Virgin Trains ticket row

[nedchester]

Can you buy a Lancaster to Euston SVR and use it correctly Lancaster to Euston and then travel north on the 1630 ex Euston and then get off at Preston.

That should be valid as Break of Journey is allowed on the return half AND allowed on the 'peak' 1630 ex Euston.

 

[najaB]

Can you buy a Lancaster to Euston SVR and use it correctly Lancaster to Euston and then travel north on the 1630 ex Euston and then get off at Preston.

If it is the SVR, then yes. But some websites will sell you two Saver Half (SVH) tickets which both have BOJ restrictions.

 

[30907]

If buying a ticket to Lancaster and alighting at Preston is illegal.
So why can't someone going to somewhere in the general Lancaster/Preston area buy a ticket to Lancaster and alight at Preston. I say that the problem is not with the customer but with Virgin for having such a ridiculous fare structure.

It isn't and they can (unless Advance tickets are involved AND the TOC decides not to exercise discretion.

But this thread is about Off Peak tickets FROM Lancaster (etc) not being valid for break of journey/starting short/stopping short/ on the outward leg. A practice going back (on various routes) pushing 40 years

Sorry, Hadders got there first.

 

[a_c_skinner]

Sorry, my reply made no sense, I've lost the posting to which it replied

 

[PhilipW]

But this thread is about Off Peak tickets FROM Lancaster (etc) not being valid for break of journey/starting short/stopping short/ on the outward leg. A practice going back (on various routes) pushing 40 years

But the same 'cliff edge' fare structure exists if northbound is the outward journey.

If someone travelling northbound one evening for business the next day or for a weekend away, there is no 'offpeak' return to Preston on the 16:30 and 17:30 (and possibly others). However offpeak return is allowed for Lancaster, so he buys that and gets off at Preston. Whether Virgin check that so stringently, I do not know but the price saving is just as much as the southbound return.

 

[najaB]

Whether Virgin check that so stringently, I do not know but the price saving is just as much as the southbound return.

Most of the time our intrepid passenger would get away with it. The problem is what happens the day that Virgin decide to run a revenue block.

I suppose if they saw the block they could just hop on the next train to Lancaster.

 

[SA_900]

Indeed. I remember those threads about a conductor who worked Manchester-London trains claiming his train was a peak train and that passengers from North Wales weren't allowed to join at Crewe with off-peak tickets.

Do you have a link?

 

[PhilipW]

To invert my previous post to use the outbound journey, I presume that most people would find the following examples quite acceptable:

a) Buying a ticket from Manchester Piccadilly to Euston but actually boarding at Stockport
b) Buying a ticket from Glasgow Central to Euston but actually boarding at Motherwell.
c) Buying a ticket from Liverpool Lime Street to Euston but actually boarding at Runcorn.
d) Buying a ticket from Birmingham New Street to Euston but actually boarding at Birmingham International.
e) Buying a ticket from London Waterloo to Southampton Central but actually boarding at Clapham Junction
f) Buying a ticket from Southampton Central to Waterloo but actually boarding at Southampton Airport Parkway.

So buying a ticket from Lancaster to Euston but actually boarding at Preston follows the same logical process. Virgin may say I am breaking their rules, but they will be hard pushed to convince me I am doing anything morally wrong.
As I have said, I have done the last example (f) many times.

 

[AlterEgo]

To invert my previous post to use the outbound journey, I presume that most people would find the following examples quite acceptable:

a) Buying a ticket from Manchester Piccadilly to Euston but actually boarding at Stockport
b) Buying a ticket from Glasgow Central to Euston but actually boarding at Motherwell.
c) Buying a ticket from Liverpool Lime Street to Euston but actually boarding at Runcorn.
d) Buying a ticket from Birmingham New Street to Euston but actually boarding at Birmingham International.
e) Buying a ticket from London Waterloo to Southampton Central but actually boarding at Clapham Junction
f) Buying a ticket from Southampton Central to Waterloo but actually boarding at Southampton Airport Parkway.

