Wales & Borders Franchise Consultation

[DenmarkRail]

Moving focus for a better GW bid maybe?

 

[ChooChooChloe]

As an occasional user of ATW in Cheshire/North Wales, ATW trains are almost always late, don't have enough carriages and are horrendously overcrowded.

 

[OxtedSignaller]

Govia isnt as bad as ATW?

Stop the world, I and every other sane person wants to get off.

I'd beg to differ I'd be ecstatic if Arriva won the next TSGN franchise over Govia

 

[HH]

A letter from Tom Joyner MD ATW.

Ah, the living proof that #2 rises to the top. Good news for Wales I would say.

 

[Llanigraham]

A few things:

Everyone celebrating the demise of ATW are either wearing whatever the opposite of rose-tinted glasses are, have no knowledge of ATW, are lazily basing their opinion on Wales Online, or, given the forum this is less likely, have no knowledge of franchising/at least ATW.

Are they perfect? Nope. Would any company have been? Nope. Irrespective of who signed the franchise agreement in 2003, the situation would be the same/worse.

@craigybagel is right - less choice for the WG means less likelihood of any real change. It's lazy, easy, and frankly shows a lack of knowledge of the ATW franchise, to simply celebrate this news.

Quite!
Unfortunately there are a group of members here who will find any excuse to knock ATW, often based on a few journeys and not from living in Wales and using them regularly.

 

[Llanigraham]

Dirty trains/buses, failure to complete repairs other than those required to make the train go etc. Very similar to Central Trains if anyone remembers them.

The state of buses is irrelevant!
Repairs are completed as soon as is possible/practical.

 

[JetStream]

As an occasional user of ATW in Cheshire/North Wales, ATW trains are almost always late, don't have enough carriages and are horrendously overcrowded.

I'll disagree with the lateness, and would point out it costs millions for just one new train - as for overcrowded, should trains leave more people behind?

 

[Llanigraham]

Did you ever use Arriva buses in MK? They are appallingly bad. They do seem to have got some new buses of late, but it won't be long before the complete lack of maintenance ("does it go? That'll do.") will result in bits hanging off those, too.

As I said, Stagecoach would never tolerate it.

When I've used ATW I've found it to be the same. Quality refurb jobs left to rack and ruin over time.

And that is the passenger's problem because?

Again, buses are irrelevant, but you seem to be using that in your continual "rant" against anything Arriva.
And by your own admission your use of ATW is minimal but you are very quick to criticise.

 

[ChooChooChloe]

I'll disagree with the lateness, and would point out it costs millions for just one new train - as for overcrowded, should trains leave more people behind?

I'm not talking London Midland 'overcrowded' though. I mean dangerously overcrowded - it's like sardines in there, and you've got people with bikes as well. When I went on holiday in August to Llandudno I had to miss the train I was due to catch and wait an hour for the next one because it was absolutely full to bursting. And it's not the first time either.

 

[Llanigraham]

I think Arriva have been fine, their hands have been tied with a non-growth franchise assumption and rubbish rolling stock.

Exactly, but some here cannot/will not see that.

 

[Eccles1983]

As an occasional user of ATW in Cheshire/North Wales, ATW trains are almost always late, don't have enough carriages and are horrendously overcrowded.

And as a daily user in the same area I am telling you that you are wrong.

Very rarely late. And only ever overcrowded (in very loose terms considering trains in and out of manchester) in the peaks.

ATW is by a long way the best TOC in the north.

 

[ChooChooChloe]

And as a daily user in the same area I am telling you that you are wrong.

Very rarely late. And only ever overcrowded (in very loose terms considering trains in and out of manchester) in the peaks.

ATW is by a long way the best TOC in the north.

It depends what you mean by 'in the north'. If you mean 'based in the north' then personally I prefer Northern. If you mean 'serving the north', then I don't think anyone is better than Virgin.

 

[Llanigraham]

I'm not talking London Midland 'overcrowded' though. I mean dangerously overcrowded - it's like sardines in there, and you've got people with bikes as well. When I went on holiday in August to Llandudno I had to miss the train I was due to catch and wait an hour for the next one because it was absolutely full to bursting. And it's not the first time either.

Wow!!
One journey and you condemn the whole franchise across the whole Principality!!
Do you consider that a balanced viewpoint?

 

[ChooChooChloe]

Wow!!
One journey and you condemn the whole franchise across the whole Principality!!
Do you consider that a balanced viewpoint?

Arriva Trains Fails - a Facebook page which highlights some of ATW's may issues: https://www.facebook.com/ATFails/

 

[Doctor Fegg]

Central Trains were run into the ground by that well known coach company National Express, Arriva have never been involved with them.

Central Trains had a no-growth franchise too, so they make an interesting comparison.

CT: ordered a 33-strong fleet of 170s. Shared 30 350s with Silverlink.

ATW: no new units.

CT: repeatedly cut off-peak fares to grow ridership.

ATW: nope. Some of the most extortionate regional fares in Britain, and some pretty unjustifiable pricing anomalies too.

