Two Together Railcard

[Masboroughlad]

Looked at renewing our Two Together Railcard only to find they are not renewing them. The website says it was just a trial.

Anybody know whether it is likely to be launched nationally? Somehow I doubt it.

That said, I won't be surprised if it had failed. We used ours a lot but it caused so many problems at booking offices, not always on booking websites, not on ticket machines and bemused staff. It was very poorly promoted and badly managed....

Such a shame as it is a good product and has saved us a lot of money. We probably won't use the train so much now.

Another case if the fragmented railway not working.....

 

[transportphoto]

Nope. It was a trial launched in the Centro area (I believe this to just be coincidental and Centro were not direct stakeholders) - there was a thread back when it was discontinued, have a look

TP

 

[yorksrob]

In a way, it's a good idea. But it seems to illustrate to me that a national railcard is required along the lines of a nationwide network card.

Thinking about it logically, pensioners, young people and the disabled (and to an extent, families due to the costs associated with children), have a higher chance of being on a fixed or limited income, so there is a logic in singling them out for special railcard treatment to get them to the product. However, why would couples warrent special treatment over and above singletons ? If anything, a childless couple is likely to have a greater disposable income due to economies of scale in sharing housing costs etc.

 

[IanXC]

In a way, it's a good idea. But it seems to illustrate to me that a national railcard is required along the lines of a nationwide network card.

Thinking about it logically, pensioners, young people and the disabled (and to an extent, families due to the costs associated with children), have a higher chance of being on a fixed or limited income, so there is a logic in singling them out for special railcard treatment to get them to the product.

This could actually be an opportunity for simplification, if there was a nationwide network card, then could other railcards be demised? So saving administration costs, and simplifying ticket checks?

 

[yorksrob]

This could actually be an opportunity for simplification, if there was a nationwide network card, then could other railcards be demised? So saving administration costs, and simplifying ticket checks?

I'd have thought so. As far as I'm aware, they're all around £25 for a third off (although conditions may vary a little).

 

[34D]

I'd have thought so. As far as I'm aware, they're all around £25 for a third off (although conditions may vary a little).

My preference would be for the Gold card to become national once more, thereby rewarding those who pay the most for their commute.

I'd also like to see the Newhaven/Ryde loopholes closed somehow, but not sure how this would work in reality without becoming like a big brother state.

 

[williamus]

It's a shame it's being discontinued but I appreciate the arguments about it not targeting those on lower or fixed incomes.

I bought one in November last year and we've saved a shedload of money and Mrs W has used the train far more than she would have done. I was so impressed with it that when I heard it wasn't being renewed I bought a "second" one before the trial ended in May and although that effectively meant I was paying £28 for six months, it will still be easily worth it. By the time it expires in May next year we will both be eligible for the old dears railcard...

... slightly off topic, but we would have used it even more were it not for the fact that I have an all zones West Midland Network card and Mrs W can travel with me off-peak anywhere in WM for the princely sum of £1 (there are no restrictions on return travel).

There are some good deals about...

 

[yorksrob]

My preference would be for the Gold card to become national once more, thereby rewarding those who pay the most for their commute.

I thought that the gold card was always a NSE thing ? However, I agree that the logic of squeezing as much business out of regular commuters as possible should hold firm throughout the rest of the Country.

 

[John @ home]

My preference would be for the Gold card to become national once more

I thought that the gold card was always a NSE thing ?

British Rail has an Annual Season Ticket Holder's Railcard for a few years in the 1980s. Discounted tickets had the code AST-H.

 

[jon0844]

That said, I won't be surprised if it had failed. We used ours a lot but it caused so many problems at booking offices, not always on booking websites, not on ticket machines and bemused staff. It was very poorly promoted and badly managed....

Doesn't surprise me either. If ATOC didn't want to introduce it nationwide, making a trail a complete f*** up will just give the ammunition to say that it failed and there's no demand for such a railcard.

I'd much prefer a nationwide railcard, and have no issues with extending the Gold Card discounts beyond the former NSE area.

 

[cuccir]

I suspect the reason for issuing a two-person railcard is based on economics. For one person travelling, the train is usually cheaper than driving (I'm generalising: an Anytime walk-up fare is rarely better financial value); for three people, it's usually cheaper to share a car. Two people tends to be case where the two prices are fairly close, so something which increases the value for these groups might make sense.

I agree with those that a national railcard would be preferable though.

 

[Lampshade]

Doomed to fail from the start. ATOC doesn't want a national railcard, so it thought of such a flawed idea for one (who travels with the same person every time they use the train, really?), poorly promoted and poorly managed - they could have introduced a 'people who own a pet llama railcard' or a 'big ears railcard' and it would have had the same effect, they deliberately created a product with no demand so they can now dismiss any future suggestion of a full national railcard.

 

[jon0844]

I know ATOC read threads on this forum, so I wonder if they're sniggering when reading this. Sure, we know you know. You know we know you know...