So buying a ticket from Lancaster to Euston but actually boarding at Preston follows the same logical process. Virgin may say I am breaking their rules, but they will be hard pushed to convince me I am doing anything morally wrong.
As I said I have done the last example (f) many times.

What should the fares for Lancaster and Preston be then? The BoJ restriction is to protect the Preston fare.

 

[najaB]

So buying a ticket from Lancaster to Euston but actually boarding at Preston follows the same logical process. Virgin may say I am breaking their rules, but they will be hard pushed to convince me I am doing anything morally wrong..

There is nothing wrong with starting your journey by boarding the 0758 at Preston with a Lancaster to Euston Anytime ticket.

 

[PhilipW]

What should the fares for Lancaster and Preston be then? The BoJ restriction is to protect the Preston fare.

Perhaps the root of the problem lies with the fact that the Preston fare more resembles a telephone number.

 

[AlterEgo]

Perhaps the root of the problem lies with the fact that the Preston fare more resembles a telephone number.

What should it be then?

What should the Lancaster fare also be to compensate?

 

[PhilipW]

What should it be then?

What should the Lancaster fare also be to compensate?

I can't sit here and rewrite the West Coast fares manual. Obviously.

However I think that I am quite entitled to air an opinion that being charged £175.50 for a one way fare from Preston to London (and double for a return) if you wish or need to travel at certain times of the day is a figure which is out of reach of most British people. I would also argue that most people would also find it strange that if you wished to travel a little further at that same time of day you could do so for about 25-30% of that figure.

 

[cuccir]

. Virgin may say I am breaking their rules, but they will be hard pushed to convince me I am doing anything morally wrong.

To be fair, Virgin are not the only company to have this sort of restriction on the outward leg of an Off-Peak ticket - but this case must produce one of the largest price differences.

 

[Sheepy1209]

Funny how this situation has suddenly got the attention of the press and MP's, just a few months after Virgin started checking tickets on the entrances to platforms 3 and 4.

For years Virgin fleeced occasional travellers from Preston while those 'in the know' simply bought a Lancaster ticket thinking it was a valid loophole. I doubt whether many of them even realised they were doing anything wrong - after all, the restriction was never publicised and their tickets rarely checked.

Given the reputational damage this is causing for Virgin, and the years before where they turned a blind eye, are they only doing this under pressure from DfT? If I remember rightly they committed to installing barriers at many stations but these aren't workable at Preston.

The gentleman concerned is doing the same as I do - it's pretty much the same distance and time to both Lancaster and Preston. My employer tends to wince if I claim for an Anytime to London, so I would do the journey far less often.

The ones that never seem to be mentioned are the Wigan (and Warrington?) customers - they can't so easily drive to Lancaster but they're hit by the same restrictions.

I don't know if it would convince a Guard or the BTP but in that situation I would have probably shown them my Timeline on Google Maps. My phone is tracked and it shows where I was and when, how fast I was travelling, and makes a pretty good stab of working out that I was on a train. Many people are uncomfortable about this kind of tracking, but it can be really useful.

(and to put the fare into perspective - only this week I travelled from Blackpool to Paisley and back for £35. Pretty much the same distance and same time, but opposite direction, much lower demand and a really pleasant trip. Beats that London any day.)

 

[AlterEgo]

I can't sit here and rewrite the West Coast fares manual. Obviously.

However I think that I am quite entitled to air an opinion that being charged £175.50 for a one way fare from Preston to London (and double for a return) if you wish or need to travel at certain times of the day is a figure which is out of reach of most British people. I would also argue that most people would also find it strange that if you wished to travel a little further at that same time of day you could do so for about 25-30% of that figure.

But you don't wish to understand why that happens. It happens because Virgin set a very generous Off Peak restriction from Lancaster northwards. Basically, if you live in, say, Glasgow and need to travel to London, VT let you have a full day of it on an Off Peak as they realise your choice is limited. But it wouldn't be commercially sensible to do that for the whole route, so a line has to be set somewhere. Unfortunately, it's between Lancaster and Preston.

