VTEC to reduce number of travel centre staff

[hairyhandedfool]

For Advances that is solved by the "print it all on one ticket" approach.

Unless you have two or more reserved trains, when it is then then printed on two or more 'coupons'.

....And they should stop issuing "collection receipts", as they are pointless. And also make credit/debit card receipts optional, as most people do not want them these days - shops have already started this. Just issue a combined card and payment receipt if requested by pressing a nice big button at any time from selection of ticket until printing is completed.

A collection receipt, printed after all other tickets, does at least indicate all tickets are printed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Unless you have two or more reserved trains, when it is then then printed on two or more 'coupons'.

No, the new layout can fit 2 on (I have had this), it might even fit 3.

A collection receipt, printed after all other tickets, does at least indicate all tickets are printed.

There is that. But it does slow the TVM use down, as it takes an additional 10 seconds to print.

 

[The Ham]

Chances are in 20 years time the labour market will be very different to now with more automation and those jobs remaining being higher skilled. Taking an example from another industry people are already developing 3D "printable" buildings removing the need for construction sites to look like they do now. As such jobs which currently exist will not exist in the future and those that still exist will be different to what they are now.

With more and more automation then there is an argument that not everyone will need to continue to be employed full time to have a good standard of living. There are even some who think that there could be a possible future outcome where significant numbers of people are provided (by the state) a very basic standard of living (including things like a basic printed residence) and that people would then only have paid jobs to have luxuries (although it could lead to a lot of resentment between the different employment groups).

The first signs of automation are already visible, such as fewer and fewer young people having Saturday jobs as shops have less checkout staff.

Comparison of the labor market in the 1950's and now are very hard, as although in theory there was full employment in the 1950's there were less women in work.

Will rail staff be affected by the changes? Yes. Does it mean that customers will see a deterioration in the level of service? Quite possibly, but that would likely mean that the Rail Industry would have to change how it operates to simplify what it sells so that customers could see an improved service.

One way, is to link tickets to credit cards which removes the need to pick up the tickets from the station (or at least much shorter codes to collect the tickets when the cards are inserted, as why does there need to be a 16 digit code to collect tickets when the credit card has been presented?).

If season tickets were linked to a credit card then to renew any required paper ticket you could just present it to the contactless card reader on the TVM which then gives the user the option to make a few selections (i.e. duration, start date, etc.) and enter payment to renew. As such it could well be faster than using a ticket office window.

Likewise any recent journeys could be liked to the contactless card giving people the option to repeat past journeys by making a few selections (e.g. pick a past journey, travelling now/later, selecting the date/time if relevant, etc.) before making payment. By knowing what journeys the payment card has valid tickets for (such as season tickets or other tickets for use as part of a longer journey) it would be possible to split tickets and buy extension tickets (i.e. a ticket from station B to C when the passenger has a season ticket from A, the location of the ticket machine, to B) as it would be able to "ensure" that passengers have a valid ticket for any journey that they wish to make in the same way that staff do now (of course that doesn't stop people splitting tickets and using a train which doesn't stop at that station but neither can ticket office staff).

I do agree that there is often a need for more TVM's even before there's a reduction in available staff and that the TVM's need to be much smarter than they are at present (including the SWT's video ones which are due to roll out soon). However, that will come and probably at a rate much faster than ticket offices staff are reduced.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

No, the new layout can fit 2 on (I have had this), it might even fit 3....

A recent example in the new ticket design thread shows a new style ticket with larger print which just about had room for the one reservation. Whilst I know the brief I had (way back when giving briefs out was only just going out of fashion) said it's more than two for a second coupon, they do keep changing the design without any sort of warning.

....There is that. But it does slow the TVM use down, as it takes an additional 10 seconds to print.

I know each and every ten seconds adds up as more and more people 'suffer' the wait, but then, without the collection receipt, maybe some people will wait longer than ten seconds to see if anymore tickets are printed (which will also add up) and maybe stand there in front of the machine double checking every ticket just in case, and others might (will) still leave before their tickets are all printed. The latter will happen anyway of course.

 

[Haywain]

There is that. But it does slow the TVM use down, as it takes an additional 10 seconds to print.

That's a really slow machine you're using!

 

[najaB]

And they should stop issuing "collection receipts", as they are pointless.

Not for me they aren't.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Chances are in 20 years time the ...... Cut down for space saving

Very thought provoking. However I think that the social unrest this would create would probably stop any government from executing it so simply. I think unless we evolve into being less social beings people will always be wanted for a lot of jobs.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's a really slow machine you're using!

All Scheidt & Bachmann machines take 5-10 seconds to print a coupon, particularly as there is a short delay before printing the final collection receipt.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Not for me they aren't.

What purpose do they serve, then, that a message on the screen stating "All of your coupons have now printed" would not?