 

[thedbdiboy]

I know ATOC read threads on this forum, so I wonder if they're sniggering when reading this. Sure, we know you know. You know we know you know...

Can I just remind you that ATOC aren't in a position to dictate what does or doesn't happen - it is the train operators through ATOC. (Clue in the title - Association of Train Operating Companies)

 

[jon0844]

Yes, but it needs ATOC to work with the industry to make something like a nationwide railcard work.. and if the TOCs aren't particularly bothered, but ATOC is merely keen on being seen to try new initiatives (they always tell that to the media when interviewed) then you end up with something being trialled that is deliberately set to fail.

Now when the media call in someone from ATOC to talk about the state of fares, they can say 'well we did try a few initiatives but passengers told us they weren't interested'.

And that's where ATOC sits. Can you see the TOCs all getting together to come up with a nationwide railcard system, or making the Gold Card discounts apply nationwide, without ATOC? Of course not - that's what ATOC is there for!

Certainly all the current railcard websites are under the ATOC umbrella, so I'd see them as the people who make the decisions after consulting the industry.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

Doomed to fail from the start. ATOC doesn't want a national railcard, so it thought of such a flawed idea for one (who travels with the same person every time they use the train, really?), poorly promoted and poorly managed - they could have introduced a 'people who own a pet llama railcard' or a 'big ears railcard' and it would have had the same effect, they deliberately created a product with no demand so they can now dismiss any future suggestion of a full national railcard.

Well I'd certainly buy a Big Ears Railcard, especially if you get further discounts for having a receding hairline and a beer gut.

 

[jon0844]

And buying a llama could pay for itself in only a few trips...

I really do hope ATOC is listening.

 

[Greenback]

How can ATOC really be proactive given the structure of the industry in which it has to operate? As thebdiboy says, it is merely an association, which, to me, means that it is more a means/mechanism for TOC's to discuss ideas, rather than coming up with them themselves.

Of course, ther emay be individuals within the organisation that see the bigger picture, and try and initiate proposals, but it would still need the agreement of the companies themselves before anything concrete could be established.

One of the by products of the fragmented railway is that what may be commercially advantageous to one TOC, may come at a big financial disadvantage to two others. In the case o fTwo together Railcards, it may be that a number of TOC's think it will be good for their business, while the others feel it may have a negative impact. It would have needed a very successful trial to convince the doubters if that was the case.

The sad fact is, though, that we may never find out the truth behind its introduction, or the results of the trial period!

 

[alastair]

How can ATOC really be proactive given the structure of the industry in which it has to operate? As thebdiboy says, it is merely an association, which, to me, means that it is more a means/mechanism for TOC's to discuss ideas, rather than coming up with them themselves.

Of course, ther emay be individuals within the organisation that see the bigger picture, and try and initiate proposals, but it would still need the agreement of the companies themselves before anything concrete could be established.

One of the by products of the fragmented railway is that what may be commercially advantageous to one TOC, may come at a big financial disadvantage to two others. In the case o fTwo together Railcards, it may be that a number of TOC's think it will be good for their business, while the others feel it may have a negative impact. It would have needed a very successful trial to convince the doubters if that was the case.

The sad fact is, though, that we may never find out the truth behind its introduction, or the results of the trial period!

Some interesting points made here,which begs the question :Why does the Network Card still exist? The TOC's and ATOC must have made a decision to work together on this one,although of course the £13 minimum fare Mon/Fri has quite significantly reduced its usefulness.

Its a sad commentary on the present set-up that an imaginative promotion is apparently only still with us because it dates back to NSE days and the TOC's don't have the nerve to withdraw it,or do some or all of them actually
regard it as a useful tool for increasing revenue?

 

[Greenback]

Some interesting points made here,which begs the question :Why does the Network Card still exist? The TOC's and ATOC must have made a decision to work together on this one,although of course the £13 minimum fare Mon/Fri has quite significantly reduced its usefulness.

I surmise that ATOC is the body that is used by the TOC's to negotiate and find a solution. I recall reading somehwere at the time that some participating TOC's wer ehappy with the T&C's as they were, some wanted the withdraw the card completely, and the restrictions were the compromise!

Its a sad commentary on the present set-up that an imaginative promotion is apparently only still with us because it dates back to NSE days and the TOC's don't have the nerve to withdraw it,or do some or all of them actually regard it as a useful tool for increasing revenue?

Again, it's only a supposition, but I would think that some TOC's might recognise that the railcard does have particular benefits in terms of their markets and traffic flows.

As I recall, the main objections tot he card continuing were due to some TOC's being concerned at the lost revenue from regular travellers who found that buying a one way Anytime single to London in the morning, with a reduced fare off peak single back in the afternoon or evening was still cheaper than an Anytime Day Return. The evening restrictions were a way to address those concerns, while still retaining the optional market with their day trips to Brighton or wherever, which could well have been lost if the card was totally withdrawn.

