Virgin Trains ticket row

[Bletchleyite]

Again, apologies for not being clearer (as clarity is of course essential in this context), but I meant "entering Preston station to start the journey to London by boarding a train there".

Yes, I agree. It would only be valid to join a train at Preston to London during the peak if the passenger had arrived at Preston by train from Lancaster and not left the station between doing so and boarding the train.

 

[All Line Rover]

For those wondering why the recently introduced off-peak first class fares from Euston are not available to stations north of Preston, this thread explains it. If Virgin were to offer such fares with Lancaster restrictions, effectively all VTWC departures from Euston in the afternoon and evening would be "off-peak" for many first class passengers, which would be patently absurd given the level of demand from business travellers (not that Virgin couldn't apply stricter restrictions for first class Lancaster off-peak tickets than standard class Lancaster off-peak tickets).

Lancaster passengers wishing to take advantage of first class off-peak fares can, of course, split at Preston, but will be subject to the off-peak restrictions applying to passengers for Preston.

 

[pemma]

I've updated the original post to include some more information from a different article - the loophole is what cuccir suggested that he drove to Lancaster to save money rather than travelling from Preston as usual.

 

[Joe Paxton]

He exploited a loophole if he made a genuine break of journey, no matter how short, in Preston. Which could be considered worse by some than simply starting short at Preston!

Yes, what's behind particular incident could revolve around what constitutes a "break of journey". However there's not enough information in the story to say for sure what happened.

Edit - just read jcollins's post above, quoting the Lancashire Evening Posts's story. Looks like cuccir in post #10 was correct - the staff recognised him as a regular from Lancaster, and jumped to an erroneous conclusion. The ITV News report seems to have got it all somewhat muddled up.

I guess with smartcard ticketing a validation would provide proof of where and when someone started a journey (like a compostage).

 

[najaB]

Let's not get into semantics. It is safe to say that there is a difference of opinion.

But it's not a question of semantics, it's the basis of the system of 'Peak' v 'Off-peak'. If peak/off-peak was determined solely by the train's departure time from it's starting station rather than by the ticket held and boarding time I would have to pay an Anytime fare to travel home from London to Dundee on the 1730 departure from Euston despite not arriving until near 1am.

 

[najaB]

I've updated the original post to include some more information from a different article - the loophole is what cuccir suggested that he drove to Lancaster to save money rather than travelling from Preston as usual.

Then there is no question that Virgin was in the wrong.

 

[All Line Rover]

But it's not a question of semantics, it's the basis of the system of 'Peak' v 'Off-peak'. If peak/off-peak was determined solely by the train's departure time from it's starting station rather than by the ticket held and boarding time I would have to pay an Anytime fare to travel home from London to Dundee on the 1730 departure from Euston despite not arriving until near 1am.

We had the opportunity to discuss this in another thread (now locked). I wouldn't want this thread to turn into another perennial debate which is not relevant to the thread's topic.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I guess with smartcard ticketing a validation would provide proof of where and when someone started a journey (like a compostage).

There are many, many benefits of "compostage" and few drawbacks from the TOC's point of view. I'm really surprised it has not been introduced, and if it was it'd solve a load of problems.

 

[Hadders]

On the face of it this is very poor from Virgin.

You cannot simply accuse customers of evading their fare without any proof. They hadn't got any proof as we are led to believe the CCTV showed the passenger boarded at Lancaster.

The correct way to catch people using the 'Lancaster Loophole' is to do a revenue block at Preston station. That way they'd have all the evidence they need.

 

[Joe Paxton]

There are many, many benefits of "compostage" and few drawbacks from the TOC's point of view. I'm really surprised it has not been introduced, and if it was it'd solve a load of problems.

I can't see it being introduced for paper tickets now, however useful it might be. Smartcards are the future. Apparently. As they have been for the past ten years...

 

[sheff1]

I initially thought the most absurd thing was that the person who had checked the passenger's ticket north of Preston was the one who subsequently accused him of having boarded at Preston ....

... but then I read: A spokesman for Virgin Trains on the West Coast route said: “Virgin Trains has an excellent reputation for customer service ".

