a four car class 150 was pretty full. How many buses would be needed to provide similar capacity on the less than ideal local roads?

Sorry, GP, not the best idea in the world!
 

HSTEd

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Really the station carpark needs to be lifted onto a mezzanine/deck above the station so the railway line can be extended another couple hundred metres. Its rather annoying stuck on on the outskirts now.
 
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Busaholic

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And don't forget that car parking in St Ives isn't exactly convenient. The only large car park is at the top of the hill, served by a minibus link down into town which stops running at a ridiculously early hour.
Anyone who has gone into St Ives on a Summer sunny Saturday by car will appreciate the fact that the railway takes quite a lot of traffic off the road, without it the roads would be horrendous.

Doubling the line, or adding a passing loop, if it could be done without detracting from the scenic atmosphere, would seem more probable than closure. With pressure for housing development at Carbis Bay, that would seem to be the best place for doubling, although the station might have to be moved.
 

yorksrob

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Saying every line should have stayed open would have resulted in lots of pointless duplications.
Would it, for example, be reasonable to keep the Grantham-Lincoln line open when it serves nowhere and traffic end to end is better carried via Newark?

Whilst I agree to an extent, I believe the original question referred to lines open now which supposedly should have closed.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The proposal by Grimsby Pacer seems to have been based on the length of the line rather than any direct knowledge or experience. When I last tavelled on it in 2010, a four car class 150 was pretty full. How many buses would be needed to provide similar capacity on the less than ideal local roads?

Sorry, GP, not the best idea in the world!

Indeed. Replacing four carriage trains on a half hourly (at least) timetable with buses is a bad idea.
 

MidnightFlyer

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I would have though Donny-Lincoln, nowadays at least, could be justified strongly with its position as a frequent diversionary route for the ECML and taking an awful lot of freight.

And I agree with everyone else re: St Ives. It's an incredible testament to local and community rail, FGW and the users themselves just how much it has grown over the years. Suggestions of its bustitution are merely just someone looking on a map and going 'Oh my God it's so short!'.
 

sprinterguy

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Cumbrian Coast? Not sure as those trains are rammed at times, especially northbound on a Saturday!
It is always a surprise to me that this line survived, in it's entirety, both the Beeching cuts of the sixties and the lesser round of closures in the early eighties. I would not be surprised if it was the traffic generated by Sellafield and the need to get the workers in and out that has propped up the case for the central section of the line north of Barrow and south of Whitehaven (which was slated for closure under the Beeching report).

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but there are probably a number of other routes now long closed that would also now see a 1 or 2-car multiple unit "rammed" on a Saturday where this was not the case fifty or thirty years ago: See, for example, the narrow reprieve gained by the Settle and Carlisle line, which was under very serious threat in the mid 1980s, and contrast that with how well it is doing now, with a far more regular service of well patronised three and four carriage class 158s and a heavy freight traffic.
 
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Busaholic

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As I am writing this, I am having to revise my plans for leaving Penzance by car because an accident is blocking the A30. This will mean the 17 bus to St Ives will encounter severe delays - the half hourly train service is running perfectly.
 

class26

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I'd imagine with 3 trains per day, and basic old infrastructure with a lot of bullhead rail etc, it's probably not all that expensive to run.

Neil

Its 4 trains a day
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I would have though Donny-Lincoln, nowadays at least, could be justified strongly with its position as a frequent diversionary route for the ECML and taking an awful lot of freight.

And I agree with everyone else re: St Ives. It's an incredible testament to local and community rail, FGW and the users themselves just how much it has grown over the years. Suggestions of its bustitution are merely just someone looking on a map and going 'Oh my God it's so short!'.

and its (Donny - Lincoln line) just had a fortune spent on it !
 
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