WAG Express discussion

[jones_bangor]

Does that refer only to First or is standard also very quiet in the mornings, esspecially north of Shrewsbury? If it does also apply to standard, perhaps several LHCS sets should just replace franchise workings (Manchester - Swansea/Carmarthen and Manchester - Llandudno trains), with two coming off franchise workings towards the end of the day to operate open-access 16:15-16:30ish express departures from both Cardiff/Swansea and Holyhead. In the morning, if the loadings south of Shrewsbury on WAG1 at the moment are worthwhile and you can get a set into Wrexham General's bay platforms (the old WSMR depot) overnight it could run a morning express from there to Cardiff/Swansea, instead of current WAG 1 from Holyhead.

Hopefully the LHCS can take over enough workings to allow all the busiest remaining 2-car 175 services to be upped to 3-car and improved service frequencies elsewhere using the 2-car 175s freed up or 158s displaced by those 175s.

I think it was referring to First Class.

 

[IanXC]

The service on this route is not good - the ideal train on this route would be a 180 (ok, ok, it ain't happening!!), but failing that a couple of the refurbished 158s running as a 4-car would at least add capacity - perhaps the 175s could be redeployed on Holyhead - Birmingham?

If 180s are not cleared for the approaches to Birmingham New Street are 175s?

 

[Penmorfa]

If 180s are not cleared for the approaches to Birmingham New Street are 175s?

Yes, they work in on a regular basis. Probably no one has asked for 180's to be cleared, so it's just a matter of paperwork

 

[PHILIPE]

175s have booked working on Sundays to Birmingham New St and were far more prevalent in the past before the Holyhead and the Xambrian services and Diagrams were intermixed as they can't go to Aberysteyth

 

[tbtc]

Yes, they work in on a regular basis. Probably no one has asked for 180's to be cleared, so it's just a matter of paperwork

Since XC haven't apparently tried to get 180s for XC (125mph five coach DMUs, perfect for a franchise which desperately needs them) I'd be surprised to learn that 180s *did* fit okay through the tunnels.

I'm not saying they can/can't fit, just that it seems odd that XC haven't tried to grab some.

180s would be a waste on the ATW services though, due to the slow nature of Welsh services.

 

[furryfeet]

180s would be a waste on the ATW services though, due to the slow nature of Welsh services.

Why such a waste, seeing as there is serious overcrowding on the routes between Manchester and Holyhead and
Manchester and Cardiff ?

I presume that the access charges will not be much more than the class 175units that are in use now and if they are a similar design then the driver conversion training should be pretty simple as well.

Is there some technical reason as to why the 180s cannot be used for these services ?

 

[Michael.Y]

Why such a waste, seeing as there is serious overcrowding on the routes between Manchester and Holyhead and
Manchester and Cardiff ?

I presume that the access charges will not be much more than the class 175units that are in use now and if they are a similar design then the driver conversion training should be pretty simple as well.

Is there some technical reason as to why the 180s cannot be used for these services ?

I know of no PRACTICAL (platforms and such) reason; I'd love a 4-car set to work a Holyhead-Cardiff ferry train one day; would make things a hell of a lot easier for me and my trolley. Plus I imagine (and seem to distantly recall) the Adelantes have quite a nice ride too.

As I've said before, the 175s are getting a bit tatty round the edges, not to mention the fact their interior is hideously mismatched (green moquette, pink highlights, purple doors -- a throwback to when they were First trains) and if the 158s weren't being refurbed at the moment, I'd prioritise them for refurbishment and/or replacement.

 

[jones_bangor]

I know of no PRACTICAL (platforms and such) reason; I'd love a 4-car set to work a Holyhead-Cardiff ferry train one day; would make things a hell of a lot easier for me and my trolley. Plus I imagine (and seem to distantly recall) the Adelantes have quite a nice ride too.

As I've said before, the 175s are getting a bit tatty round the edges, not to mention the fact their interior is hideously mismatched (green moquette, pink highlights, purple doors -- a throwback to when they were First trains) and if the 158s weren't being refurbed at the moment, I'd prioritise them for refurbishment and/or replacement.

The Adelantes are 5 - car sets, but I agree with earlier posts that they would be overkill on routes where they'll rarely hit 100, never mind 125.....

