Unsuitable Rolling Stock

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ChristopherJ

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Post any examples of railway services operated by unsuitable rolling stock.

In my area, NXEA (and continued by GA) begun using class 317 EMUs on local inner suburban passenger services as the staple norm, routes including London-Chingford, Romford-Upminster and more rarely on London-Shenfield, in preference to more suitable class 315 EMUs. These aforementioned routes include station stops as frequent as half a mile apart - whereby the average journey speed does not exceed 30mph - despite the use of rolling stock with 100mph max speed, unsuitable gearing for frequent slow speed travel and low density interior seating on suburban routes. It has been noted that 317s also loose time (2-3 mins) in comparison to 315s due to the gearing differential.

A contact at c2c informed me that when LTS Rail hired 317/1s from WAGN, because of prolonged use on frequent stopping services - when they was returned they was almost impossible to get above 70mph.

I was on 317666, aka Damien <D, on an all stations London - Bishops Stortford (via Seven Sisters) service last night - jeeze did it sound rough - I was in a mood to say to the driver "excuse me driver, do you know your traction motors are ****ed?"
 
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Schnellzug

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Post any examples of railway services operated by unsuitable rolling stock.

In my area, NXEA (and continued by GA) begun using class 317 EMUs on local inner suburban passenger services as the staple norm, routes including London-Chingford, Romford-Upminster and more rarely on London-Shenfield, in preference to more suitable class 315 EMUs. These aforementioned routes include station stops as frequent as half a mile apart - whereby the average journey speed does not exceed 30mph - despite the use of rolling stock with 100mph max speed, unsuitable gearing for frequent slow speed travel and low density interior seating on suburban routes. It has been noted that 317s also loose time (2-3 mins) in comparison to 315s due to the gearing differential.

A contact at c2c informed me that when LTS Rail hired 317/1s from WAGN, because of prolonged use on frequent stopping services - when they was returned they was almost impossible to get above 70mph.

I was on 317666, aka Damien <D, on an all stations London - Bishops Stortford (via Seven Sisters) service last night - jeeze did it sound rough - I was in a mood to say to the driver "excuse me driver, do you know your traction motors are ****ed?"
I suppose they've got more 321s now, and they're so much more superior from the passenger's point of view ...


(This may be ironic.)
 

Nym

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I'll give this thread 1 page max before decending into pacer bashing...

Personally, 185s on the TPE Scottish services, was on the 1616 off Piccadilly for Edinbrugh last night, doubled up to 6 carriages and not even any standing room left off Oxford Road... Needs to be, well, bigger, and run in addition to the Lakes services, not instead of them.
 

jopsuk

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The reason they do it though is that they don't have enough 315s to cover all the GE and Lee Valley Metro services with 8-car trains.
 

Yew

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In Lincoln it's not uncommon to get doubled up pacers during the day, and
Then to see a 153 work a peak service
 

Rhydgaled

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Class 150 = inner suburban / short country branch line unit
Class 158 = regional express unit

10:57 Cardiff Central - Fishguard Harbour (calling at Llanelli and Whitland only) = regional express service
13:30 Fishguard Harbour - Cardiff Central (ignoring the fact it extends to Cheltenham Spa) (calling at Whitland, Carmarthen and Llanelli only) = regional express service

So what do ATW use? A 150 of course:o Seriously, they shouldn't be using a 150 on that service, woefully inappropriate (a pair of 153s in multiple would be better, but a 158 is really what it should be).
 

Drsatan

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Must be the Pacer! Would love to see the look on the faces of commuters in the south east if one of these bone shakers turned up!
Here we go again :lol:

Pacers are NOT banned from operating over 3rd rail lines. At Hunts Cross station they operate over tracks electrified at 750 DC. Although I'd agree with you that if a 142 turned up on the Dorking - Victoria via Mitcham service (or any other service in London), then I think the Evening Standard would scream blue murder and BoJo would get very ****ed off. Then undoubtedly Ken would capitalise on the issue of pacers being used in London for political gain etc etc.
 

starrymarkb

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Here we go again :lol:

Pacers are NOT banned from operating over 3rd rail lines. At Hunts Cross station they operate over tracks electrified at 750 DC. Although I'd agree with you that if a 142 turned up on the Dorking - Victoria via Mitcham service (or any other service in London), then I think the Evening Standard would scream blue murder and BoJo would get very ****ed off. Then undoubtedly Ken would capitalise on the issue of pacers being used in London for political gain etc etc.
He didn't say they were banned. (though someone might have been along shortly)

NSE rejected pacers and sprinters because they intended a common family of DMU and EMUs with significant commonality (The Networker). The first appearing in 1991 was the Cl165 with the first EMU being the 465. These would have been the template for all NSE orders with differing doors, lengths and cabs but the same fundamental components.

The idea eventually became the Turbostar and Electrostar.
 