 

[Mag_seven]

According to the passenger the same conductor checked his ticket three times, yet on the third inspection the conductor stated he didn't recognise the passenger from the first two inspections. Why didn't the conductor stamp the ticket on the 1st check between Lancaster and Preston? If he had done that then there would have been no doubt surely?

 

[sheff1]

There are many, many benefits of "compostage" and few drawbacks from the TOC's point of view. I'm really surprised it has not been introduced, and if it was it'd solve a load of problems.

"Not invented here" was presumably the original reason. Now, it would appear, overtaken by "Smartcards will solve everything".

 

[pemma]

... but then I read: A spokesman for Virgin Trains on the West Coast route said: “Virgin Trains has an excellent reputation for customer service ".

Indeed. I remember those threads about a conductor who worked Manchester-London trains claiming his train was a peak train and that passengers from North Wales weren't allowed to join at Crewe with off-peak tickets.

 

[cuccir]

I've updated the original post to include some more information from a different article - the loophole is what cuccir suggested that he drove to Lancaster to save money rather than travelling from Preston as usual.

Hmm, this forum needs a smilie to display 'smug'

 

[sheff1]

- the loophole is what cuccir suggested that he drove to Lancaster to save money rather than travelling from Preston as usual.

Will Virgin's next tactic be a demand for proof of address from anyone holding a ticket from Lancaster ?

 

[All Line Rover]

Why is a person's address, of whatever sort (home, client, office, ...), relevant?

 

[najaB]

Will Virgin's next tactic be a demand for proof of address from anyone holding a ticket from Lancaster ?

Which wouldn't even help as there's nothing stopping a Prestonian from driving to Lancaster to catch the train from there.

I'm all for TOCs protecting revenue, but they really scored an own-goal in this instance.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Which wouldn't even help as there's nothing stopping a Prestonian from driving to Lancaster to catch the train from there.

Or, for that matter, buying a return from Preston to Lancaster simply to avoid these stupid rules.

Virgin have always been the worst at these pathetic price-gouging rules, but Saint Richard seemingly can do no wrong. It's amazing really.

 

[AlterEgo]

On the face of it this is very poor from Virgin.

You cannot simply accuse customers of evading their fare without any proof. They hadn't got any proof as we are led to believe the CCTV showed the passenger boarded at Lancaster.

The correct way to catch people using the 'Lancaster Loophole' is to do a revenue block at Preston station. That way they'd have all the evidence they need.

Completely agreed.

 

[WCML TRAVELLER]

Completely agreed.

Pardon my ignorance but what is a "Fare Block"

sorry a revenue block

The correct way to catch people using the 'Lancaster Loophole' is to do a revenue block at Preston station. That way they'd have all the evidence they need

 

[Failed Unit]

Pardon my ignorance but what is a "Fare Block"

sorry a revenue block

The correct way to catch people using the 'Lancaster Loophole' is to do a revenue block at Preston station. That way they'd have all the evidence they need

Have RPI at Preston so you can't get on the platform without passing them. That way anyone with a Lancaster ticket can't get on the platform.

 

[Hadders]

Pardon my ignorance but what is a "Fare Block"

sorry a revenue block

The correct way to catch people using the 'Lancaster Loophole' is to do a revenue block at Preston station. That way they'd have all the evidence they need

You do a thorough, manual ticket inspection on every possible entrance of everyone entering Preston station. That way you can be sure no-one can board at Preston with a Lancaster ticket. You can also give a separate ticket or token to anyone boarding at Lancaster - during an onboard inspection anyone with a Lancaster ticket who cannot produce the separate ticket or token can be assumed not to have boarded there.

Instead we have poorly trained gestapo who are no doubt well meaning but lacking the necessary training or skills to deal with a situation that has now become brand damaging for Virgin and the railway as a whole.

The media also needs to be careful what it wishes for here. Do they think off peak restrictions from Preston and the south will be relaxed to match those from Lancaster or will those from Lancaster and the North be tightened to match Preston's.

I know which way I'd bet....