The Anytime fares are not meant to be in the reach of most private pockets, but they are well utilised by their intended market: the business traveller.

 

[a_c_skinner]

What is the rationale of this odd pricing structure? It seems to make no sense. Not that I am complaining of course, being a Lancaster traveller.

 

[soil]

The NRCoT do NOT prohibit starting short.

"Generally, you may start, or break and resume, a journey (in either direction in the case of a return Ticket) at any intermediate station, as long as the Ticket you hold is valid for the trains you want to use. "

Nowhere is starting short defined as BoJ

 

[Bertie the bus]

Nowhere is starting short defined as BoJ

Technically it is. If we use the old definition of BoJ, i.e. leaving the station premises, then how is it possible to use a Lancaster - Euston ticket, start at Preston and not leave the railway's premises between Lancaster and Euston?

 

[soil]

Technically it is. If we use the old definition of BoJ, i.e. leaving the station premises, then how is it possible to use a Lancaster - Euston ticket, start at Preston and not leave the railway's premises between Lancaster and Euston?

What old definition? The CoT are a 36-page standalone document. There is no requirement to refer to 'old definitions'.

In full:

"16.2 Most Tickets allow you to break your journey. This means that you do not have to make the whole of your journey at the same time or, where allowed, on the same day.

16.3 Where a break of journey is allowed, there is no limit to the number of times that you can do so within a Ticket’s period of validity, until the journey is completed.

16.4 Generally, you may start, or break and resume, a journey (in either direction in the case of a return Ticket) at any intermediate station, as long as the Ticket you hold is valid for the trains you want to use. However, this may not be the case with some through services that take an indirect route. You may also end your journey (in either direction in the case of a return Ticket) before the destination shown on the Ticket.

INFORMATION: For example, where a train service makes a circular journey, you may travel either way to the destination on your ticket. However, you would not normally be allowed to get off at an intermediate station where the fare would have been higher.

16.5 If you start, break or resume your journey at an intermediate station where you are not entitled to do so, you will be liable to pay an excess fare. The price for this will be the difference between the amount paid for the Ticket you hold and the lowest price Ticket available for immediate travel that would have entitled you to start, break or resume your journey at the station concerned.
"

Nowhere is starting short defined as BoJ. It only says that indirect services may have exceptions.

Nothing about buying a ticket from Glasgow but getting on at Preston.

A break of journey is a break of journey. Starting short is not by reasonable meaning 'break of journey'.

Stopping short is more reasonably construed as BoJ, as conceptually you could resume. But when you start on a Lancaster ticket at Preston, that's the start of the journey. How can there be a break if the journey only just started?

 

[Bertie the bus]

The old definition of BoJ as defined in the Conditions of Carriage. The Conditions of Travel don't have a definition of BoJ, and starting short is obviously a break of journey as I have described if we use the only definition that is available.

 

[PhilipW]

The Anytime fares are not meant to be in the reach of most private pockets, but they are well utilised by their intended market: the business traveller.

I am glad that someone else has written this, not me. Indeed I agree that Anytime fares are there for the business traveller. In effect that is saying that for a large number people, dare I say 'most', train travel is effectively banned for them at certain times of the day. That includes me.

I know that most TOCs reply that the majority of non-business people don't pay anytime fares anyway, it is only a small percentage, the hapless and the dimwitted perhaps.

Still all this will be sorted out in May when the new 'Fares Simplication' initiative swings into action. I wish. A standard differential between 'peak' and 'off peak' fares would be a good start. I can dream.

 

[soil]

Note that when you buy a no-BOJ ticket on VT website, the popup says

"BREAK OF JOURNEY
Break of journey is generally permitted unless prohibited for the journey that you are making. If you intend to break your journey, please contact us to check if it is permitted. You can always break your journey where necessary to change train."

and

"Travel is allowed via any permitted route.
Flexible ticket only valid at specific off-peak times of the day."


