Wag express to be withdrawn?

[merlodlliw]

Still there in the Dec 10 timetable....the path for the planned second one is being worked up too.

Good afternoon planner, suppose it will be in the Dec 10th, as are most services
we will have to see if the rumours come true.
As for 2nd coming, I will be amazed if the dosh is still available, but then if its not your own money to throw away, who knows.

Below should give an answer from the top


Eleanor Burnham AM
Welsh Liberal Democrat
Please reply to my Cardiff Office


Mr Ieuan Wyn Jones AM
Minister for Economy and Transport
National Assembly for Wales
Cardiff Bay
CARDIFF
CF99 1NA
4th August 2010


Annwyl Ieuan Wyn,

Re: Holyhead-Cardiff “WAG Express” Funding

It has been brought to my attention that there is the possibility that Welsh Assembly Government funding for the so-called “WAG Express” service between Holyhead and Cardiff is to be withdrawn from December this year.

I am also informed that the service would consequently revert to a “175”.

As a regular rail user between North and South Wales, and being ever-vigilant on ensuring that the people of Wales receive the best value, I would appreciate your clarification on the length of time for which funding will continue to be made available for the current premier service and a definitive answer on the possible withdrawal of funding from the end of this year.

I look forward to your response.

Cofion cynnes,

 

[Gareth Marston]

I can't see how it will "revert to 175 haulage" when it was never on the graph anyway, I've seen enough 150's pop up on Cdf to Holyhead diagrams to know that there aren't enough 175s to go round anyway and with a refurb programme taking units both 158 & 175's out of the diagrams its a no brainer that this is serious option for Dec 10.

I'll stick money on the rumor starting as Chester-Crewe-Shrewsbury will be blockaded at some point in early 11 and for a week it will run via Wrexham with a 175 diagrammed as it can't reverse at Chester?

Far better for WAG to cancel all its north to south bypass building programme and spend the money saved on some budget savings plus some additional rolling stock for all Wales.

 

[The Planner]

What do you mean that it was "never on the graph" ??

 

[Proud Salopian]

apart from Crewe

and Shrewsbury.. and Chester..

 

[rail-britain]

The service came about as it was seen as better value for money than a direct air service
The subsidy amount has been kept a closely guarded secret, and as far as I am aware noone has successfully obtained this from a FOI request

However, there have been complaints that the service "is not fast enough", which in turn is affecting passenger usage numbers

The service may well be dumped in favour of comparing it to an air service

 

[TDK]

The service came about as it was seen as better value for money than a direct air service
The subsidy amount has been kept a closely guarded secret, and as far as I am aware noone has successfully obtained this from a FOI request

However, there have been complaints that the service "is not fast enough", which in turn is affecting passenger usage numbers

The service may well be dumped in favour of comparing it to an air service

It is not that a good secret as it is common knowledge how much the subsidy is. It was set up originally for WAG members to travel from Bangor and other North Wales towns to Cardiff, the air route was always going to remain and the 2 were not linked ASFAIK. The people of Wales who are actually aware of this service are notimpressed as they think it is a waste of money, myself included, the WAG members used to travel on an ATW service and this I know as fact as I used to work for them, they did complain that the ATW service was too slow but all they had to do was do a deal with ATW to make one of their HHD - CDF services an express stopping only where they want and this would have cost hell of a lot less.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I can't see how it will "revert to 175 haulage" when it was never on the graph anyway, I've seen enough 150's pop up on Cdf to Holyhead diagrams to know that there aren't enough 175s to go round anyway and with a refurb programme taking units both 158 & 175's out of the diagrams its a no brainer that this is serious option for Dec 10.

I'll stick money on the rumor starting as Chester-Crewe-Shrewsbury will be blockaded at some point in early 11 and for a week it will run via Wrexham with a 175 diagrammed as it can't reverse at Chester?

Far better for WAG to cancel all its north to south bypass building programme and spend the money saved on some budget savings plus some additional rolling stock for all Wales.

The route between Chestr and Wrexham is also to be blocked for 9 weeks I believe for the line improvement also, this has not been confirmed but aparently the money is in the pot waiting. Arriva have already arranged a bus timetable from Wrexham to Chester running I think 2 per hour to replace the train service.

