Unsuitable Rolling Stock

[Rhydgaled]

You have to have a 158 available. The 150 is combined with Cardiff Valley working over routes where 158s not cleared. On occasions is worked by a Pacer which is not very suitable for the return if there has been a rough crossing over the Irish Sea.

Sure, but I thought this thread was just pointing out where unsuitable stock is, even if that's the only stock availble for the service. Regardless, I'd be interested to know what happened to make a 158 unavailable, given that at some point between using 37s and the current use of 150s ATW did indeed use a 158 on the Fishguard Flyer?

If the Fishguard service in question is still diagrammed for a 150 or Pacer when the 67s finally arrive to release the 175 from WAG 2 (which I would hope could then release a 158 for the Fishguard) I'll be rather disapointed.

 

[tbtc]

Class 150 = inner suburban / short country branch line unit
Class 158 = regional express unit

10:57 Cardiff Central - Fishguard Harbour (calling at Llanelli and Whitland only) = regional express service
13:30 Fishguard Harbour - Cardiff Central (ignoring the fact it extends to Cheltenham Spa) (calling at Whitland, Carmarthen and Llanelli only) = regional express service

So what do ATW use? A 150 of course Seriously, they shouldn't be using a 150 on that service, woefully inappropriate (a pair of 153s in multiple would be better, but a 158 is really what it should be).

When 150s were introduced they ran on more long distance services (compared to now) - for (a Welsh) example they did the Cardiff - Nottingham/ Lincoln services.

NSE rejected pacers and sprinters because they intended a common family of DMU and EMUs with significant commonality (The Networker). The first appearing in 1991 was the Cl165 with the first EMU being the 465. These would have been the template for all NSE orders with differing doors, lengths and cabs but the same fundamental components.

The idea eventually became the Turbostar and Electrostar.

The size of the Pacer (and it being diesel) would preclude it from almost every route in the South East.

I don't know why people always suggest them going to London in these threads - what routes are there for 30m DMUs to run on?

Whereas Scotland has 90mph 158s (unsuited for stop/start operation) on routes like Glasgow Central - Whifflet (now that is a route that a Pacer could do)

In Lincoln it's not uncommon to get doubled up pacers during the day, and
Then to see a 153 work a peak service

I would love to know where the doubled up Pacers come from, as they originate from Scunthorpe during the day, and it's only a single unit that leaves there.

Also, the bay where they are stabled between turns at Scunthorpe (to allow the TPE services to pass) can only fit a 3 car pacer or 2 car 15x.

IIRC there are eight or nine duties on the Scunthorpe - Lincoln - Adwick tour. Since December 2011 two of them are generally doubled up 142s (certainly based on observations from Sheffield).

Anything FGW use from Weymouth-Gloucester. I think it's a 150 that's used, but it lacks tables and all the other amenities needed for a three hour stopping journey, and that's just up to Bristol Parkway.

What would be appropriate though? This is an all stops service to Bristol tagged on to an all stops service beyond Bristol. It may take several hours, but its not a route where people actually do the "end to end" journey (in any number).

 

[PHILIPE]

Sure, but I thought this thread was just pointing out where unsuitable stock is, even if that's the only stock availble for the service. Regardless, I'd be interested to know what happened to make a 158 unavailable, given that at some point between using 37s and the current use of 150s ATW did indeed use a 158 on the Fishguard Flyer?

If the Fishguard service in question is still diagrammed for a 150 or Pacer when the 67s finally arrive to release the 175 from WAG 2 (which I would hope could then release a 158 for the Fishguard) I'll be rather disapointed.

They would not provide a 158 just to work this on it's own. When the 175 is released from WAG2 it will replace a 158 on Holyhead to Cardiff and the 158 replacing 150 on Cheltenham to Maesteg. A 150 has worked the Fishguard since a complete upheaval of services by ATW in December 2005.
Personally, I prefer 150s as I think 158s have no character about the interior and quite dismal.

 

[tempests1]

Must be the Pacer! Would love to see the look on the faces of commuters in the south east if one of these bone shakers turned up!