It is not a receipt for the financial transaction; that is issued electronically on completion of payment online. If your employer requires it, they should enter the 21st century; respectfully, companies with idiotic expenses policies that belong in the 1970s are not the railway's problem.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I know each and every ten seconds adds up as more and more people 'suffer' the wait, but then, without the collection receipt, maybe some people will wait longer than ten seconds to see if anymore tickets are printed (which will also add up) and maybe stand there in front of the machine double checking every ticket just in case, and others might (will) still leave before their tickets are all printed. The latter will happen anyway of course.

It is always sensible to check all your tickets before leaving the station. The most sensible and polite thing to do is to pick the tickets up, step to the side of the machine or back from it, and indicate to the next person in the queue that they can use it.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I think unless we evolve into being less social beings people will always be wanted for a lot of jobs.

Instead of making the widgets, people in this country are now mostly employed in selling the widgets. The problem is that this sort of employment is much less secure. Call centre jobs are some of the most fragile.

The issue is that many people are happy not to talk to people when buying a widget...unless something goes wrong in the sales process. And then you're reliant on the vendor caring, which usually only happens when the vendor has an incentive to care. It is obvious that the rail industry management, managing a natural monopoly for the most part, couldn't give a stuff about customer service as they have no commercial incentive to. Therefore they won't pay for it.

In a capitalist society full employment is not desirable- it causes wage inflation- but mass unemployment is worse. If nobody has any money they can't buy any widgets. It is that which will put a natural brake on automation.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Instead of making the widgets, people in this country are now mostly employed in selling the widgets. The problem is that this sort of employment is much less secure. Call centre jobs are some of the most fragile.

Particularly given that there is an option, in a high quality Internet based operation, to get rid of the call centre entirely and return to a number of dedicated departments where you call/email/Tweet/chat with the relevant one when you have a specific problem. I am very much in support of this, because it leads to far faster resolution of problems - and often actual resolution rather than just apologies and a voucher.

I would rather, at the same cost[1], primarily interact with a company online, but have the chance to call directly to someone who can solve my problem when I have one, than have something a bit cheaper, to be honest.

So along those lines, I'd prefer to buy my train tickets online, on my phone, from a row of twenty TVMs at MKC, or whatever, but if there's a problem I'd like to be able to go to a desk, where there is little or no queue because all the people buying returns to London have used the TVMs, and get immediate help, with the fares and TOC profits the same as they are. The people are still important, but their job is assisting people to use the technology and assisting people with an immediate, quality solution to their problem. It is in a way I suppose upskilling - those wishing to do a mundane job may be those who lose out.

[1] or interest rate paid on my money, or whatever.

 

[Closet2405]

Would a sensible way of preventing people from walking off without all of their tickets not be to have a cover over the collection tray that is locked until printing finishes?

I'm sure I've seen this at one station before (probably either Kings Cross or Waverley), but I could be making that up.

 

[causton]

Would a sensible way of preventing people from walking off without all of their tickets not be to have a cover over the collection tray that is locked until printing finishes?

I'm sure I've seen this at one station before (probably either Kings Cross or Waverley), but I could be making that up.

Yes, Virgin Trains East Coast have this.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That does have the risk of going wrong, and if I'm about to miss my train I'd like to have the option to disregard the pointless collection receipt.

 

[najaB]

It is not a receipt for the financial transaction; that is issued electronically on completion of payment online.

Since our tickets are bought on account it's a little different than it is for you. Not everyone's needs are the same.

 

[PHILIPE]

Technology is great and can be used to perform many functions, but I think that in some respects it has gone too far. Many people would like the personal touch instead of "robotic" contact. Automated telephone conversations are a fine example of this.

 

[route:oxford]

I still can't use The Key to travel into London, even though it was almost a year ago that I first used it successfully to buy a point to point ticket. Everything on posters still suggests Govia thinks the Key is just for season ticket holders. I see no evidence that they're in any rush to extend it to normal day tickets, or introduce PAYG. Yet, they tried to rush ticket office closures in less than a year.

The Key is great, and load it up ready for travel into London.

On the X90...

 

[gimmea50anyday]

The key is great for my daughter. All over the north east for maximum fare 90p per bus.

Useless in London tho...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Since our tickets are bought on account it's a little different than it is for you. Not everyone's needs are the same.

So you have to submit the collection receipt? Why? What does that bring that the information they already have about the account purchase does not?

OK, issue them only for account purchases, then. They are a complete waste of paper for most people. When I buy or collect a ticket from Bletchley's TVM, I pick it all up and walk two steps to the bin, into which any unrequested receipts are deposited. A complete waste - make them optional.

 

[causton]

So you have to submit the collection receipt? Why? What does that bring that the information they already have about the account purchase does not?

OK, issue them only for account purchases, then. They are a complete waste of paper for most people. When I buy or collect a ticket from Bletchley's TVM, I pick it all up and walk two steps to the bin, into which any unrequested receipts are deposited. A complete waste - make them optional.

The screen even says "Your receipt on demand" so make it on demand, S&B!!

But yes, we generally have a stack of them and Oyster topup card receipts left over whenever we have to open the machines and both should be made optional (noting the latter is optional on LOROL TVMs) - what a waste of ticket roll.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....It is always sensible to check all your tickets before leaving the station. The most sensible and polite thing to do is to pick the tickets up, step to the side of the machine or back from it, and indicate to the next person in the queue that they can use it.