It is possible for the WAG express to run via Wrexham, all ATW need are 2 57's or to run one round at Chester.

 

[TheWalrus]

I must admit I have more issues with the air service than the extra train. I would hope that the planes get removed before the trains are touched.

Yes! Remove the plane, make the WAG express more viable, cut subsidies and invest in rail infrastructure between North and South Wales and a faster train to operate a daily fast service from Holyhead-Cardiff. That's what I'd do in a nutshell

 

[TDK]

Yes! Remove the plane, make the WAG express more viable, cut subsidies and invest in rail infrastructure between North and South Wales and a faster train to operate a daily fast service from Holyhead-Cardiff. That's what I'd do in a nutshell

I think the WAG should take a leaf out of Westminsters book, aparently the MP's now have to use public transport instead of taxi's and cars to get to Parlaiment, why can't the WAG North Wales members use a normal ATW service? If they are not happy with ATW's current service sort ATW out!

 

[asylumxl]

it's seems quite evident the WAG doesn't actually care what the people they're representing actually think.

 

[90019]

it's seems quite evident the WAG doesn't actually care what the people they're representing actually think.

They're politicians, what did you expect?

 

[asylumxl]

They're politicians, what did you expect?

Free cookies and milk.

 

[merlodlliw]

The service came about as it was seen as better value for money than a direct air service
The subsidy amount has been kept a closely guarded secret, and as far as I am aware noone has successfully obtained this from a FOI request

However, there have been complaints that the service "is not fast enough", which in turn is affecting passenger usage numbers

The service may well be dumped in favour of comparing it to an air service

The only figures The Minister wont release are the figures for the Air Link,and WAG committee on finances about to demand the costings under FOI, a farce when
the Committee is made up of elected A,Ms. and the Minister ignoring its requests.

The rail subsidy for The Wag Express was indeed released by the Minister after a motion had been put down for discussion in the Senedd, which he knew would result in outcry, that figure was £7400 a day taxpayer subsidy for the once a day service. The motion was due to the |Minister refusing to respond to written questions and the Welsh media about to use the FOI act.

When my local A.M gets a response I will put it up (thread 31)

 

[tbtc]

The rail subsidy for The Wag Express was indeed released by the Minister after a motion had been put down for discussion in the Senedd, which he knew would result in outcry, that figure was £7400 a day taxpayer subsidy for the once a day service

Is that for the cost of running the train (hiring the stock, staffing, running costs etc), as presumably it makes a few quid from the passengers - so does the £7,400 refer to the net cost of the service?

 

[4SRKT]

Is that for the cost of running the train (hiring the stock, staffing, running costs etc), as presumably it makes a few quid from the passengers - so does the £7,400 refer to the net cost of the service?

It's got to be difficult to assign any revenue gained from tickets on this train as 'new' revenue, i.e. passengers who would not otherwise have occupied empty seats on the existing (pretty good) service between North and South Wales. The revenue from first class and the catering service can probably justifiably be accounted for in this way, but any second class passengers (except 57 bashers that is) using this service can probably be said to be coincidental.

 

[tbtc]

It's got to be difficult to assign any revenue gained from tickets on this train as 'new' revenue, i.e. passengers who would not otherwise have occupied empty seats on the existing (pretty good) service between North and South Wales. The revenue from first class and the catering service can probably justifiably be accounted for in this way, but any second class passengers (except 57 bashers that is) using this service can probably be said to be coincidental.

Well, it fills a gap in the (otherwise) two-hourly service, so it must be adding *some* new passengers?

However, I imagine that the additional passengers are mainly going to be for journeys between North Wales and Chester/ Crewe (or similar short distances around Cardiff), rather than any Holyhead - Cardiff "end to end" trade which the WAG are trying to artificially engineer).

 

[4SRKT]

Well, it fills a gap in the (otherwise) two-hourly service, so it must be adding *some* new passengers?

However, I imagine that the additional passengers are mainly going to be for journeys between North Wales and Chester/ Crewe (or similar short distances around Cardiff), rather than any Holyhead - Cardiff "end to end" trade which the WAG are trying to artificially engineer).