Not again! how old and tired were the slam door third rail EMU's when finally retired in 2005 or 2010 in the case of the Lymington Pair! In the case of the CEP's they were first introduced in 1959 for the Kent Coast Electrification scheme. Why would they run DMU's on routes that have complete third rail for their entire length. Further to this services in London & S.East are the busiest in the UK in terms of passenger numbers and the intensity so the turtle acceleration of the Pacer would not do considering the tight headways between trains on lots of the commuter lines and as has been said in some of my previous posts on this very same subject how practical would it be using 6 x 2 car pacer's on a morning peak up working!!

 

[Nym]

The size of the Pacer (and it being diesel) would preclude it from almost every route in the South East.

I don't know why people always suggest them going to London in these threads - what routes are there for 30m DMUs to run on?

Bedford - Bletchley, perfect unit for that...

 

[SprinterMan]

Bedford - Bletchley, perfect unit for that...

They could also do Sudbury-Marks Tey, but I really hope they don't

 

[Nym]

I could proberbly come up with a few more if we're permitting multiple working here...

Greenford - West Ealing (When it becomes a shuttle)
Slough - Windsor & Eaton Central

Come to think of it, any of the GW Branches, since they'll soon be run in isolation, less safety issues.

Alesbury - Princess Raisbrough
Alesbury - Watford Junction (Post Croxley Rail Link) although 508s or 313s might be better for that, since it is DC Electrified.

 

[WestCoast]

Not again! how old and tired were the slam door third rail EMU's when finally retired in 2005 or 2010 in the case of the Lymington Pair! In the case of the CEP's they were first introduced in 1959 for the Kent Coast Electrification scheme. Why would they run DMU's on routes that have complete third rail for their entire length. Further to this services in London & S.East are the busiest in the UK in terms of passenger numbers and the intensity so the turtle acceleration of the Pacer would not do considering the tight headways between trains on lots of the commuter lines and as has been said in some of my previous posts on this very same subject how practical would it be using 6 x 2 car pacer's on a morning peak up working!!

It's not so much the age nor the "tiredness" of Pacers, it's their suitably for some of the longer distance and surprisingly busy services they operate. I imagine many people people around here would prefer a Merseyrail 507/508 over an NT 142 for a busy commute, despite the former being at least 13 or so years older.

Pacers were apparently rejected for use on the GOBLIN line (with Sprinters being accepted instead) and I imagine would be rejected by SWT for use on the Lymington Shuttle (instead of a valuable 158) for reasons of fleet commonality.

 

[tbtc]

Bedford - Bletchley, perfect unit for that...

I'd call that "South Midlands" rather than anywhere near London. Maybe that's just me...

 

[Nym]

I'd call that "South Midlands" rather than anywhere near London. Maybe that's just me...

Thames Valley Branches?

 

[tbtc]

Alesbury - Princess Raisbrough

Sensible suggestion.

But the fact that this route in the Chilterns currently sees slam door single coach 1960s DMUs does spoil the "north is always hard done by" argument that we often get on here
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Thames Valley Branches?

Currently all have duties working into London, who know whether they will be electrified as a follow on from the Thames Valley work? Plus the passenger numbers on a 3+2 165/166 wouldn't suit a Pacer.

 

[Nym]

Sensible suggestion.

But the fact that this route in the Chilterns currently sees slam door single coach 1960s DMUs does spoil the "north is always hard done by" argument that we often get on here
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Currently all have duties working into London, who know whether they will be electrified as a follow on from the Thames Valley work? Plus the passenger numbers on a 3+2 165/166 wouldn't suit a Pacer.

We all know most on here prefer a bubble car to a pacer...

And I wouldn't have ONE pacer working it, I did quality multiple working further up somewhere, if we're replacing a 3 car 165/6 then one would be putting out a 4 car pacer and increasing the frequency...

 

[Rhydgaled]

They would not provide a 158 just to work this on it's own.

