UK Rail Passenger Numbers Discussion

[Class 170101]

They actually don’t. For example, Hull Trains is on record as saying it would pay a path charge that related to the cost of maintaining and operating that part of the network, as long as it’s TAA was extended to compensate (because length of TAA awarded by the ORR is directly related to return). The ORR said that idea “had considerable merit”.

If Lumo paid a fixed charge on that basis, it would probably pay less to NR than it is going to via the ICC!

At the moment everyone is constrained by the EU derived charging rules. That will shortly change.

Sorry ICC?

 

[MCSHF007]

On a recent late evening train back from Leeds to Sheffield I overheard (not remotely difficult due to the decibel level of their conversation) two "over-refreshed" young "ladies" (complete with stinking takeaway "food") bemoaning the fact that they were in arrears with their rent, council tax and electric and had no means of paying same ...

Maybe it would help if (in your constrained financial circumstances) if you didn't regard it as acceptable to get p*ssed in Leeds all afternoon and evening (and act like knobs on the train home) then.

 

[ar10642]

On a recent late evening train back from Leeds to Sheffield I overheard (not remotely difficult due to the decibel level of their conversation) two "over-refreshed" young "ladies" (complete with stinking takeaway "food") bemoaning the fact that they were in arrears with their rent, council tax and electric and had no means of paying same ...

Maybe it would help if (in your constrained financial circumstances) if you didn't regard it as acceptable to get p*ssed in Leeds all afternoon and evening (and act like knobs on the train home) then.

Not excusing bad behaviour on the train, but if they're behind on entire rent, council tax and energy bill payments it's quite possible one of them has lost their job or something like that I'm not sure one evening out is going to move the needle much. Either way they are likely having to move house soon, miss two rent payments and they can kick you out.

 

[43066]

On a recent late evening train back from Leeds to Sheffield I overheard (not remotely difficult due to the decibel level of their conversation) two "over-refreshed" young "ladies" (complete with stinking takeaway "food") bemoaning the fact that they were in arrears with their rent, council tax and electric and had no means of paying same ...

Maybe it would help if (in your constrained financial circumstances) if you didn't regard it as acceptable to get p*ssed in Leeds all afternoon and evening (and act like knobs on the train home) then.

This seems unnecessarily judgmental, like your previous comment. Eating food and having a loud conversation on an evening train is irritating, but is hardly crime of the century, and you certainly seem to have taken a very keen interest in what they were saying.

Perhaps you should simply move seats or avoid public transport during the evening if people being a little merry bothers you to this level.

JL is a reasonable comparison to my non-London rail use. If they weren't there I would buy the stuff elsewhere or not at all. It isn't essential

It is essential for some people. Just because you drive everywhere and rarely visit London doesn’t mean everyone is the same.

Significant parts of the current railway have economic benefits worth subsidy. A fair amount around the edges gets subsidy for political reasons rather than economics.
But that doesn't mean any particular project for increasing rail services is worthy of subsidy

The railway as a whole is having subsidy frozen (ie reduced in real terms) for political reasons rather than economic, despite said subsidy already being low in international terms. Perhaps stop to consider that, unless you’re an older, wealthy property owner, or a very high earner, it is unlikely you will see any benefit from the current government’s approach to either politics or economics.

Intercity rail travel doesn't all need subsidy.

In which case subsidy will be reduced accordingly, and eventually premiums paid. It doesn’t follow that what subsidy there is should be withdrawn and spent on coaches, as you suggested previously.

It’s interesting (and revealing) that you refuse to accept figures showing the benefits of rail subsidy yet confidently assert, seemingly based on no evidence whatsoever, that rail subsidy would be better spent on bus and coach travel.

 

[squizzler]

This seems unnecessarily judgmental, like your previous comment. Eating food and having a loud conversation on an evening train is irritating, but is hardly crime of the century, and you certainly seem to have taken a very keen interest in what they were saying.

Perhaps you should simply move seats or avoid public transport during the evening if people being a little merry bothers you to this level.

Well said, and I might add that if I found myself in their situation getting blasted seems an eminently rational course of action.

All human life is to be found on train. Train usage is so diverse that people largely see what they want to see. We have here a resurrection of the Duke of Wellington's complaint that the trains "encourage the lower orders to move about". And on the other hand we should stop subsidising railways because they are only used by "wealthy south east commuters". The haters seem to flip-flop between these two opposing reasons to discourage rail over other forms of mobility.

We should celebrate this diversity of travel happening on the same network at different times, truly the hallmark of a universal service.