Maybe some new passengers, but not £7,400 worth! Probably not even £74 worth. As you say, there is absolutely no need for another Holyhead > Chester > Crewe working at the time it runs, as part of a flight of 5 trains between 04:25 and 05:51. There are at least hourly services over every section of both routes between Holyhead and Cardiff, so is an additional service needed to provide extra marginal journey opportunities? Of course not.

However, as I said, first class and catering seemed to be doing well. If this is mainly AMs and other dignatories travelling and claiming back on expenses, the true daily cost to the taxpayer could well be more still!

OTOH, if the WAG told Arriva to hire in tractors instead of the 'snatchers, they could see revenue double as every basher in the whole of the UK made his weary way to Holyhead! Would also help struggling hoteliers in that benighted town.

 

[merlodlliw]

Is that for the cost of running the train (hiring the stock, staffing, running costs etc), as presumably it makes a few quid from the passengers - so does the £7,400 refer to the net cost of the service?

Nothing more than the taxpayer subsidy of £192400 a year was given, the
£7400 a day was soon worked out by the press, no idea of the true cost or other disguised monies thrown at this service, The Minister of Wales Rail will not disclose for what he calls confidential business reasons anything on the Air service taxpayers subsidy.

M

 

[Peter Mugridge]

If it's £7400 a day then that's £3700 per train isn't it, given that there is one each way?

 

[37401]

I can't see how it will "revert to 175 haulage"

I cant either, they wouldnt knowingly put out a 175 on only one engine to haul the other ones, bad idea with units really

 

[TDK]

If it's £7400 a day then that's £3700 per train isn't it, given that there is one each way?

The £7400 is what is paid to ATW to run the service, when you take the hiring of locos, maintenance package, fuel, staff, track access fees there will not be much left, I would think ATW made a mistake running this at this price and are running it at a loss or only breaking even, I do not know the length of contact that the WAG has with ATW but I would say that when it comes up for renewal there will be further discussions, of course ATW need to keep the WAG happy as this is where they get a lot of funding from.

 

[tbtc]

Maybe some new passengers, but not £7,400 worth! Probably not even £74 worth. As you say, there is absolutely no need for another Holyhead > Chester > Crewe working at the time it runs, as part of a flight of 5 trains between 04:25 and 05:51. There are at least hourly services over every section of both routes between Holyhead and Cardiff, so is an additional service needed to provide extra marginal journey opportunities? Of course not

I agree that it's not a good use of resources, but I've consistantly argued that the bi-hourly Holyhead - Cardiff trains are a waste, considering there is more demand to link these areas to Manchester/ Liverpool/ WCML than to each other. The old Wales & West franchise ran one train a day from Holyhead to Cardiff, and the rest of the time there were trains like Holyhead - Manchester (ran by North Western) and Cardiff - Liverpool. However, politicians are trying to create an artificial demand.

I'm not trying to antagonise, but take a look around Llandudno/ Bangor etc - do you see more people in Manchester United/ Liverpool shirts or in Cardiff/ Swansea shirts? Same with the accents.

 

[Greenback]

It may be doomed to failure, but part of the idea of the through trains was to try and increase the sense of Wales as a nation by breaking down some of the transport barriers that exist between the north and south.

I do believe that even though the aim is laudable, it would have been better to put the Assembly in Aberystwyth and reinstate the railway between Carmarthen and Aber.

 

[4SRKT]

It may be doomed to failure, but part of the idea of the through trains was to try and increase the sense of Wales as a nation by breaking down some of the transport barriers that exist between the north and south.

I do believe that even though the aim is laudable, it would have been better to put the Assembly in Aberystwyth and reinstate the railway between Carmarthen and Aber.

Or put it in Shrewsbury and redesignate the grounds of the building as a part of Wales

 

[merlodlliw]

I agree that it's not a good use of resources, but I've consistantly argued that the bi-hourly Holyhead - Cardiff trains are a waste, considering there is more demand to link these areas to Manchester/ Liverpool/ WCML than to each other. The old Wales & West franchise ran one train a day from Holyhead to Cardiff, and the rest of the time there were trains like Holyhead - Manchester (ran by North Western) and Cardiff - Liverpool. However, politicians are trying to create an artificial demand.

I'm not trying to antagonise, but take a look around Llandudno/ Bangor etc - do you see more people in Manchester United/ Liverpool shirts or in Cardiff/ Swansea shirts? Same with the accents.