Well quite, it would have to interwork with something. Not sure what would be best, carrying on to Cheltenham on arrival in Cardiff (as the 150 does now) is one possibility for the evening. Personally though I'd have it run another pair of express trips to Fishguard or Carmarthen. The more important of these two would be a 17:54 from Cardiff, which would reach Carmarthen 10 minutes before the 17:39 (off Cardiff) to Milford Haven does and hence allow passengers for Carmarthen and Pembrokeshire to avoid the overcrowded 17:39 service. This 17:54 from Cardiff could terminate at Carmarthen, but ideally it would carry on to Fishguard behind the Milford train and replace the 20:05 connection from Clarbeston Road to Fishguard. It'd be a bit late to return to Cardiff for the night then, so I also suggest a 07:56 Fishguard - Cardiff, replacing Fishguard's 08:04 and leaving Carmarthen at 08:50 for arrival in Cardiff at 10:26, in time to work the 10:57 service back out to Fishguard.

Of course that 158 would stay the night at Carmarthen, so in reality one of the two trips into Cardiff from Fishguard would have to extend to Holyhead or Cheltenham with a 158 coming from Holyhead or Cheltenham forming the next westbound service.

When the 175 is released from WAG2 it will replace a 158 on Holyhead to Cardiff and the 158 replacing 150 on Cheltenham to Maesteg.

Isn't there a 150 diagram on Holyhead - Cardiff or one of ATW's Manchester services? If so, I'd have the 175 released from WAG 2 replace that long-distance 150 instead, and that 150 would go onto Maesteg - Cheltenham to release the 158 needed for the Fishguard express diagram.

Personally, I prefer 150s as I think 158s have no character about the interior and quite dismal.

158s have a smarter-looking external shape in my opinion, and their door layout is more apropriate for long-distance services and they can do 90mph (which should mean you can add Bridgend and Port Talbot stops to the Fishguard express(es) without increasing the journey time). I found the two-tone blue strips on the luggage rack and blue carpet on the wall with old interior added some character, which sadly has not been retained in the refurb. However the state of said wall carpets now means it probably was about time they refurbished the units, and the interiors were a bit gloomy&grim in some ways before. Still much nicer than a 150 normally though.

Not again! how old and tired were the slam door third rail EMU's when finally retired in 2005 or 2010 in the case of the Lymington Pair! In the case of the CEP's they were first introduced in 1959 for the Kent Coast Electrification scheme. Why would they run DMU's on routes that have complete third rail for their entire length.

158s on Lymington? From what I remember from my trip on one of the Lymington 3-CIGs shortly before their withdrawal I'd much rather travel on one of those than an ATW Pacer.

 

[ert47]

I don't know why people always suggest them going to London in these threads - what routes are there for 30m DMUs to run on?

Not exactly London, but how about Guilford - Redhill? (just for lols)

 

[Schnellzug]

Anything FGW use from Weymouth-Gloucester. I think it's a 150 that's used, but it lacks tables and all the other amenities needed for a three hour stopping journey, and that's just up to Bristol Parkway.

What would be appropriate though? This is an all stops service to Bristol tagged on to an all stops service beyond Bristol. It may take several hours, but its not a route where people actually do the "end to end" journey (in any number).

I never knew why they switched it to Gloucester; it used to go to Cardiff, which was probably a bit more useful. Anyway, I think weymouth-bath/bristol (in summer particularly) is in itself a quite significant traffic flow, and desrves being treated as more than a rustic branch line.
Of course, it's a question of having to use what they've got, and I think there's only two two-car 158s still in stock, and the three-car ones are presumably fully employed on Cardiff-portsmouth, although they quite often do turn up on the busier workings on Summer weekneds.
Anyway, I quite like the ex LM 150/1s; they're quite clean & tidy, and 2+3 seated 150/2s were always used in Wales & West & Regional RaiWays days.