 

[WCML TRAVELLER]

Thanks for that - i also know which way o would bet, in the Independent Virgin stated the following:

The difference in charges relates to a reduction in fares for customers travelling to destinations north of Preston rather than an increase in fares for those travelling to/from Preston and destinations south of that, the company said.

Virgin has relaxed peak restrictions on some of its longer distance routes where there are more leisure travellers who are less likely to be commuting into London in the busy peak period – in cases such as this, the cheap price would encourage customers for day trips to London from places like Lancaster

so we know what may be coming down the line now.....

 

[paddington]

You do a thorough, manual ticket inspection on every possible entrance of everyone entering Preston station. That way you can be sure no-one can board at Preston with a Lancaster ticket. You can also give a separate ticket or token to anyone boarding at Lancaster - during an onboard inspection anyone with a Lancaster ticket who cannot produce the separate ticket or token can be assumed not to have boarded there.

What if you arrive at Preston by train (perhaps from Lostock Hall) and then board with a Lancaster ticket?

Will tokens be distributed to people arriving at Lancaster from Barrow and intending to board the London service?

 

[philthetube]

You do a thorough, manual ticket inspection on every possible entrance of everyone entering Preston station. That way you can be sure no-one can board at Preston with a Lancaster ticket. You can also give a separate ticket or token to anyone boarding at Lancaster - during an onboard inspection anyone with a Lancaster ticket who cannot produce the separate ticket or token can be assumed not to have boarded there.

Easier to put one extra member of staff on the train and mark all tickets on board. Then you know who boarded an preston and further south.

 

[a_c_skinner]

If you are on this train from LAN on an off peak any permitted you hear an announcement at PRE saying only anytime and advanced tickets are valid. Mrs S alighted and cooled her heels for half an hour at PRE recently because of this, despite having a valid ticket. Now I've been on this train and heard the announcement I've complained to Virgin. They were being very vigorous on this train with a full inspection between LAN and PRE with extra staff getting on at LAN for this. I overheard a discussion around Crewe about where someone had got on, the answer was Preston, despite a Lancaster ticket. They should have said they did LAN to PRE on Transpennine to use the better facilities at PRE.

Andrew

 

[Gareth Marston]

Preston to Wigan NW Anytime Day Reurn is £7.70. Anyone with one of these is through any rPI block at Preston.........

 

[PhilipW]

Often it is the case that your end destination lies between two stations. Which station you get off at and return from could vary depending on, say, where it is convenient for someone to pick you up or drop you off. This has happened to me in the past. Common sense then says that if you buy a ticket to the station furthest away, you should be alright.

If buying a ticket to Lancaster and alighting at Preston is illegal, I take it then that logically the following are also wrong.
a) Buying a ticket to Manchester Piccadilly and alighting at Stockport
b) Buying a ticket to Glasgow Central and alighting at Motherwell.
c) Buying a ticket to Liverpool Lime Street and alighting at Runcorn.
d) Buying a ticket to Birmingham New Street and alighting at Birmingham International.
e) Buying a ticket to London Waterloo and alighting at Clapham Junction
f) Buying a ticket to Southampton Central and alighting at Southampton Airport Parkway.

This last example is the one I have often done. This is not with the intention of cheating anyone but purely because I do not know which of the two stations I will return from. That's normal living. What's the problem ?

So why can't someone going to somewhere in the general Lancaster/Preston area buy a ticket to Lancaster and alight at Preston. I say that the problem is not with the customer but with Virgin for having such a ridiculous fare structure.

 

[Hadders]

Thanks for that - i also know which way o would bet, in the Independent Virgin stated the following:

The difference in charges relates to a reduction in fares for customers travelling to destinations north of Preston rather than an increase in fares for those travelling to/from Preston and destinations south of that, the company said.

Virgin has relaxed peak restrictions on some of its longer distance routes where there are more leisure travellers who are less likely to be commuting into London in the busy peak period – in cases such as this, the cheap price would encourage customers for day trips to London from places like Lancaster

so we know what may be coming down the line now.....

I don't think Virgin have relaxed anything. I believe the restrictions go back to British Rail days and are protected by regulation. Virgin would love to get rid of regulation which is why we should be very wary of recent claims of fares simplification.