Of course you are absolutely correct, for myself I have no allegiance with Cardiff other than attending meetings,which I am pleased to say are now fewer. It is my estimate the majority in North Wales have more in Common with the North West, but devolving power to Cardiff, means like it or not we have to accept this, and it will get worse,
At enormousness coast, sub areas have been built, at Junction,Aber & West Wales for the WAG to supposed have a local presence.

I recall the old Wales & West franchise train, it was run for a year on £1m subsidy, it was Cardiff to Holyhead & Return, like Gerald few used it.It was a 2 coach 158.
The journey was over 6 hours & calling at Llandudno Junction 2 times to pick up/set down each journey(4 in total), it also called at every station in North Wales. This was supposed to bring North & South together.

 

[Greenback]

Of course you are absolutely correct, for myself I have no allegiance with Cardiff other than attending meetings,which I am pleased to say are now fewer. It is my estimate the majority in North Wales have more in Common with the North West, but devolving power to Cardiff, means like it or not we have to accept this, and it will get worse,
At enormousness coast, sub areas have been built, at Junction,Aber & West Wales for the WAG to supposed have a local presence.

I recall the old Wales & West franchise train, it was run for a year on £1m subsidy, it was Cardiff to Holyhead & Return, like Gerald few used it.It was a 2 coach 158.
The journey was over 6 hours & calling at Llandudno Junction 2 times to pick up/set down each journey(4 in total), it also called at every station in North Wales. This was supposed to bring North & South together.

I don;t disagree, but I think there's a bit more to the new locations in North and Mid Wales than just bringing Wales together. There has been a lot of criticism, justified in my view, that too much was going to Cardiff.

The same argument has been levied at London, and the UK government had a policy for over thirty years of moving civil service departments out of the south east and into various regions where heavy industyr was in decline, eg DVLA in Swansea, DSS in Newcastle, Premium Bonds to Lytham, Girobank to Bootle.

Ireland also moved some of it's governemnt departments and civil service functions out of Dublin for economic reasons.

The Assembly seem keen to provide other areas with good public sector jobs, although whether this is sustainable in light of the budget cuts must be doubtful.

 

[merlodlliw]

I don;t disagree, but I think there's a bit more to the new locations in North and Mid Wales than just bringing Wales together. There has been a lot of criticism, justified in my view, that too much was going to Cardiff.

The same argument has been levied at London, and the UK government had a policy for over thirty years of moving civil service departments out of the south east and into various regions where heavy industyr was in decline, eg DVLA in Swansea, DSS in Newcastle, Premium Bonds to Lytham, Girobank to Bootle.

Ireland also moved some of it's governemnt departments and civil service functions out of Dublin for economic reasons.

The Assembly seem keen to provide other areas with good public sector jobs, although whether this is sustainable in light of the budget cuts must be doubtful.

Well put my green friend, too much was going to Cardiff, we here in the North
felt isolated, however as you said is it sustainable.
Strange as it may seem.Runcorn East station ten miles from Manchester is managed from Cardiff 170 miles away., where will it end.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I think someones already made the point about uniting north and south wales, we have to remember that all the internal north to south routes were closed in 60's & 70's. However 9 (with 10 in planning phase) through trains a day are overkill, it would be better to create 4/5 a day genuinely express services. The current 2hrly Cdf to Holyhead trains are virtually an all stops service north of Shrewsbury and the units have 2 hrs down time in Cdf - a lot of precious resource is invested in the diagrams at a time of overcrowding. 150's often appear and can keep time due to ATW's slack scheduling to achieve their impressive sounding ppm stats, theres easily 30 mins to be saved more when Wrexham to Saltney is redoubled. The MK2's & 57 could make more than 1 run especially with 2 sets and the off peak trains be 175's. The saved 158's & 175's could be redeployed.

 

[The Planner]

30 ?? you'll be lucky.

 

[route:oxford]

I think someones already made the point about uniting north and south wales, we have to remember that all the internal north to south routes were closed in 60's & 70's.

Which, if any, would be the most useful north-south route to re-open?

 

[4SRKT]

Which, if any, would be the most useful north-south route to re-open?

I doubt any would be quicker than the North & West route.