 

[tbtc]

I never knew why they switched it to Gloucester; it used to go to Cardiff, which was probably a bit more useful

Operational convenience - nothing to do with passenger demand, it's just more convenience for the TOC to tag a couple of services together into one working (see also Selby - Halifax - Wakefield or Scunthorpe - Lincoln - Adwick)

Anyway, I think weymouth-bath/bristol (in summer particularly) is in itself a quite significant traffic flow, and desrves being treated as more than a rustic branch line

More capacity sounds needed in the summer months (additional 150s?), but we aren't talking about a line with long stretches of 100mph running, nor are there any *big* places between Weymouth and Bath, meaning it is effectively a long branch line (rightly or wrongly).

 

[yorksrob]

lets face it if the Pacers came south they would soon be refurbished and being maintained properly reliability would soar. Whatever went north in their place would quickly become filthy dirty and allowed to fall to bits.
Compare stock of the same age and design in the north and south. Which would you rather travel on a Northern 158 or a SWT 159? A southern 313 or a pacer half it age??

Personally, I'd prefer a VEP.

 

[pemma]

Not again! how old and tired were the slam door third rail EMU's when finally retired in 2005 or 2010 in the case of the Lymington Pair!

I find it strange that whenever anyone mentions the fact that the 319s will be almost 30 years old by the time they are cascaded to the North West that people are quick to point out that EMUs usually last 10 years longer than equivalent DMUs. However, people from the South still complain about their now replaced slam door EMUs as if they were the oldest units ever in service. They seem to forget that 1950s slam door DMUs in the class 101s were in operation in the North West until 2003 at an age of over 47 years old, on the basis that EMUs last 10 years longer the 421s would still be good for Lymington until the end of this decade. The 421s were actually withdrawn before they were as old as the 101s!

Ignoring the fact that Pacers are a DMU, they were never built to the same standard as the slam door EMUs so comparing their age with the age of the slam door EMUs when they were withdrawn is a pointless comparison. Also, if Pacers were only used on services not any longer than the Lymington services a lot of people would be happier.

 

[LE Greys]

More capacity sounds needed in the summer months (additional 150s?), but we aren't talking about a line with long stretches of 100mph running, nor are there any *big* places between Weymouth and Bath, meaning it is effectively a long branch line (rightly or wrongly).

There's also the decline in capacity because of the reduction in Channel Islands ferry traffic and the fact that trains can't get anywhere near the ferry terminal any more. Weymouth rated a slip coach from the Limited at one point for precisely this reason, but that's declined quite a lot (flights from Bristol, Luton and Southampton). Still, I reckon it's possibly a 158 turn, mostly because of the short main line sections, where a bit of speed would be useful to get out of the way. Plus the fact that 158s have doors at the end, which is usually better on rural lines. Still, this would depend on a cascade that might or might not happen, 159s displaced by 186s (or whatever) on Waterloo-Exeter going to FGW.

I find it strange that whenever anyone mentions the fact that the 319s will be almost 30 years old by the time they are cascaded to the North West that people are quick to point out that EMUs usually last 10 years longer than equivalent DMUs. However, people from the South still complain about their now replaced slam door EMUs as if they were the oldest units ever in service. They seem to forget that 1950s slam door DMUs in the class 101s were in operation in the North West until 2003 at an age of over 47 years old, on the basis that EMUs last 10 years longer the 421s would still be good for Lymington until the end of this decade. The 421s were actually withdrawn before they were as old as the 101s!

Ignoring the fact that Pacers are a DMU, they were never built to the same standard as the slam door EMUs so comparing their age with the age of the slam door EMUs when they were withdrawn is a pointless comparison. Also, if Pacers were only used on services not any longer than the Lymington services a lot of people would be happier.

Not much was built to the same standard as the slammers. MkIs, for all their faults, are good, solid vehicles designed to work crack expresses as well as ordinary suburban trains. They were heavily over-engineered for the job, but excellent at it. No wonder they were still going strong after all those years of intensive service. That's how to build a durable train.

 

[jopsuk]

durable up until the point that they were involved in any sort of accident...

