Wales & Borders Franchise Consultation

[PHILIPE]

I've got a feeling the franchise is going to be influenced by factors such as Welsh Government trying to get one over on Westmister, pet projects such as promoting Cardiff to Holyhead services which haven't got a great passenger demand, giving priority to the Metro over needs of the travelling public and a power grab over Infrastructure issues. To summarise throw their toys out of the pram if they can't get their way even at the expense of their travelling public.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I am with Carwyn & Ken on the this one. Whilst I fully support a shift of people to rail, the only viable solution to getting traffic free flowing in and out of south Wales is to build the black route M4 south of Newport. The economy needs an excellent road system combined with a high quality rail network. The present situation on the M4 at Newport is really dire with long delays and many accidents. The environmental damage is not that great as much of the route passes through south Newport’s industrial zone and the ‘green' areas it would cross are not natural wetlands but farmland that has been drained since Roman times. In fact, it was Brunel who would have caused greater environmental damage to this area when he built the railway - but then the Victorians actually got on and did things.

The Brynglas Tunnels and the Welsh end of the M4 actually have a lower accident rate and delays than the UK Motorway average, its a problem of perception that the official statistics don't back up.
The costs are already escalating on this project and with the Welsh Government less than impressive track record on keeping its pet road projects on budget (see the A465 problems) it will just suck and suck more £ into it with even greater opportunity cost.
No one who supports this road has been able to answer this question which I have asked repeatedly with no reply.

What do you do with all the induced traffic it will generate?

The answer of course is that you lose all your perceived gains around Newport with greater congestion around the Cardiff, Seven Bridge and M5/M4 junctions. The road will just contribute to bigger problems elsewhere.

 

[gareth950]

I am with Carwyn & Ken on the this one. Whilst I fully support a shift of people to rail, the only viable solution to getting traffic free flowing in and out of south Wales is to build the black route M4 south of Newport. The economy needs an excellent road system combined with a high quality rail network. The present situation on the M4 at Newport is really dire with long delays and many accidents. The environmental damage is not that great as much of the route passes through south Newport’s industrial zone and the ‘green' areas it would cross are not natural wetlands but farmland that has been drained since Roman times. In fact, it was Brunel who would have caused greater environmental damage to this area when he built the railway - but then the Victorians actually got on and did things.

Ecologists have assessed that the black route will be the most environmentally and ecologically destructive road in Wales, possibly Europe, wiping out rare animal and plant species only found in the Gwent levels.

There's an unlimited pot of money going into billions available for the M4 and Heads of the Valleys road, no matter what, but the Valley lines and 'Metro' can't even afford any HR track doubling or infrastructure upgrades or any HR electrification. The wider franchise will be lucky to get any investment in infrastructure, anywhere.

It's pathetic and truly exposes the current Welsh Govt's attitudes towards public transport, despite their empty rhetoric about 'sustainability' etc.

 

[SeanM1997]

I hope this franchise can enhance services for border towns, and not just the valleys. I think there is scope (in the franchise agreement) to boost services in England too, and I think the following services would be ideal for the franchise (English services only):

1ph Holyhead to Shrewsbury via Crewe. 1p2h extends to Birmingham International and 1p2h extends to Cardiff Central. These would call at all stations after Crewe
1ph Llandudno to Manchester Airport via Warrington Bank Quay
1ph Manchester Piccadilly to Carmarthen running an as a semi fast service between Crewe and Newport (Crewe, Nantwich, Whitchurch, Shrewsbury, Hereford and Newport). Extending every two hours to Milford Haven and every two hours to Pembroke Dock
1ph Shrewsbury to Cardiff Central calling at all stations. If DfT permitted this could be extended to Crewe.
1p2h Aberystwyth to Birmingham International
1p2h Aberystwyth to Crewe via Gobowen replacing Crewe-Chester shuttle calling at all stations
1p2h Cardiff Central to Crewe via Gobowen replacing Crewe-Chester shuttle calling at all stations
1ph Shrewsbury to Liverpool Lime Street via Gobowen and Runcorn
2ph Bidston to Wrexham Central doubling frequency on route
1ph Maesteg to Cheltenham Spa
1ph Swansea to Gloucester

This would mean a doubling of frequency between Crewe and Chester, Chester and Shrewsbury via Gobowen, all stations between Crewe and Shrewsbury, and provide three trains an hour between Newport and Shrewsbury. On the Cambrian Line, it would mean an hourly service all day every day with direct services to Wrexham, Chester and Crewe. There would also bean hourly service between Cardiff and Chester, one via Wrexham and one via Crewe. All these routes are permissible on the DfT contract

 

[Llanigraham]

On the Cambrian Line, it would mean an hourly service all day every day with direct services to Wrexham, Chester and Crewe.