 

[A0wen]

This seems unnecessarily judgmental, like your previous comment. Eating food and having a loud conversation on an evening train is irritating, but is hardly crime of the century, and you certainly seem to have taken a very keen interest in what they were saying.

I disagree - people being loud means that you often can hear their conversation, even if you try blocking it out.

And if somebody on the one hand is bemoaning they have no money for their rent and other bills, but have some how managed to afford to go out in a major city and get drunk, frankly it's perfectly reasonable to question their priorities.

Not excusing bad behaviour on the train, but if they're behind on entire rent, council tax and energy bill payments it's quite possible one of them has lost their job or something like that I'm not sure one evening out is going to move the needle much. Either way they are likely having to move house soon, miss two rent payments and they can kick you out.

On the basis "one evening out" isn't likely to give much change from £ 50 nowadays, I disagree.

And you don't know how often they are doing this - they may be doing it every week, yet falling behind with their bills.

 

[Richardr]

Not overly relevant to the subject of the thread - but there are many reasons why someone may have been drinking, on a later train and not spent money. They may have gone to work on the train and there was a work do in the evening, meaning they would return late and not totally sober, for example.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Sorry ICC?

Infrastructure Cost Charge - it’s what new OA operators serving major flows have to pay. It’s a graduated charge during their first few years of operation.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Noticing TPE trains are regularly deserted now, I guess the blockade won't have helped but is there now people deserting them due to unreliability? 8am Leeds to Manchester dead, unheard of prepandemic.

 

[43066]

I disagree - people being loud means that you often can hear their conversation, even if you try blocking it out.

As I said, it’s irritating, but it’s hardly the end of the world. You can always move, or wear noise cancelling earphones. I get the distinct impression that the poster I responded to just dislikes seeing people enjoying themselves.

And if somebody on the one hand is bemoaning they have no money for their rent and other bills, but have some how managed to afford to go out in a major city and get drunk, frankly it's perfectly reasonable to question their priorities.

And that is nobody’s business but theirs. Maybe a lot of people in this country are having a difficult time at the moment and feel the need to drown their sorrows.

Anyone who goes around eavesdropping on conversations and “questioning the priorities” of total strangers is likely to wind up getting a smack in the mouth sooner or later!

On the basis "one evening out" isn't likely to give much change from £ 50 nowadays, I disagree.

And you don't know how often they are doing this - they may be doing it every week, yet falling behind with their bills.

I must ask: what on earth makes that any business of yours, and who are you to sit in judgement?

 

[sk688]

weekend and weekday off peak travel on GWR London-Bristol services seems very high, full and standing most times I've used it recently, but the peak hour Taunton services are half full at best

Compare to the 9 car 1030 service from London yday , that was leaving people behind at Swindon and Chippenham

 

[A0wen]

Anyone who goes around eavesdropping on conversations and “questioning the priorities” of total strangers is likely to wind up getting a smack in the mouth sooner or later!

If you don't want your conversation to be "eavesdropped" then don't shout your mouth off ?

I must ask: what on earth makes that any business of yours, and who are you to sit in judgement?

Depends - if, as seems to be inevitable, that I as a taxpayer (and I'm one of those who is a net contributor) end up picking up the bill to cover the shortfall or the costs when people fall on hard times, it's reasonable that I have a say.

If somebody is financially self sufficient then I have no problem with them spending their money however they see fit. But the minute they start costing the system money, then it's my business.

 

[43066]

If you don't want your conversation to be "eavesdropped" then don't shout your mouth off ?

I very much doubt they cared, or ever dreamt that someone would be so incensed that they’d take to an internet forum and start anonymously attacking them!

Depends - if, as seems to be inevitable, that I as a taxpayer (and I'm one of those who is a net contributor) end up picking up the bill to cover the shortfall or the costs when people fall on hard times, it's reasonable that I have a say.

If somebody is financially self sufficient then I have no problem with them spending their money however they see fit. But the minute they start costing the system money, then it's my business.

Then by all means vote accordingly. That doesn’t mean these peoples’ individual circumstances are anyone else’s business, or that you can get the full picture based on overhearing a conversation on a train!

It also probably isn’t entirely healthy to judge the worth of others solely according to whether or not they’re “net contributors”, but that’s off topic…

 

[ar10642]

On the basis "one evening out" isn't likely to give much change from £ 50 nowadays, I disagree.

And you don't know how often they are doing this - they may be doing it every week, yet falling behind with their bills.

Quite possibly, but for context my rent is £1,500, council tax £196 and energy bill £320. That's a lot of booze, I'd probably need to go into rehab.