In the days of NSE, I imagine that wioth it being one orgnaisation they could see an overall benefit in terms of revenue. Now the TOC's are only concerned with their own bottom line, TOC A will not want to lose revenue just so that TOC B can increase theirs!

 

[IanXC]

I presume there is no reason why a TOC from outside the "former NSE area" could not unilaterally decide to start accepting Network Cards?

 

[transmanche]

I presume there is no reason why a TOC from outside the "former NSE area" could not unilaterally decide to start accepting Network Cards?

Even TOCs from within the 'former NSE area don't accept it on all routes. E.g. FCC don't accept it north of Huntingdon, as even in NSE days, services to Peterborough were deemed to be outside the NSE area.

 

[MikeWh]

I'd also like to see the Newhaven/Ryde loopholes closed somehow, but not sure how this would work in reality without becoming like a big brother state.

What is the problem with them? Are you in fact saying that in order to qualify for the Gold Card scheme a season ticket should cost a certain amount of money?

 

[jon0844]

Don't let the industry catch on to the idea of annual season tickets having a minimum charge!!

 

[34D]

What is the problem with them? Are you in fact saying that in order to qualify for the Gold Card scheme a season ticket should cost a certain amount of money?

I'm saying it should be local to where people live.

 

[snail]

It's a shame it's being discontinued but I appreciate the arguments about it not targeting those on lower or fixed incomes.

Has anyone said officially that it is? It was stated from the beginning that this was a trial for a fixed period, and that cards wouldn't be renewed.

 

[williamus]

Has anyone said officially that it is? It was stated from the beginning that this was a trial for a fixed period, and that cards wouldn't be renewed.

It's a good point... I actually wrote to [email protected] earlier today asking them if it had and whether the evaluation findings would be published.

The launch (which passed me by completely) and publicity all felt rather half-hearted. I only found the original leaflet in November when browsing the rack at my local station while waiting for a delayed cross city train.

The follow-up survey questionaires were IMHO a really clumsy effort littered with vague hypothetical questions. I couldn't open either of the two questionaires sent to me by email and although atoc promised a response they never did get back to me. Eventually I contacted the consultants who were conducting the survey and they sent me a useable link. I guess most people wouldn't have bothered.

In May when I decided to buy a duplicate Railcard (to give myself an extra six months), my local stations had run out of application forms and the actual photocards. A very kind man at my local station rang round for me and located one station three stops down the line who had one of the cards left and arranged for me to get it done there.

I do hope I'm wrong, but I'm tempted to agree with those that say this was always going to run into the sand.

 

[yorksrob]

British Rail has an Annual Season Ticket Holder's Railcard for a few years in the 1980s. Discounted tickets had the code AST-H.

Ah, thanks that.

On the subject of the National Network Card, there seems to be an impression amongst TOC's that as even expensive fares for single people are generally competitive against car transport, they don't need to bother. But of course, the railway isn't just competing against the motor car, bit it's also competing against the bus, the coach and (most importantly) "doing stuff closer to home". But then as Greenback notes, the fragmented system hardly encourages wholehearted nationwide innovation in terms of fares.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

especially if you get further discounts for having a receding hairline and a beer gut.

That's one I'd definately be eligible for !

 

[jon0844]

Rail is also competing against nothing.. as in people simply staying at home to save money.

That means not only offering a price to entice people but going the extra mile to include other incentives. It's why I think First could do well with the intermediate class on the WCML. Price is a factor, but once you decide to travel for leisure purposes - you may well want to enjoy some additional perks (yet wouldn't consider going first class).

My parents decided to go to Wales on a whim this weekend, bagging two first class returns on FGW for a total of £100 (they also have senior railcards). They have a car that has great economy and could easily have driven, but it's also about the overall experience. They'll feel like they're on holiday from the moment they board the train, unlike negotiating the M4!

 

[156402]

My preference would be for the Gold card to become national once more, thereby rewarding those who pay the most for their commute.

I'd also like to see the Newhaven/Ryde loopholes closed somehow, but not sure how this would work in reality without becoming like a big brother state.

This is typical 'commuter' rubbish. Season ticket holders do not pay the most, in fact its the complete opposite. Season ticket holders get the cheapest tickets possible for their commutes based on how much they are prepared to pay up front (ie weekly, monthly or yearly). Its a media and commuter myth that they pay the most and thats speaking as a commuter myself!

For comparisons sake, an example is shown below:

Gillingham to London Terminals rte High Speed

Daily SDR 36.90
Weekly 110.30

Even for just 3 days use, the weekly is cheaper albeit by 40p.

In addition, the holder also gets to use it for leisure purposes at the weekend and if an annual ticket holder then they also get the Gold Card benifits too (if living within the NSE area). Lastly, there may also be additional perks depending on who the TOC is