I'm intrigued to know why you think that is neccessary?
From my experience most of the passengers from this line are heading to Birmingham and mot those 3 places.

 

[PHILIPE]

I hope this franchise can enhance services for border towns, and not just the valleys. I think there is scope (in the franchise agreement) to boost services in England too, and I think the following services would be ideal for the franchise (English services only):

1ph Holyhead to Shrewsbury via Crewe. 1p2h extends to Birmingham International and 1p2h extends to Cardiff Central. These would call at all stations after Crewe
1ph Llandudno to Manchester Airport via Warrington Bank Quay
1ph Manchester Piccadilly to Carmarthen running an as a semi fast service between Crewe and Newport (Crewe, Nantwich, Whitchurch, Shrewsbury, Hereford and Newport). Extending every two hours to Milford Haven and every two hours to Pembroke Dock
1ph Shrewsbury to Cardiff Central calling at all stations. If DfT permitted this could be extended to Crewe.
1p2h Aberystwyth to Birmingham International
1p2h Aberystwyth to Crewe via Gobowen replacing Crewe-Chester shuttle calling at all stations
1p2h Cardiff Central to Crewe via Gobowen replacing Crewe-Chester shuttle calling at all stations
1ph Shrewsbury to Liverpool Lime Street via Gobowen and Runcorn
2ph Bidston to Wrexham Central doubling frequency on route
1ph Maesteg to Cheltenham Spa
1ph Swansea to Gloucester

This would mean a doubling of frequency between Crewe and Chester, Chester and Shrewsbury via Gobowen, all stations between Crewe and Shrewsbury, and provide three trains an hour between Newport and Shrewsbury. On the Cambrian Line, it would mean an hourly service all day every day with direct services to Wrexham, Chester and Crewe. There would also bean hourly service between Cardiff and Chester, one via Wrexham and one via Crewe. All these routes are permissible on the DfT contract

Where are all the units coming from ? Would there be paths for all these extra trains ? How many would be overkill ?

 

[allaction]

As more passengers in Pembrokeshire (267,338) now annually travel over the Whitland-Pembroke Dock line than on the Milford Haven line (239,372), according to the latest official figures quoted recently in the Tenby Observer, surely all direct services from Manchester Piccadilly should, in future, serve the Dock rather than the Milford branch where the 150s currently on the Dock line can be used instead?

*ducks*

 

[PHILIPE]

As more passengers in Pembrokeshire (267,338) now annually travel over the Whitland-Pembroke Dock line than on the Milford Haven line (239,372), according to the latest official figures quoted recently in the Tenby Observer, surely all direct services from Manchester Piccadilly should, in future, serve the Dock rather than the Milford branch where the 150s currently on the Dock line can be used instead?

*ducks*

I can't see any reason to alter it as I'm sure there are not many passengers who travel long distances on them

 

[edwin_m]

As more passengers in Pembrokeshire (267,338) now annually travel over the Whitland-Pembroke Dock line than on the Milford Haven line (239,372), according to the latest official figures quoted recently in the Tenby Observer, surely all direct services from Manchester Piccadilly should, in future, serve the Dock rather than the Milford branch where the 150s currently on the Dock line can be used instead?

*ducks*

The Pembroke Dock line has more stations, which may explain its greater useage, and a longer journey time. Pembroke Dock trains have to meet each other at the Tenby loop, or it might be possible with a bit of acceleration and minimum turnaround to have them passing close to Whitland on the main line instead. Either way there would be a risk of a late Down train causing delay to an Up train, which would be a big performance risk for a service that travels all the way to/from Manchester. The Milford line is partly double track so it has more flexibility to accommodate late running.