 

[PHILIPE]

Well quite, it would have to interwork with something. Not sure what would be best, carrying on to Cheltenham on arrival in Cardiff (as the 150 does now) is one possibility for the evening. Personally though I'd have it run another pair of express trips to Fishguard or Carmarthen. The more important of these two would be a 17:54 from Cardiff, which would reach Carmarthen 10 minutes before the 17:39 (off Cardiff) to Milford Haven does and hence allow passengers for Carmarthen and Pembrokeshire to avoid the overcrowded 17:39 service. This 17:54 from Cardiff could terminate at Carmarthen, but ideally it would carry on to Fishguard behind the Milford train and replace the 20:05 connection from Clarbeston Road to Fishguard. It'd be a bit late to return to Cardiff for the night then, so I also suggest a 07:56 Fishguard - Cardiff, replacing Fishguard's 08:04 and leaving Carmarthen at 08:50 for arrival in Cardiff at 10:26, in time to work the 10:57 service back out to Fishguard.

Of course that 158 would stay the night at Carmarthen, so in reality one of the two trips into Cardiff from Fishguard would have to extend to Holyhead or Cheltenham with a 158 coming from Holyhead or Cheltenham forming the next westbound service.

Isn't there a 150 diagram on Holyhead - Cardiff or one of ATW's Manchester services? If so, I'd have the 175 released from WAG 2 replace that long-distance 150 instead, and that 150 would go onto Maesteg - Cheltenham to release the 158 needed for the Fishguard express diagram.

158s have a smarter-looking external shape in my opinion, and their door layout is more apropriate for long-distance services and they can do 90mph (which should mean you can add Bridgend and Port Talbot stops to the Fishguard express(es) without increasing the journey time). I found the two-tone blue strips on the luggage rack and blue carpet on the wall with old interior added some character, which sadly has not been retained in the refurb. However the state of said wall carpets now means it probably was about time they refurbished the units, and the interiors were a bit gloomy&grim in some ways before. Still much nicer than a 150 normally though.

158s on Lymington? From what I remember from my trip on one of the Lymington 3-CIGs shortly before their withdrawal I'd much rather travel on one of those than an ATW Pacer.

There are no 150s diagrammed on Holyhead to Cardiff services. Since my post yesterday, I have recalled the history as to how the 158 disappeared. In December 2005, the ATW Timetable was completely revamped which resulted in reduction of trains startng/terminating at Cardiff, one reason being to reduce moves to/from Canton or crossovers for Performance purposes. This is when all the West Wales services went through to Manchester and vice versa.
The outcome was that all diagrams were worked continuously throughout the day leaving the Fishguard as a service left over with nowhere to slot. The only solution was to diagram to an "Additional" Unit so a Spare 150 Diagram was created. Subsequently, and following experience of overcrowding, it was built up into a full day by strengthening on the Cardiff Valleys. The 158 had perviously worked various Marches services when starting/terminating at Cardiff Cen. Also the 150 later went rhrough to Cheltenham. this was to realease a 158 from Cheltenham to Maestegs to allow it to fuel and work up North at 2010 in addition to platforming problems with the introduction of WAG1. At this time, the 158s released from the Marches with 175s on the route on their return from TPE, the 158s were allocated to Maesteg to Cheltenhams. Previously, the Maestegs were through from the Valleys and the Cheltenhams a mix of all sorts starting or terminating Cardiff whern there was a larger choice of options without so many through trains.

 

[HSTEd]

durable up until the point that they were involved in any sort of accident...

The Clapham Junction Crash report seemed to come to the conclusion that the Mark 1 stock design was basically structurally sound.

 

[LE Greys]

durable up until the point that they were involved in any sort of accident...

They stood up a lot better at Harrow than the Stanier coaches also involved. Technology overtook them, though, monocoque designs will always be more solid than underframe ones. Step-ups in safety technology.

 

[tbtc]

I find it strange that whenever anyone mentions the fact that the 319s will be almost 30 years old by the time they are cascaded to the North West that people are quick to point out that EMUs usually last 10 years longer than equivalent DMUs. However, people from the South still complain about their now replaced slam door EMUs as if they were the oldest units ever in service. They seem to forget that 1950s slam door DMUs in the class 101s were in operation in the North West until 2003 at an age of over 47 years old, on the basis that EMUs last 10 years longer the 421s would still be good for Lymington until the end of this decade. The 421s were actually withdrawn before they were as old as the 101s!