In an ideal world everyone does that, but we do not live in an ideal world. If I had a penny for every time someone came to me with a problem with their ToD collection (wrongly booked, missing coupons, coupons that aren't actually missing, no reference number, no bank card, an m-ticket rather than a ToD, no idea which coupon is actually the ticket, never bothered to read the terms of sale, etc, etc, etc*) I wouldn't need to work anymore**.



*The list goes on and on and on.
**I exaggerate slightly, but honestly it's not much of an exaggeration.

 

[jon0844]

I find it incredibly slow (relatively speaking) to check my tickets in the new format. Which is out and return, did I select the right railcard discount...

It requires much more checking than the old style, and someone used to the tickets issued for years is going to be confused because STILL no information is being given to people about the changes, no posters in stations, no signs on TVMs with the new look.

 

[Starmill]

In an ideal world everyone does that, but we do not live in an ideal world. If I had a penny for every time someone came to me with a problem with their ToD collection (wrongly booked, missing coupons, coupons that aren't actually missing, no reference number, no bank card, an m-ticket rather than a ToD, no idea which coupon is actually the ticket, never bothered to read the terms of sale, etc, etc, etc*) I wouldn't need to work anymore**.



*The list goes on and on and on.
**I exaggerate slightly, but honestly it's not much of an exaggeration.

If you blame your customers for the problems they have on a regular basis in the way this implies, frankly I'm surprised you are still working.

 

[causton]

If you blame your customers for the problems they have on a regular basis in the way this implies, frankly I'm surprised you are still working.

I don't think you should take that comment as literally as you have. Without being served by him (or me, as I would say almost exactly the same) you have no proof that this affects how we serve our customers.

Did he say they were all the customer's fault? No. Sometimes it can be the website's fault, or the TVM's fault, or... etc.

 

[Robertj21a]

In an ideal world everyone does that, but we do not live in an ideal world. If I had a penny for every time someone came to me with a problem with their ToD collection (wrongly booked, missing coupons, coupons that aren't actually missing, no reference number, no bank card, an m-ticket rather than a ToD, no idea which coupon is actually the ticket, never bothered to read the terms of sale, etc, etc, etc*) I wouldn't need to work anymore**.



*The list goes on and on and on.
**I exaggerate slightly, but honestly it's not much of an exaggeration.

Sounds to me very much like the systems need a complete overhaul to make them far more user-friendly.

 

[philthetube]

Two very different issues I see with ticket office closures as described here,

Presumably staff working on the platforms will not be able to take cash, and , if the underground is anything to go by there will be large numbers of people who are unable to buy tickets for their journeys, because they don't fit the system

All transactions over a period need to be scanned to see how many machines are not able to cope with.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

If you blame your customers for the problems they have on a regular basis in the way this implies, frankly I'm surprised you are still working.

By "...in the way this implies....", do you actually mean "....in the way I infer....".

I can accept people make mistakes and errors, I know I make some, I can accept the "blame" for some of these mistakes and errors may not be the "customers" fault, or at least not entirely. My post was not there to point fingers at anyone, it was to show that the world is not perfect and the system not infallible. I'm sure your misunderstanding was in some way my fault (because it clearly can't be yours), but please be aware that I don't hold this against you in anyway, in fact I'm not even blaming you for it. I sincerely hope that's cleared everything up.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Sounds to me very much like the systems need a complete overhaul to make them far more user-friendly.

It could be improved, that is for certain, but some of the issues are caused by other things, differing ticket designs for example.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sounds to me very much like the systems need a complete overhaul to make them far more user-friendly.

The limiting factor is the credit card sized ticket. Of course there is no leaving that now because of all the barrier infrastructure, but I think we might have done better to go with ATB size like most other European railways, then there's more room for information.

FWIW, DB now print their ticket office ATB tickets using normal A4 laser printers with a tear-off section with the ticket on it. But then as they don't have barriers they don't need a magstripe (which is in any case probably better replaced by a barcode).

 

[Starmill]

By "...in the way this implies....", do you actually mean "....in the way I infer....".

Not especially. Language about whether or not customers "could be bothered" to do something is counter-productive and likey to create problems. You frequently express a fairly contemptuous tone about the role too, particularly with respect to management.

 

[Lemmy99uk]

The limiting factor is the credit card sized ticket. Of course there is no leaving that now because of all the barrier infrastructure, but I think we might have done better to go with ATB size like most other European railways, then there's more room for information.

FWIW, DB now print their ticket office ATB tickets using normal A4 laser printers with a tear-off section with the ticket on it. But then as they don't have barriers they don't need a magstripe (which is in any case probably better replaced by a barcode).

The AVANTIX replacement scheduled for Northern this year will not use credit card type tickets.

They will be tear off paper tickets and barriers are being upgraded to incorporate scanners.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Could we see movement there, then? Could ticket offices follow DB and print on A4 using standard laser printers, with all the information the passenger needs plus a barcode on a full A4 sheet?