 

[berneyarms]

Where are all the units coming from ? Would there be paths for all these extra trains ? How many would be overkill ?

Whatever about the paths, surely in looking at the new W & B franchise people are allowed to come with suggestions that would include potential new orders of rolling stock that expands the fleet, as most other recent franchise awards have done?

We aren’t in a vaccuum - the W & B fleet will presumably expand somehow, post-franchise award.

 

[gareth950]

Whatever about the paths, surely in looking at the new W & B franchise people are allowed to come with suggestions that would include potential new orders of rolling stock that expands the fleet, as most other recent franchise awards have done?

We aren’t in a vaccuum - the W & B fleet will presumably expand somehow, post-franchise award.

Why do you think the new CAF factory is going up in Newport? Despite the information & news blackout surrounding the award of the new franchise, I'm sure many elements of it have already been specified and decided upon by the Welsh Govt. CAF must have been made some very big promises in return for choosing Newport as the site for it's new factory......

 

[berneyarms]

Why do you think the new CAF factory is going up in Newport? Despite the information & news blackout surrounding the award of the new franchise, I'm sure many elements of it have already been specified and decided upon by the Welsh Govt. CAF must have been made some very big promises in return for choosing Newport as the site for it's new factory......

Whatever about the CAF factory, telling people that there are no units when talking about a new franchise (as Philipe did) is a nonsense, because the franchise may well include orders for brand new replacement and additional rolling stock.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Whatever about the CAF factory, telling people that there are no units when talking about a new franchise (as Philipe did) is a nonsense, because the franchise may well include orders for brand new replacement and additional rolling stock.

It may indeed, but there will have to be a decent business case for it.
The infrastructure may well be a limiting factor in places.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I'm intrigued to know why you think that is neccessary?
From my experience most of the passengers from this line are heading to Birmingham and mot those 3 places.

Wrexhams a bit of a non event in terms of where folk from Newtown go to. In fact more folk go to Scotland. What folk want is better connections toward Manchester/ Crew at Shrewsbury the current 40 minute waits in both directions are very poor.

 

[6Gman]

I hope this franchise can enhance services for border towns, and not just the valleys. I think there is scope (in the franchise agreement) to boost services in England too, and I think the following services would be ideal for the franchise (English services only):

1ph Holyhead to Shrewsbury via Crewe. 1p2h extends to Birmingham International and 1p2h extends to Cardiff Central. These would call at all stations after Crewe
1ph Llandudno to Manchester Airport via Warrington Bank Quay
1ph Manchester Piccadilly to Carmarthen running an as a semi fast service between Crewe and Newport (Crewe, Nantwich, Whitchurch, Shrewsbury, Hereford and Newport). Extending every two hours to Milford Haven and every two hours to Pembroke Dock
1ph Shrewsbury to Cardiff Central calling at all stations. If DfT permitted this could be extended to Crewe.
1p2h Aberystwyth to Birmingham International
1p2h Aberystwyth to Crewe via Gobowen replacing Crewe-Chester shuttle calling at all stations
1p2h Cardiff Central to Crewe via Gobowen replacing Crewe-Chester shuttle calling at all stations
1ph Shrewsbury to Liverpool Lime Street via Gobowen and Runcorn
2ph Bidston to Wrexham Central doubling frequency on route
1ph Maesteg to Cheltenham Spa
1ph Swansea to Gloucester

This would mean a doubling of frequency between Crewe and Chester, Chester and Shrewsbury via Gobowen, all stations between Crewe and Shrewsbury, and provide three trains an hour between Newport and Shrewsbury. On the Cambrian Line, it would mean an hourly service all day every day with direct services to Wrexham, Chester and Crewe. There would also bean hourly service between Cardiff and Chester, one via Wrexham and one via Crewe. All these routes are permissible on the DfT contract

That does seem a huge increase in train-miles which - unless it prompts a huge increase in passenger-miles - can only lead to a substantial increase in subsidy.

There are also some strange features e.g. the through Manchester - S Wales calls at Nantwich, but not Ludlow; and significant performance risks e.g. the Chester - Crewe shuttle starts back from Aberystwyth/ Cardiff.