I use the Marches Line frequently (and services from Gloucester and along the South Wales main line infrequently). They are pretty much the most unpleasant services I travel on, in terms of crowding, high prices, inconvenient timetabling and poor-quality stock. Maybe elsewhere they're better, but my real-world experience is that ATW - despite some excellent on-the-ground staff - has been run as a don't-give-a-**** operation comparable to the old Thames Trains or, guess what, today's CrossCountry.

 

[Eccles1983]

It depends what you mean by 'in the north'. If you mean 'based in the north' then personally I prefer Northern. If you mean 'serving the north', then I don't think anyone is better than Virgin.

Serving in and out of manchester.
I meant regional (ish) railways. So out of Northern, Merseyrail, TPE and ATW.

ATW wins hands down. And twice on sundays.

And I work for one of the companies listed, and ATW is better than it.

 

[ChooChooChloe]

Merseyrail I must admit I very, very rarely use. I absolutely dread using TPX if I'm honest.

 

[Eccles1983]

https://www.facebook.com/ATFails/

Is that your evidence?

Dont ever search for northern fail, or tpe fail on twitter. You might self implode.

Actual facts outweigh the general idiot that uses Facebook I'm afraid.

 

[313103]

Ah, the living proof that #2 rises to the top. Good news for Wales I would say.

I wouldn't say it was good news for Wales, certainly not for the staff anyway. I would say it was good news for my colleagues at London Midland they have certainly been happy since he moved. What we do know is that the staff on ATW are venturing into the unknown. The passengers may very be glad they have got rid of Arriva, however i would err on the side of caution 'be careful what you wish for'.

 

[Eccles1983]

Merseyrail I must admit I very, very rarely use. I absolutely dread using TPX if I'm honest.

So you're speaking from a position of complete ignorance then I'm afraid.

 

[Llanigraham]

https://www.facebook.com/ATFails/

That all you can come up with?
As said, you are willing to condemn the whole franchise on some very occasional use one summer and a spurious Facebook page. Pitiful!

 

[ChooChooChloe]

Why are some people on here so aggressive and rude?

 

[ChooChooChloe]

Hardly 'complete' ignorance. Of the four you listed, Merseyrail is the only one I don't use.

 

[Eccles1983]

It's neither agressive or rudeness.

Frankly, such misguided nonsense should and is being challenged robustly.

No one minds genuine fact based gripes, none of which you have provided.

 

[Eccles1983]

Hardly 'complete' ignorance. Of the four you listed, Merseyrail is the only one I don't use.

So in the last 12 mths how many services from Northern, TPE and ATW have you taken?

That might give your opinion some weight.

 

[ChooChooChloe]

So in the last 12 mths how many services from Northern, TPE and ATW have you taken?

That might give your opinion some weight.

Geez, am I on trial or something? Heaven forbid I have an opinion!

 

[Eccles1983]

Well by your own musings your opinion flys in the face of people using the services daily.

So your opinion is invalid unless you add some substance to it.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Arriva pulling out is an huge surprise, particularly as they were reported as having part-funded the lease on the micro-fleet of 769s into the early 2020s and SARPA's latest newsletter had Abellio and Arriva as the only two bidders still in the running. From various comments earlier in this topic (and maybe other topics/fourms), I can think of three possible reasons for Arriva pulling out:

1. They are expecting a direct award and therefore it isn't worth them sinking any more funds in bidding, since a new contest will follow the direct award
2. The Welsh Government / Transport For Wales is asking for something that Arriva does not want to offer in their bid, because they consider it too high risk
3. Similar to (2.), Arriva consider the partial vertical integration of the south Wales metro too high risk

Possible reasons for a direct award could be a further delay to devolution of the franchising powers or the issue of Pacer replacement and TSI-PRM compliance for the class 153 and mark 3 fleets.

 

[JetStream]

I'm not talking London Midland 'overcrowded' though. I mean dangerously overcrowded - it's like sardines in there, and you've got people with bikes as well. When I went on holiday in August to Llandudno I had to miss the train I was due to catch and wait an hour for the next one because it was absolutely full to bursting. And it's not the first time either.

Summer holidays, potentially around a bank holiday/weekend, along a known holiday route. Shy of running multiple trains an hour/having 6+ carriage trains, there's no way of battling the sardines I'm afraid. Next time I'd recommend travelling early/late, and generally avoiding Mondays, Fridays, and Saturdays. Inconvenient, perhaps, but it's a choice between being a sardine or travelling a few hours earlier/later than you'd want.

 

[6Gman]

I use the Marches Line frequently (and services from Gloucester and along the South Wales main line infrequently). They are pretty much the most unpleasant services I travel on, in terms of crowding, high prices, inconvenient timetabling and poor-quality stock. Maybe elsewhere they're better, but my real-world experience is that ATW - despite some excellent on-the-ground staff - has been run as a don't-give-a-**** operation comparable to the old Thames Trains or, guess what, today's CrossCountry.

I use the Marches Line quite often. Can't remember the last time I had to stand. Haven't noticed the fares being out of kilter with other operators. A basic hourly service along the Crewe - Cardiff section (plus 2hourly Shrewsbury - Cardiff) is miles better than what it was historically. And "poor quality stock"? Really? 175s - perhaps the most comfortable DMUs in existence! (Though they could do with a refurb and some TLC)