Wales & Borders Franchise Consultation

[ChooChooChloe]

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/busine...il-wales-pull-out-13833745?service=responsive

Arriva Trains Wales has pulled out of a competitive tender process to run the next Wales and Borders rail franchise.

The decision of the German-owned train company, which is the current holder of the Wales and Borders rail franchise, also means it is no longer in the running to build the next phase of the Welsh Government's Metro transport project...

ATW are absolutely awful and I certainly won't be sorry to see them go. This is good news because responsibility for the next TOC and beyond is being devolved to the Welsh government. So they will be directly responsible for problems, as it should be.

 

[northwichcat]

Exactly. Arriva have had a very difficult hand dealt them in the form of a no growth franchise and they've actually done a reasonable job. I would also argue that as a group their record is no worse than Abellio or Keolis, and MTR haven't really had enough opportunity yet to show what they can do.

If you ask Cheshire passengers are ATW any worse than old Northern (run by an Abellio consortium) I don't think you'll find many people who agree.

 

[PaulHarding150]

If you ask Cheshire passengers are ATW any worse than old Northern (run by an Abellio consortium) I don't think you'll find many people who agree.

Exactly

 

[HowardGWR]

If you ask Cheshire passengers are ATW any worse than old Northern (run by an Abellio consortium) I don't think you'll find many people who agree.

Agree with what - yes or no? Out of interest, what would people here give as score to Arriva -out of 10?

 

[Eccles1983]

Have fun who ever gets stuck with dealing with the farce that is the welsh goverment.

ATW have copped a lot of flack for things way out of the control of the TOC. And the occational strengthing that happens when they borrow Northern units is now a pipedream.

With the WG unable to run a bath but not playing Train Tycoon this will end up being a poison chalice.

 

[PaulHarding150]

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/busine...il-wales-pull-out-13833745?service=responsive

ATW are absolutely awful and I certainly won't be sorry to see them go. This is good news because responsibility for the next TOC and beyond is being devolved to the Welsh government. So they will be directly responsible for problems, as it should be.

Question, why in your opinion is ATW so bad and what could/should they have done better?

Secondly I think you're trotting out a political line there about the fact the Welsh Government can award the next franchise. Personally I have utterly no faith in the Welsh Government and/or TfW in doing this. There's very little experience and knowledge there and the whole process has been left to late.

I'll wager if you come back on here in two years time, you'll have exactly the same complaints about the new operating company as you do now.

 

[PaulHarding150]

Agree with what - yes or no? Out of interest, what would people here give as score to Arriva -out of 10?

For effort? 7-7.5

For doing what their franchise had written on the tin in 2003 probably an 8.

 

[CambrianCoast]

The Welsh Government will only appease their Labour heartlands.

Question, why in your opinion is ATW so bad and what could/should they have done better?

Secondly I think you're trotting of a political line there about the fact the Welsh Government can award the next franchise. Personally I have utterly no faith in the Welsh Government and/or TfW in doing this. There's very little experience and knowledge there and the whole process has been left to late.

I'll wager if you come back on here in two years time, you'll have exactly the same complaints about the new operating company as you do now.

Totally agree!

 

[craigybagel]

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/busine...il-wales-pull-out-13833745?service=responsive

ATW are absolutely awful and I certainly won't be sorry to see them go. This is good news because responsibility for the next TOC and beyond is being devolved to the Welsh government. So they will be directly responsible for problems, as it should be.

But all of that was going to happen regardless of whether ATW were in the competition or not. All that has happened with ATW pulling out is that the WAG only have 3 options to choose from, and not 4. I'm not sure how that can be a good thing - especially when they're looking for innovation and have given a much more broad and open ended set of requirements for bidders to meet than is normally the case.

 

[JetStream]

A few things:

Everyone celebrating the demise of ATW are either wearing whatever the opposite of rose-tinted glasses are, have no knowledge of ATW, are lazily basing their opinion on Wales Online, or, given the forum this is less likely, have no knowledge of franchising/at least ATW.

Are they perfect? Nope. Would any company have been? Nope. Irrespective of who signed the franchise agreement in 2003, the situation would be the same/worse.

@craigybagel is right - less choice for the WG means less likelihood of any real change. It's lazy, easy, and frankly shows a lack of knowledge of the ATW franchise, to simply celebrate this news.

 

[CommuterPigeon]

Regardless of how you feel about Arriva I can't see how this can be viewed as good news. They are the incumbent and for a company as big and experienced as them to not want to defend their franchise suggests there is probably a pretty big problem with the letting process. I would imagine it's to do with TfW's vanity project on CVL and the risk around that.

I also wonder if Arriva were just the first to blink and we may have another drop out...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Are they perfect? Nope. Would any company have been? Nope. Irrespective of who signed the franchise agreement in 2003, the situation would be the same/worse.

I'm not saying they would be *perfect*, but that lackadaisical attitude pervades near enough all of Arriva's operations, not just ATW. It would not be tolerated at Stagecoach, and even Govia (LM) isn't that bad.

 

[northwichcat]

Agree with what - yes or no?

Are ATW worse than old Northern? Agree normally means people say 'yes' in response.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I wonder if the new MD knew about the withdrawal before he took the job...
I suppose it increases the possibility of Arriva getting an extension while the others fight it out.
With DB/Arriva not involved in HS2, possibly they have decided to keep their firepower for the XC rebid.
Let's also remember that ATW was consistently profitable for Arriva in its 15-year life, at times propping up their glossier franchises (Chiltern and XC).

 

[Eccles1983]

Govia isnt as bad as ATW?