 

[berneyarms]

It may indeed, but there will have to be a decent business case for it.
The infrastructure may well be a limiting factor in places.

I specifically said in post #1900 that I wasn’t commenting on path availability, and I really wasn’t commenting on the specific proposals.

I was making the point that if you’re looking at what a new franchise might do, trotting out the line about no rolling stock goes out the window and isn’t really an appropriate counter-argument.

The lack of rolling stock is an issue the current franchise faces but the status quo won’t necessarily apply.

I’d be staggered if there is no expansion of the W & B fleet in the new franchise, and it’s perfectly possible that some of that may be new build stock.

 

[Parallel]

I haven't had a detailed look at paths and it would be out of the question with the current level of stock availability, but I'd like to see something like the below:

Cambrian line
- 1tph Aberystwyth to Shrewsbury (Birmingham Intl services joining with 1tp2h from Pwllheli at Machynlleth); 1tp2h extending to Birmingham International & 1tp2h extending all stations to Crewe.

North Wales Coast
- 2tph Llandudno - Llandudno Junction; 1tph extending to Manchester Airport; 1tp2h extending all stations to Holyhead & 1tp2h extending to Blaenau Ffestiniog
- 1tph Holyhead to Chester principle stations only (except peak times); 1tp2h extending to Birmingham International via Stafford & 1tp2h extending to Cardiff Central

Chester area services
- 1tph Chester to Shrewsbury; 1tp2h extending to Cardiff Central & 1tp2h extending to Birmingham International joining at Wolverhampton with 1tp2h from Holyhead
- 1tp2h Holyhead to Birmingham International via Stafford
- 1tph Chester - Crewe; 1tp2h extending Crewe - Shrewsbury calling at Nantwich, Whitchurch and Wem.
- 1tph to Holyhead principal stations only (Shotton, Flint, Prestatyn, Rhyl, Colwyn Bay, Llandudno Junction, Bangor and Holyhead - More stops on peak time trains)
- 1tph to Llandudno calling at all stations
- 1tph to Manchester Airport via Warrington

Shrewsbury & Marches line area services
- 3tp2h Shrewsbury - Cardiff Central; 1tph extending to Carmarthen; 1tp2h extending to Milford Haven (as now)
- 1tph Shrewsbury to Chester; 1tp2h extending principle stations to Holyhead
- 4tp2h to Crewe with 1tph extending to Manchester Picadilly; 1tp2h all stations to Crewe; 1tp2h calling at Wem, Whitchurch, Nantwich and Crewe and extending to Chester
- 1tph to Birmingham International
- 1tph to Aberystwyth with 1tp2h to Pwllheli dividing at Machynlleth
- 1tp2h to Llandrindod with 1tp4h extending to Swansea via HOWL
- 1tp2h Hereford to Bristol Temple Meads via Maindee East Curve (maybe operated by GWR though?)
- 1tph Abergavenny to Maesteg

Cardiff Central mainline services
- 1tph Maesteg to Abergavenny all stations
- 1tph Swansea to Cheltenham Spa all stations Swansea - Bridgend
- 3tp2h to Shrewsbury; 1tph to Manchester Piccadilly & 1tp2h to Holyhead
- 1tph to Carmarthen; 1tp2h to Milford Haven
- 1tph Cardiff to Ebbw Vale Town
- 1tph Newport to Ebbw Vale Town
- 1tp2h Cardiff Central to Whitland; 1tp4h to Pembroke Dock & 1tp4h to Fishguard Harbour (running via District line)

Swansea area services
- 1tph to Manchester Piccadilly
- 1tph to Carmarthen; 1tp2h extending to Milford Haven
- 1tp4h to Pembroke Dock
- 1tp2h to Llandovery; 1tp4h to Shrewsbury (Passengers can change at Llanelli for a connection to Pembroke/Fishguard that comes off the District line)
- 1tph to Cheltenham Spa (all stations Swansea - Bridgend)