Wikepedia claims there were only five at First North Western. Silverlink and ScotRail continued with slam door DMUs until around the Millenium too (not just the north west of England getting a rough deal). Slam door DMU operation continues today with ATW and Chiltern, of course.

Whereas the slam door EMUs in the South East were in much larger number, hence the need to tackle the problem.

 

[yorksrob]

Wikepedia claims there were only five at First North Western. Silverlink and ScotRail continued with slam door DMUs until around the Millenium too (not just the north west of England getting a rough deal). Slam door DMU operation continues today with ATW and Chiltern, of course.

Whereas the slam door EMUs in the South East were in much larger number, hence the need to tackle the problem.

Don't forget our lovely 308's in Yorkshire !

Not that I would ever regard slam door units as a problem to be tackled.

 

[ert47]

Not that I would ever regard slam door units as a problem to be tackled.

Unless you get "tackled" by one when someone opens the door too early when the train is pulling into a station.

 

[yorksrob]

Unless you get "tackled" by one when someone opens the door too early when the train is pulling into a station.

I prefer to live by the time honoured tradition of standing back from the platform edge when the train comes in - which is probably why I've avoided being tackled in around twenty five years of using them

 

[tempests1]

I find it strange that whenever anyone mentions the fact that the 319s will be almost 30 years old by the time they are cascaded to the North West that people are quick to point out that EMUs usually last 10 years longer than equivalent DMUs. However, people from the South still complain about their now replaced slam door EMUs as if they were the oldest units ever in service. They seem to forget that 1950s slam door DMUs in the class 101s were in operation in the North West until 2003 at an age of over 47 years old, on the basis that EMUs last 10 years longer the 421s would still be good for Lymington until the end of this decade. The 421s were actually withdrawn before they were as old as the 101s!

Ignoring the fact that Pacers are a DMU, they were never built to the same standard as the slam door EMUs so comparing their age with the age of the slam door EMUs when they were withdrawn is a pointless comparison. Also, if Pacers were only used on services not any longer than the Lymington services a lot of people would be happier.

It is interesting how you use the class 421 4 CIG as the main basis of your point, but totally disregard the 4 CEP of which the construction of started in 1956, the exact same year they started bulding the Metro Cammell class 101 so being pedantic they early CEP's would have been the same age at withdrawl or older. Upon withdrawl there were a lot more CEP's taken out of service than the small pocket of 101's. You could indeed say it was a pointless comparison however there is a miss conception every time one of these threads come up that the south east always gets everything but the North gets the cast off's and rubbish The CEP's did have a poor ride quaility and the interior left a lot to be desired particularly towards the end the headrests seemed to fall off regularly the motor coach's would vibrate heavily with the heavy thump of the compressors when stood idle for too long at a station, & very stiff and hard to operate compartment doors both the handles and the tendency to come out their runners, and vinyl flooring covered in scratches, cuts, marks, & ridges. I don't disgaree that people wouldn't mind a pacer on a very short branch line but the post I quoted and replied to do not state that just generically said South East and did not specify branch lines or main lines. To further split hairs the Class 455's with SWT/Southern have Westinghouse brake gear from 4 SUB's units circa 1930's, & the wessex units with southern have traction motors from the 4 REP units which first hit the rails in 1966. Not forgetting the IOW tube stock from 1938!!

 

[HSTEd]

To further split hairs the Class 455's with SWT/Southern have Westinghouse brake gear from 4 SUB's units circa 1930's, & the wessex units with southern have traction motors from the 4 REP units which first hit the rails in 1966. Not forgetting the IOW tube stock from 1938!!

The Traction gear on the 442s will last until the end of time.

It is literally a mass of solid blocks of metal.

 

[tbtc]

Don't forget our lovely 308's in Yorkshire !

Absolutely - the three coach slam door 308s will make the 319s destined for Lancashire feel like luxury