SprinterMan

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NXEA using 317/7s (former Stansted Express Stock) on GEML commuter runs. A 12 car 317/7 has less seats than an 8 car 321, and a 4 car 317/7 only has a few more standard class seats than a 156. So NXEA put them on commuter runs. Inspired decision there NXEA. GA have handed them back to the ROSCO and still managed to keep overall capacity about the same through better fleet utilisation, saving themselves (and I like to think us, the passengers) a considerable amount of money.

Also....

NXEA using 170s through to London. PBO/LWT-London may look good on paper, but they were putting 3 car DMUs with appalling acceleration on busy semi-fast runs from Ipswich to London that should have been 8 car EMUs. NXEA then bought back the old FGE timetable and stopped doing this, then heralded it as a big improvement. Also LWT-London is now quicker with a change at Ipswich that it was when it was direct.
 

David

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In Lincoln it's not uncommon to get doubled up pacers during the day, and
Then to see a 153 work a peak service
I would love to know where the doubled up Pacers come from, as they originate from Scunthorpe during the day, and it's only a single unit that leaves there.

Also, the bay where they are stabled between turns at Scunthorpe (to allow the TPE services to pass) can only fit a 3 car pacer or 2 car 15x.
 

Drsatan

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He didn't say they were banned. (though someone might have been along shortly)

NSE rejected pacers and sprinters because they intended a common family of DMU and EMUs with significant commonality (The Networker). The first appearing in 1991 was the Cl165 with the first EMU being the 465. These would have been the template for all NSE orders with differing doors, lengths and cabs but the same fundamental components.

The idea eventually became the Turbostar and Electrostar.
I believe NSE wanted to order 155s to directly replace class 47s & 50s on services to Oxford, until NSE decided instead to pursue the Networker program.
 

VTPreston_Tez

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Anything FGW use from Weymouth-Gloucester. I think it's a 150 that's used, but it lacks tables and all the other amenities needed for a three hour stopping journey, and that's just up to Bristol Parkway.
 

F Great Eastern

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NXEA using 170s through to London. PBO/LWT-London may look good on paper, but they were putting 3 car DMUs with appalling acceleration on busy semi-fast runs from Ipswich to London that should have been 8 car EMUs. NXEA then bought back the old FGE timetable and stopped doing this, then heralded it as a big improvement. Also LWT-London is now quicker with a change at Ipswich that it was when it was direct.
Prior to the first proper timetable recast after 'one' came in off-peak there was 2x Class 86/90 sets an hour from Norwich to London and 2x 4 car 360's from Norwich giving 4 trains an hour.

When they changed the timetable it was 2x90 sets from Norwich to London and one 2 or three car 170 from Peterborough or Lowestoft, many of which were nearly full by the time that they reached Ipswich.

The perhaps worst aspect of this was that the last train before peak restrictions kicked in from London, happened to be a 170. And for a period at least there was a shortage of three cars, so you had a mad rush for the last train before peak restrictions kicked in, all wedging themselves on a two car DMU from London to Lowestoft, calling at several extra stations than the loco hauled stock between London and Ipswich that held hardly anyone.
 

yorksrob

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Mersey pacer - particularly unsuitable for anywhere in the universe - but particularly the hope valley as i've just had to miss a train to avoid one.
 

paul1609

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Must be the Pacer! Would love to see the look on the faces of commuters in the south east if one of these bone shakers turned up!
lets face it if the Pacers came south they would soon be refurbished and being maintained properly reliability would soar. Whatever went north in their place would quickly become filthy dirty and allowed to fall to bits.
Compare stock of the same age and design in the north and south. Which would you rather travel on a Northern 158 or a SWT 159? A southern 313 or a pacer half it age??



 

Lampshade

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I'll give this thread 1 page max before decending into pacer bashing...

Personally, 185s on the TPE Scottish services, was on the 1616 off Piccadilly for Edinbrugh last night, doubled up to 6 carriages and not even any standing room left off Oxford Road... Needs to be, well, bigger, and run in addition to the Lakes services, not instead of them.
The 1616 is Edinburgh/Windermere and the 1715 is Glasgow/Barrow.
 

WestCoast

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lets face it if the Pacers came south they would soon be refurbished and being maintained properly reliability would soar. Whatever went north in their place would quickly become filthy dirty and allowed to fall to bits.
Compare stock of the same age and design in the north and south. Which would you rather travel on a Northern 158 or a SWT 159? A southern 313 or a pacer half it age??
I am not quite sure what you're implying there. There are more TOCs operating "in the North" than just Northern Rail. Oh, and Northern's 158s aren't bad either.

First TransPennine Express 185s are just as well presented as South West Trains 444s/450s. TPE 170s are just as good as Southern's equivalents.

Equally so, Merseyrail 507s/508s, which are of the same series as Southern 313s, are not vastly different either. They have both been refurbished thoroughly featuring bay seating and automated announcements.