 

[Meerkat]

It is essential for some people. Just because you drive everywhere and rarely visit London doesn’t mean everyone is the same.

You are moving the argument. It was suggested that the railway is politically significant because of how many people used the trains. But if its barely half and that includes lots of people like me who could easily not use them then the leverage isnt really very high.

It’s interesting (and revealing) that you refuse to accept figures showing the benefits of rail subsidy yet confidently assert, seemingly based on no evidence whatsoever, that rail subsidy would be better spent on bus and coach travel.

I don't accept the basis for the figures (the multiplier logic isn't all that logical) rather than the rail figures specifically.
More people use, and can use, buses, and coaches are cheaper and more flexible. And IIRC bus subsidy is more progressive, and better if you want to help people access work.
If you are worried about poorer people travelling then direct subsidy is probably more efficient - travelcards.

Quite possibly, but for context my rent is £1,500, council tax £196 and energy bill £320. That's a lot of booze, I'd probably need to go into rehab.

Their booze bill could be the difference between paying the interest on the debt and it just snowballing though.

 

[Trainbike46]

Making harsh judgements on people you don't know based on a partially overheard conversations is ..... not great, to say the least.

As a general point, I think 43066 worded it perfectly:

That doesn’t mean these peoples’ individual circumstances are anyone else’s business, or that you can get the full picture based on overhearing a conversation on a train!

 

[yorksrob]

You are moving the argument. It was suggested that the railway is politically significant because of how many people used the trains. But if its barely half and that includes lots of people like me who could easily not use them then the leverage isnt really very high.

I don't accept the basis for the figures (the multiplier logic isn't all that logical) rather than the rail figures specifically.
More people use, and can use, buses, and coaches are cheaper and more flexible. And IIRC bus subsidy is more progressive, and better if you want to help people access work.
If you are worried about poorer people travelling then direct subsidy is probably more efficient - travelcards.


Their booze bill could be the difference between paying the interest on the debt and it just snowballing though.

"Half" the population is a significant proportion of the population in my book.

 

[railfan99]

At branch line terminus Looe that I've travelled to and from years ago on a previous UK trip, it's pleasing that 118,000 combined entries and exits in pre-COVID 2018-19 was matched in 2021-22. Very good, considering some lockdown days in the latter financial year to 31 March 2022.

Sandplace on the same branch has tiny patronage, but comparing those two FYs, it increased from 1274 to 1316. Causeland's rose from 1620 to 2040. Oddly named St Keyne Wishing Well Halt was up from 1334 to 1500, Coombe Junction Halt, not served by every train IIRC, spoiled the party, dropping from 204 to an even tinier 112.

Do we put down this relatively good performance (despite COVID vestiges) to walkers and other leisure travellers returning to rail?

 

[yorksrob]

At branch line terminus Looe that I've travelled to and from years ago on a previous UK trip, it's pleasing that 118,000 combined entries and exits in pre-COVID 2018-19 was matched in 2021-22. Very good, considering some lockdown days in the latter financial year to 31 March 2022.

Sandplace on the same branch has tiny patronage, but comparing those two FYs, it increased from 1274 to 1316. Causeland's rose from 1620 to 2040. Oddly named St Keyne Wishing Well Halt was up from 1334 to 1500, Coombe Junction Halt, not served by every train IIRC, spoiled the party, dropping from 204 to an even tinier 112.

Do we put down this relatively good performance (despite COVID vestiges) to walkers and other leisure travellers returning to rail?

Some will be due to leisure travellers, but Looe is also well used by local passengers, particularly school children.

 

[Watershed]

At branch line terminus Looe that I've travelled to and from years ago on a previous UK trip, it's pleasing that 118,000 combined entries and exits in pre-COVID 2018-19 was matched in 2021-22. Very good, considering some lockdown days in the latter financial year to 31 March 2022.

Sandplace on the same branch has tiny patronage, but comparing those two FYs, it increased from 1274 to 1316. Causeland's rose from 1620 to 2040. Oddly named St Keyne Wishing Well Halt was up from 1334 to 1500, Coombe Junction Halt, not served by every train IIRC, spoiled the party, dropping from 204 to an even tinier 112.

Do we put down this relatively good performance (despite COVID vestiges) to walkers and other leisure travellers returning to rail?

The Looe branch is truly in a world of its own. Coombe Junction Halt only has 4 trains a day (two in each direction in the morning and evening respectively), because not all trains pass through the station. That's because it takes a few extra minutes to go as far as the station, which breaks the otherwise clockface hourly service pattern. Trains normally reverse at Coombe No. 1 Ground Frame instead, which is a few hundred yards short of the platform.