The refurbished 175s are less garish, much less purple!

It's a shame 175s weren't produced as 3 and 4 car sets (with hindsight!).

 

[Michael.Y]

It's a shame 175s weren't produced as 3 and 4 car sets (with hindsight!).

175/1s (175101-175116) are 3-car sets - there are 16 of them, as opposed to 11 175/0 (175001-175011) 2-car sets.

Here's a (probably stupid) idea -- is there any way to redistribute the coaches so that you can form a 4-car 175 with two coach Bs? Or will that present wiring/stablilty problems I'm not aware of?

 

[IanXC]

Yes, they work in on a regular basis. Probably no one has asked for 180's to be cleared, so it's just a matter of paperwork

Since XC haven't apparently tried to get 180s for XC (125mph five coach DMUs, perfect for a franchise which desperately needs them) I'd be surprised to learn that 180s *did* fit okay through the tunnels.

I'm not saying they can/can't fit, just that it seems odd that XC haven't tried to grab some.

180s would be a waste on the ATW services though, due to the slow nature of Welsh services.

I'm sure we've had this out before and there is a tunnel on the approach to New Street for which 180s cannot be cleared - were Virgin not proposing to use 2x 180 before the Pretendolino was put together?

I agree that the fact XC have not attempted to get hold of them suggests they cannot be cleared.

 

[merlodlliw]

175s have booked working on Sundays to Birmingham New St and were far more prevalent in the past before the Holyhead and the Xambrian services and Diagrams were intermixed as they can't go to Aberysteyth

With all respect 175s run to Birmingham every day.

Bob
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Something that has come up on another topic:


Does that refer only to First or is standard also very quiet in the mornings, esspecially north of Shrewsbury? If it does also apply to standard, perhaps several LHCS sets should just replace franchise workings (Manchester - Swansea/Carmarthen and Manchester - Llandudno trains), with two coming off franchise workings towards the end of the day to operate open-access 16:15-16:30ish express departures from both Cardiff/Swansea and Holyhead. In the morning, if the loadings south of Shrewsbury on WAG1 at the moment are worthwhile and you can get a set into Wrexham General's bay platforms (the old WSMR depot) overnight it could run a morning express from there to Cardiff/Swansea, instead of current WAG 1 from Holyhead.

Hopefully the LHCS can take over enough workings to allow all the busiest remaining 2-car 175 services to be upped to 3-car and improved service frequencies elsewhere using the 2-car 175s freed up or 158s displaced by those 175s.

ATW wont start anything that does not commence or runs via the Chester hub.

 

[AlterEgo]

With all respect 175s run to Birmingham every day.

On which services?

I've never seen one.

 

[merlodlliw]

On which services?

I've never seen one.

1921 Holyhead/Chester/Stafford/Wolves/Birmingham & return every day(Sat Ex) same route .

Arrives back in Holyhead around 0220

 

[tbtc]

Why such a waste, seeing as there is serious overcrowding on the routes between Manchester and Holyhead and
Manchester and Cardiff ?

I presume that the access charges will not be much more than the class 175units that are in use now and if they are a similar design then the driver conversion training should be pretty simple as well.

Is there some technical reason as to why the 180s cannot be used for these services ?

Five coach 125mph units? Considering that 158s are 90mph, and you get 75mph 150s filling in from time to time, a 180 would be overkill.

Better to wait for the Scotrail EGIP electrification cascade, which will probably free up a few 158s that can be used to double up the main ATW Manchester services.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

1921 Holyhead/Chester/Stafford/Wolves/Birmingham & return every day(Sat Ex) same route .
Arrives back in Holyhead around 0220

Unless it has changed, the 1921 HHD-BHM runs via Shrewsbury and the 2255 back via Stafford.
There is an 0422 Chester-New St via Stafford, but I think this a 158.

Virgin of course run 0530 BHM-HHD and 2020 BNG-BHM via Stafford.
Thus you have the unfortunate combination of 2 evening trains heading for New St up the coast from Bangor only 15 minutes apart to Chester, where they go their different ways (VT gaining an hour and arriving 40 mins earlier).
I know it's all about the diagramming, but one of these coast trains is unnecessary.