Stop the world, I and every other sane person wants to get off.

 

[JetStream]

I'm not saying they would be *perfect*, but that lackadaisical attitude pervades near enough all of Arriva's operations, not just ATW. It would not be tolerated at Stagecoach, and even Govia (LM) isn't that bad.

What lackadaisical attitude?

 

[Bletchleyite]

What lackadaisical attitude?

Dirty trains/buses, failure to complete repairs other than those required to make the train go etc. Very similar to Central Trains if anyone remembers them.

 

[Gareth Marston]

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/busine...il-wales-pull-out-13833745?service=responsive

ATW are absolutely awful and I certainly won't be sorry to see them go. This is good news because responsibility for the next TOC and beyond is being devolved to the Welsh government. So they will be directly responsible for problems, as it should be.

Your Welsh Government was a happy willing co signatory to the current franchise agreement which was awarded from London. Labour being in power in both locations at the time. Arriva have delivered what New Labour in London and Welsh Labour wanted in 2003.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Govia isnt as bad as ATW?

Stop the world, I and every other sane person wants to get off.

Give LM a try. And Southern don't deserve the entirety of their bad press - most of it is the industrial relations issue caused by a franchise requirement imposed on them by the Government.

 

[Eccles1983]

Dirty trains/buses, failure to complete repairs etc.

Utter nonsense.

You're showing yourself up with another matter you know nothing about.

Arriva traincare in crewe is swamped, as is nearly every other heavy rail workshop.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Regardless of how you feel about Arriva I can't see how this can be viewed as good news. They are the incumbent and for a company as big and experienced as them to not want to defend their franchise suggests there is probably a pretty big problem with the letting process. I would imagine it's to do with TfW's vanity project on CVL and the risk around that.

I also wonder if Arriva were just the first to blink and we may have another drop out...

Ask anyone whose been involved in public procurement run by WelshGovernment and they'll tell you it's not a process that leaves a good taste in the mouth.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Utter nonsense.

Did you ever use Arriva buses in MK? They are appallingly bad. They do seem to have got some new buses of late, but it won't be long before the complete lack of maintenance ("does it go? That'll do.") will result in bits hanging off those, too.

As I said, Stagecoach would never tolerate it.

When I've used ATW I've found it to be the same. Quality refurb jobs left to rack and ruin over time.

Arriva traincare in crewe is swamped, as is nearly every other heavy rail workshop.

And that is the passenger's problem because?

 

[Eccles1983]

Ive tried LM.

Overcrowed and often late trains.

I dont get the slamming of ATW. As a regular user of them I really have no concerns, and considering they have delivered on the contract they signed.

 

[Eccles1983]

Did you ever use Arriva buses in MK? They are appallingly bad. They do seem to have got some new buses of late, but it won't be long before the complete lack of maintenance ("does it go? That'll do.") will result in bits hanging off those, too.

As I said, Stagecoach would never tolerate it.

When I've used ATW I've found it to be the same. Quality refurb jobs left to rack and ruin over time.



And that is the passenger's problem because?

I would rather not visit milton keynes again. Dire drab place.

And you need to come on a stagecoach bus up here in t'north. Its not all honey and milk.

Furthermore the bus and rail parts are completely seperate entitys.

And arriva traincare being the passengers problem? That highlights your lack of knowledge of actual workings of traction. Its not an easy job.

And I despite using ATW daily have never encountered the problems you seem to have done.

 

[313103]

I'm sure that's true to some extent, but whenever I see Arriva I see a lackadaisical half-job, and ATW is no exception.

Keolis, Abellio & MTR ! and you say Arriva do a 'lackadasical half job, irony if ever was one.

Keolis 35% ownership of Govia hmmmm the less said about them the better. They also have never run a company on the railway in its own right!

MTR well their part in the UK rail industry has seen them shed Guards jobs on London Overground and their joint venture with First group for the South Western Franchise includes more of the same thing.

Abellio it has not all been bad news from them, although plans to introduce Guardless trains in the West Midlands.

 

[313103]

Dirty trains/buses, failure to complete repairs other than those required to make the train go etc. Very similar to Central Trains if anyone remembers them.

Central Trains were run into the ground by that well known coach company National Express, Arriva have never been involved with them.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I think ATW have been competent, without exciting anybody.
They have extracted high productivity from a weak rolling stock hand, although I'm not a fan of the standard pattern timetable.
They have also done a few station upgrades, though none has been in any sense fantastic.
I think they have been marking time for the last 5 years (one reason why long franchises don't work).
But they are far better than what went before (First North Western, mostly, in my case).
Arriva as a group is also significantly bigger and more capable than it was in 2003, with more franchises and the traincare business.
Maybe they are just fed up with being given the run-around by WG and DfT, who still haven't agreed on the new franchise spec and bid process.
Apart from the Metro, I can't see what MTR or Keolis/Amey bring to the party.
Abellio seems the best fit for the wider franchise now, to me.
As for assets, Arriva Traincare is not part of the franchise, nor is at least one of the LHCS sets which was donated by DB.

 

[gazthomas]

I think Arriva have been fine, their hands have been tied with a non-growth franchise assumption and rubbish rolling stock.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Nice for the tories to suggest a bidder backing out is a weakness in the welsh labour government. As if no one has ever backed out of a tory franchise bid?????

 

[gareth950]

Nice for the tories to suggest a bidder backing out is a weakness in the welsh labour government. As if no one has ever backed out of a tory franchise bid?????

Do you expect nothing less from the Tories and RT Davies? They never miss an opportunity to point score in Wales.