 

[Llandudno]

Noticing TPE trains are regularly deserted now, I guess the blockade won't have helped but is there now people deserting them due to unreliability? 8am Leeds to Manchester dead, unheard of prepandemic.

But who in their right mind would buy a ticket for TPE if you actually needed to be somewhere at a specific time?

It’s like playing Russian roulette as to whether the TPE train actually operates or makes it to the end of the route…!

 

[Killingworth]

But who in their right mind would buy a ticket for TPE if you actually needed to be somewhere at a specific time?

It’s like playing Russian roulette as to whether the TPE train actually operates or makes it to the end of the route…!

It's asking for trouble to say anything positive about TPE, but here goes. On South Pennine we are seeing much better reliability. Only ECS cancellations so far today and risk of some late starts and early terminations. Still some way from perfection but a lot better. Having noted this we might even consider using them one day next week.

But the point made is good. TPE are being avoided. Work from home. Take a different route. Use a different operator. Take the car. Stay in a hotel for a few nights,rather than commute every day. Change job. Move home. I've heard all these. Do not rely on TPE.

It will take some time for the public to recover enough confidence to fully return, and some never will. It will take more time to capture new users who haven't been soured by their performance over the last few years.

 

[Bikeman78]

I suppose on those questions, how much lower can some regional services get? Lower than 1tph on moderate regional routes it’s not much use at all - and probably just inconvenient entirely - and also at this point has a social benefit to connect communities.

There used to be a few routes in Belgium that ran once every two hours, e.g. Liege to Jemelle and Hasselt to Mol. They are all hourly now. It will be interesting to see if any revert to two hourly.

 

[Llandudno]

It's asking for trouble to say anything positive about TPE, but here goes. On South Pennine we are seeing much better reliability. Only ECS cancellations so far today and risk of some late starts and early terminations. Still some way from perfection but a lot better. Having noted this we might even consider using them one day next week.

But the point made is good. TPE are being avoided. Work from home. Take a different route. Use a different operator. Take the car. Stay in a hotel for a few nights,rather than commute every day. Change job. Move home. I've heard all these. Do not rely on TPE.

It will take some time for the public to recover enough confidence to fully return, and some never will. It will take more time to capture new users who haven't been soured by their performance over the last few years.

Perhaps when (if) TPE get there act in order then maybe they should offer a ticket offer similar to Northern’s from £1 per single journey on selected routes/times to entice customers back!

 

[Bikeman78]

On a recent late evening train back from Leeds to Sheffield I overheard (not remotely difficult due to the decibel level of their conversation) two "over-refreshed" young "ladies" (complete with stinking takeaway "food") bemoaning the fact that they were in arrears with their rent, council tax and electric and had no means of paying same ...

Maybe it would help if (in your constrained financial circumstances) if you didn't regard it as acceptable to get p*ssed in Leeds all afternoon and evening (and act like knobs on the train home) then.

I guess the flip side is that if you can't go out and have a laugh with your mate occasionally then what's the point in anything?

 

[Cowley]

I guess the flip side is that if you can't go out and have a laugh with your mate occasionally then what's the point in anything?

It feels like we’re straying off topic if we carry on with this discussion. I don’t want to delete or move a load of stuff but think we’d best leave it there for now (not singling you out by the way @Bikeman78 ).

Thanks

 

[Krokodil]

Perhaps when (if) TPE get there act in order then maybe they should offer a ticket offer similar to Northern’s from £1 per single journey on selected routes/times to entice customers back!

"If" is very much the appropriate word here. Sorting out the mess will cost money, and will require the restoration of industrial harmony (not just an RDW agreement, you need people to be actually willing to work those rest days). Until relations are restored (the government is apparently in no hurry to get the country moving again) TPE will continue losing staff to FOCs/non-Westminster TOCs/retirement.

 

[yorksrob]

Noticing TPE trains are regularly deserted now, I guess the blockade won't have helped but is there now people deserting them due to unreliability? 8am Leeds to Manchester dead, unheard of prepandemic.

The 10:38 Leeds to Chester was full and standing at Low Moor today. Combination of main line engineering works and TPE being AWOL (yes, they even managed to cancel the rare diverted service).

 

[dk1]

The 10:38 Leeds to Chester was full and standing at Low Moor today. Combination of main line engineering works and TPE being AWOL (yes, they even managed to cancel the rare diverted service).

Might be a good few race goers onboard as well.

 

[yorksrob]

Might be a good few race goers onboard as well.

Judging by the numbers getting off at Rochdale, there might have been a Bradford City game by the looks of it.