 

[merlodlliw]

Unless it has changed, the 1921 HHD-BHM runs via Shrewsbury and the 2255 back via Stafford.
There is an 0422 Chester-New St via Stafford, but I think this a 158.

Virgin of course run 0530 BHM-HHD and 2020 BNG-BHM via Stafford.
Thus you have the unfortunate combination of 2 evening trains heading for New St up the coast from Bangor only 15 minutes apart to Chester, where they go their different ways (VT gaining an hour and arriving 40 mins earlier).
I know it's all about the diagramming, but one of these coast trains is unnecessary.

Yes you are correct the 1921 175 runs via Wrexham, comes back via Stafford,it used to run Holyhead/Stafford previous, must check the new timetables first. Not sure Wether the dawn patrol via Stafford from Chester garage is a 158 into Birmingham at 0601,second thoughts it probably is a four car unit 158 to keep Gareth happy with a split at Shrewsbury on the down.
Up to our ears in snow this morning, came down heavy all night.

Bob

 

[Gareth Marston]

Yes you are correct the 1921 175 runs via Wrexham, comes back via Stafford,it used to run Holyhead/Stafford previous, must check the new timetables first. Not sure Wether the dawn patrol via Stafford from Chester garage is a 158 into Birmingham at 0601,second thoughts it probably is a four car unit 158 to keep Gareth happy with a split at Shrewsbury on the down.
Up to our ears in snow this morning, came down heavy all night.

Bob

Its called Bwlchgwyn for a reason!

The 0422 off Chester to New St via Stafford then does the 0624 New St to Aberystwyth - its a 2 car 158. Then the 0930 Aberystwyth to BHM INTL.

 

[HSTEd]

The Cl57 hauled service consists of one locomotive and four carriages correct?

Do ATW have Cl57s on any other services? Its just that Wiki seems to list them as having four in service and a total of 27 hauled coaches (22 Mk2 and 5 Mk3)

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

The Cl57 hauled service consists of one locomotive and four carriages correct?

Do ATW have Cl57s on any other services? Its just that Wiki seems to list them as having four in service and a total of 27 hauled coaches (22 Mk2 and 5 Mk3)

Correct - occasional use on 'Ruggex' specials from Holyhead to Cardiff on days when Internetional Rugby is played at the Millenium Stadium

 

[Gareth Marston]

The Cl57 hauled service consists of one locomotive and four carriages correct?

Do ATW have Cl57s on any other services? Its just that Wiki seems to list them as having four in service and a total of 27 hauled coaches (22 Mk2 and 5 Mk3)

Arriva Head Office sacked the then ATW MD Graham Bunker for purchasing the MK2's - he wanted to run services with them, Arriva wanted more profits and they have sat unused since 05. The deal that sees 3 of them used a day is advantageous financially to Arriva. To get the others used phone up Penarth House and say you have a large wad of cash.

 

[HSTfan!!!]

Five coach 125mph units? Considering that 158s are 90mph, and you get 75mph 150s filling in from time to time, a 180 would be overkill.

Better to wait for the Scotrail EGIP electrification cascade, which will probably free up a few 158s that can be used to double up the main ATW Manchester services.

why does top speed of a unit come into it? Its the capacity that's required, and it's getting seriously overcrowded in recent months. Something has to be done and I've been saying the 180's are the answer for ages. Taking into consideration that 158's only just about manage to keep up with the timetable, and the 150's are unable to keep up full stop.

 

[TDK]

why does top speed of a unit come into it? Its the capacity that's required, and it's getting seriously overcrowded in recent months. Something has to be done and I've been saying the 180's are the answer for ages. Taking into consideration that 158's only just about manage to keep up with the timetable, and the 150's are unable to keep up full stop.

When the 180's were freed up a few years back ATW refused them on cost

 

[HSTfan!!!]

When the 180's were freed up a few years back ATW refused them on cost

that's a real shame, they'd be a fantastic boost to capacity.

 

[merlodlliw]

Its called Bwlchgwyn for a reason!

The 0422 off Chester to New St via Stafford then does the 0624 New St to Aberystwyth - its a 2 car 158. Then the 0930 Aberystwyth to BHM INTL.