It's not about age with the Pacers either, it's about quality and suitability for some of the routes they are put on.
 

CC 72100

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Anything FGW use from Weymouth-Gloucester. I think it's a 150 that's used, but it lacks tables and all the other amenities needed for a three hour stopping journey, and that's just up to Bristol Parkway.
Whilst it does seem a bit strange that this diagram gets a 150 (doubled up from bristol), especially when considering a 158 is used on a Westbury - Bristol Parkway stopper (or at least was yesterday), more often than not one of the units is a 150/2, which if it is an FGW example, does have tables and armrests. A 150/1 on that service though is a bit daft, what with its 3+2 seating
 

PHILIPE

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Class 150 = inner suburban / short country branch line unit
Class 158 = regional express unit

10:57 Cardiff Central - Fishguard Harbour (calling at Llanelli and Whitland only) = regional express service
13:30 Fishguard Harbour - Cardiff Central (ignoring the fact it extends to Cheltenham Spa) (calling at Whitland, Carmarthen and Llanelli only) = regional express service

So what do ATW use? A 150 of course:o Seriously, they shouldn't be using a 150 on that service, woefully inappropriate (a pair of 153s in multiple would be better, but a 158 is really what it should be).
You have to have a 158 available. The 150 is combined with Cardiff Valley working over routes where 158s not cleared. On occasions is worked by a Pacer which is not very suitable for the return if there has been a rough crossing over the Irish Sea.
 

brad465

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I've seen 377's operate suburban Southern services, when theoretically 455's and 456's should be using them, good examples being on the Tattenham Corner Branch, and the London Bridge-Victoria via Peckham Rye occasionally.
 

LE Greys

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Whilst it does seem a bit strange that this diagram gets a 150 (doubled up from bristol), especially when considering a 158 is used on a Westbury - Bristol Parkway stopper (or at least was yesterday), more often than not one of the units is a 150/2, which if it is an FGW example, does have tables and armrests. A 150/1 on that service though is a bit daft, what with its 3+2 seating
Now that's a perfect 158 turn if ever there was one. A 'bits-n-pieces' service where they get the chance to use their speed on the short main line sections, if only briefly. Far better than putting them on the Far North or Kyle (top speed 60/70 - 156 turn) or Aberdeen-Inverness (which needs 170s) or the Fife Circle (which needs electrifying).

As for Pacers, they don't suit either Newcastle-Carlisle or Leeds-Morecambe. Still, most off-peak Hereford turns really don't rate an HST when FGW could have done a lot better by hanging onto the 180s.
 

AlanFry1

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Post any examples of railway services operated by unsuitable rolling stock.

In my area, NXEA (and continued by GA) begun using class 317 EMUs on local inner suburban passenger services as the staple norm, routes including London-Chingford, Romford-Upminster and more rarely on London-Shenfield, in preference to more suitable class 315 EMUs. These aforementioned routes include station stops as frequent as half a mile apart - whereby the average journey speed does not exceed 30mph - despite the use of rolling stock with 100mph max speed, unsuitable gearing for frequent slow speed travel and low density interior seating on suburban routes. It has been noted that 317s also loose time (2-3 mins) in comparison to 315s due to the gearing differential.

A contact at c2c informed me that when LTS Rail hired 317/1s from WAGN, because of prolonged use on frequent stopping services - when they was returned they was almost impossible to get above 70mph.

I was on 317666, aka Damien <D, on an all stations London - Bishops Stortford (via Seven Sisters) service last night - jeeze did it sound rough - I was in a mood to say to the driver "excuse me driver, do you know your traction motors are ****ed?"
Those class 317 are far better than those terrible and out of date class 315, it is about time GA ordered more Class 379, so that more of the class 317 and 321 can be used on the GA routes done by class 315, so they they can finally be withdrawn. Also GA should bring back the stored 317/7 trains as well



 

LE Greys

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Those class 317 are far better than those terrible and out of date class 315, it is about time GA ordered more Class 379, so that more of the class 317 and 321 can be used on the GA routes done by class 315, so they they can finally be withdrawn. Also GA should bring back the stored 317/7 trains as well
Make that 378s or whatever their replacement is, and that makes more sense. Then they could withdraw the 31Xs entirely and send them somewhere else, plus having modern inner-suburban stock to work their inner-suburban routes.
 

SprinterMan

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Those class 317 are far better than those terrible and out of date class 315, it is about time GA ordered more Class 379, so that more of the class 317 and 321 can be used on the GA routes done by class 315, so they they can finally be withdrawn. Also GA should bring back the stored 317/7 trains as well



317s/321s have 4 large electric motors and are geared for 100mph, therefore having poor acceleration. 315s have 8 small electric motors and are geared for 75mph, therefore having better acceleration.

This means that 321s/317s cannot work 315 diagrams and vice-versa, because of the performance differential.
 
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