So they try and arrest people based on rules they lie about at point of sale. Flexible ticket surely includes BoJ

 

[sheff1]

But you don't wish to understand why that happens. It happens because Virgin set a very generous Off Peak restriction from Lancaster northwards. Basically, if you live in, say, Glasgow and need to travel to London, VT let you have a full day of it on an Off Peak as they realise your choice is limited. But it wouldn't be commercially sensible to do that for the whole route, so a line has to be set somewhere. Unfortunately, it's between Lancaster and Preston.

Previously, Saver tickets from stations Carlisle to Warrington inclusive could be used from Carlisle 0645, Penrith 0702, Oxenholme 0728, Lancaster 0757, Preston 0820, Wigan 0834, Warrington 0844. There were no restrictions from Glasgow.

I would not describe altering the restrictions from Carlisle, Penrith, Oxenholme & Lancaster to departures at 0649, 0642 (with a change), 0724 & 0738 as "setting a very generous Off Peak restriction from Lancaster northwards", although no doubt Virgin's press office would describe it as such . The only real change on the direct train is from Lancaster where you can leave a whole 19 mins earlier.

The problem has primarily been caused by Virgin delaying the earliest allowed departures from Preston, Wigan & Warrington by nearly an hour to 0917/0928/0939 with a change at Crewe (or continuing via Birmingham which means an earlier arrival at Euston is possible on the 0958/1009/1020 direct service via the Trent Valley).

 

[PhilipW]

If a traveller for London genuinely wants to board a train at Lancaster but alight at Preston on the way back because it suits him better, which ticket should he buy if travelling at times when 'off peak' tickets are valid to/from Lancaster but not to/from Preston.
a) Anytime return from Preston to Euston plus single from Lancaster to Preston
b) Anytime return from Lancaster to Euston
c) Offpeak return from Lancaster to Euston.

Similarly, if he wishes to board at Preston southbound but return to Lancaster on his return, which of the three options should he buy.

In both cases he is travelling exactly the same mileage at the same times of day, but I fear Virgin may want him to have different tickets and pay different amounts.

 

[MikeWh]

Flexible ticket surely includes BoJ

No. Flexible means valid on more than one train, as opposed to Advance which is only valid on the stated booked train(s).

 

[sheff1]

The old definition of BoJ as defined in the Conditions of Carriage. The Conditions of Travel don't have a definition of BoJ, and starting short is obviously a break of journey as I have described if we use the only definition that is available.

The Conditions of Carriage were superseded by the Conditions of Travel on 1 October 2016. A definition in an old document is of absolutely no relevance.

As you state yourself, there is no BoJ definition in the NRCoT which is the only Conditions document which is current.

 

[MichaelAMW]

I feel it's worth pointing out that part of the starkness of the contrast between the two fare types is the cheapness of SVRs on the WCML. The Lancaster - London off-peak return is about the same price as those from Derby and Grantham, which are obviously much shorter journeys, the latter in fact less than half the distance.

 

[Bertie the bus]

The Conditions of Carriage were superseded by the Conditions of Travel on 1 October 2016. A definition in an old document is of absolutely no relevance.

As you state yourself, there is no BoJ definition in the NRCoT which is the only Conditions document which is current.

There is no possible, logical definition of BoJ which would permit starting short. Just because the Conditions of Travel doesn't define it it doesn't mean passengers can define it themselves as whatever they want it to mean.

 

[soil]

Note that the Virgin Trains East Coast site says

https://www.virgintrainseastcoast.com/rail-travel/your-ticket/train-ticket-options/off-peak-tickets/

"Can I break my journey?
Yes, you can stop off at stations along your route of travel."

Obviously East Coast is not West Coast, except in reality it's not obvious at all to the average person who would just search 'virgin trains'

The VTWC site is silent on the matter.