Indeed and one of the reasons is,if it snows, it will snow in Bwlchgwyn,at 1741 hours its still on the ground,for our friends in England Bwlchgwyn means
"White Pass"

And back to rail, Gareth you are the expert on 158s(awful trains,my opinion only)
so its a two car.

Bob
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Arriva Head Office sacked the then ATW MD Graham Bunker for purchasing the MK2's - he wanted to run services with them, Arriva wanted more profits and they have sat unused since 05. The deal that sees 3 of them used a day is advantageous financially to Arriva. To get the others used phone up Penarth House and say you have a large wad of cash.

I liked Graham Bunker, met him several times, He was if I am correct Mr Clockface for ATW, when he was in Wrexham talking to us, he boasted 17% extra Sunday services, I told him ATW had decided to kill of the 2204 Sunday Chester to Wrexham,(stock transferred to later Bidston trains paid for by Wrexham Council)always packed with College re-turners to Glyndwr thus making the last up train into Wrexham at 2130, and losing connections.
Within a week it returned & still runs full , has for the Mark2s, they are making ATW a few £K out of the £3.5millions on driver training for WAG 67s

 

[emoaconr]

I was on a 175 that was going to Birmingham Intl last Sunday. I didn't think the 175 fleet did the HHD-BHM service anymore?
It was formed from a split in Chester, mind.

 

[tbtc]

why does top speed of a unit come into it? Its the capacity that's required, and it's getting seriously overcrowded in recent months. Something has to be done and I've been saying the 180's are the answer for ages. Taking into consideration that 158's only just about manage to keep up with the timetable, and the 150's are unable to keep up full stop.

They are completely over specced for the ATW services. Much better to try to get some more 158s (which can work in multiple with existing units)

 

[HSTEd]

There aren't enough 158s to go around, you won't find any more for ATW.

 

[anthony263]

There aren't enough 158s to go around, you won't find any more for ATW.

Its a pity the line from Eastleigh/Southampton to Salisbury isn't electrified as that should release at least 5 class 158's from SWT which could be used by other operator's.

 

[Rhydgaled]

The Cl57 hauled service consists of one locomotive and four carriages correct?

Do ATW have Cl57s on any other services? Its just that Wiki seems to list them as having four in service and a total of 27 hauled coaches (22 Mk2 and 5 Mk3)

There are four class 57s in ATW colours (two in full livery, two in plain dark blue). When the express started, it was run with top&tail 57s so 2 in service 2 spare. According to the junction's fleet lists, there are 18 mark 2s with Arriva:

• 2x Mark 2e TSO
• 11x Mark 2f TSO
• 2x Mark 2e BSO
• 3x Mark 2f BSO

Of these, I think I've seen a photo of 6 of them on a Rugby extra train in WAG express livery (so one spare rake), the others I believe are completly unused. Of the more knowlagable out there, does anyone know if the junction's information is correct or if there are really 22 ATW mrk2s as Wikipedia claims? 5 mrk3s has to be incorrect information, doesn't it?

When the 180's were freed up a few years back ATW refused them on cost

There aren't enough 158s to go around, you won't find any more for ATW.

No 158s or 180s, or any other DMUs for that matter, going spare from other franchises at the moment. As discussed above however, ATW has no need of 180s as they have several mark2s in storeage they just need to be pursuaded to use them. With several mark 2 DBSOs off-lease, it should in theroy be possible to solve most of ATW's capacity problems but the locos would need work (fitting with a TDM system like that found in class 90 and 91 locomotives) to be able to work with the DBSOs. Again according to the junction, the pool code for the ATW mark 2s is 'Arriva Trains Wales Special Events Stock', if they would only make use of their full mark2s WHENEVER there is a special event that effects ATW services it'd be a step in the right direction. Sadly, apart from the odd un-advertised rugby train from north Wales using the 6 WAG express liveried coaches there's nothing. No extra capacity to Carmarthen/Swansea/Llanelli from rugby matches in Cardiff and nothing for the festival near Pembrey & Burry Port which resulted in loads of passengers being turned away from the woefully insufficent 2-car 175 I happened to be on once either.

 

[swt_passenger]

Its a pity the line from Eastleigh/Southampton to Salisbury isn't electrified as that should release at least 5 class 158's from SWT which could be used by other operator's.

Only 3 units are used on that service.