So in short, the basic service pattern would be:
1tp2h Cardiff to Holyhead (Class 175)
1tph Carmarthen - Manchester Piccadilly (1tp2h to/from Milford Haven) (Class 175)
1tph Swansea - Cheltenham Spa (Swanline service) (Class 150)
1tph Maesteg - Abergavenny (Class 150 or 14x in meantime)
2tph Ebbw Vale branch, alternating between Cardiff and Newport (Class 150 or 14x)
1tp2h Pembroke Dock - Llanelli alternating between Swansea and Cardiff via District (Whatever stock is available)
1tp4h Fishguard Harbour - Cardiff via District line (Whatever stock is available)
1tp2h Swansea - Llandovery with 1tp4h doing the full line (Class 150 or 153)
1tp2h Shrewsbury - Llandrindod with 1tp4h doing the full run to Swansea (Class 150 or 153)
1tp2h Hereford - Bristol Temple Meads avoiding Newport (possibly GWR?) (Class 16x?)
1tph Aberystwyth & 1tp2h ex Pwllheli joining at Machynlleth to Shrewsbury alternating between Birmingham Intl (4 cars) and all stops to Crewe (2 cars) (Class 158)
1tp2h semi fast Shrewsbury - Chester via Crewe (Class 150)
1tp2h Birmingham International to Holyhead via Stafford, & Chester via Shrewsbury splitting at Wolverhampton (Class 158)
1tph Manchester Airport to Llandudno (Loco hauled/150/153/158/175)
1tp2h Llandudno to Blaenau Ffestiniog (Class 150)
1tp2h Llandudno to Holyhead all stations (Class 150)
3tp2h Wrexham Central to Bidston (one every 45 mins)

At peak times & late evening, I'd still support some of the faster trains stopping at more stations. Virgin Trains and GWR would still operate to Bangor/Holyhead and Swansea/Carmarthen but I've only included Welsh franchise services.

 

[craigybagel]

There are also some strange features e.g. the through Manchester - S Wales calls at Nantwich, but not Ludlow; and significant performance risks e.g. the Chester - Crewe shuttle starts back from Aberystwyth/ Cardiff.

The big demand from Ludlow is to Shrewsbury, Hereford and Leominster. A Manchester service is possibly less important to them then it is to the people of Nantwich. I do agree though that extending the Crewe Chester shuttle in that way does seem risky - and given it would take 1:20 to get from Crewe to Shrewsbury that way (as opposed to 30 minutes for a direct non stop service) that seems a bit pointless.

Some very nice ideas in there though IMO, no worse then some of the things you see politicians suggesting in newspapers from time to time.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

You don't mention services to Liverpool.
They will be very difficult to graft on to an existing timetable if they are to be more than a Liverpool-Chester shuttle.
Alternating between Wrexham/Llandudno Jn would be my vote.
Anything beyond Shrewsbury will still be faster via Crewe, so I'd hope to see some through workings Cardiff-Crewe-Liverpool, possibly linked to a Bristol service.

Just getting my head round a combined Birmingham Int-Stafford-Holyhead with Birmingham-Shrewsbury-Wrexham-Chester.
Split/join at Wolverhampton isn't very practical, and both portions running to Chester (faster/slower) will cause some head-scratching.
But a return to the faster route would be welcome.

 

[craigybagel]

I too would love to see Chester - Birmingham revert to the direct route via Stafford, Crewe - Liverpool, but neither are covered in the agreement with the Transport Secretary re: English services.

 

[Parallel]

You don't mention services to Liverpool.
They will be very difficult to graft on to an existing timetable if they are to be more than a Liverpool-Chester shuttle.
Alternating between Wrexham/Llandudno Jn would be my vote.
Anything beyond Shrewsbury will still be faster via Crewe, so I'd hope to see some through workings Cardiff-Crewe-Liverpool, possibly linked to a Bristol service.

Just getting my head round a combined Birmingham Int-Stafford-Holyhead with Birmingham-Shrewsbury-Wrexham-Chester.
Split/join at Wolverhampton isn't very practical, and both portions running to Chester (faster/slower) will cause some head-scratching.
But a return to the faster route would be welcome.

I didn’t list Liverpool as I thought it may be better suited in the Northern franchise?

Trains at International/New St/Galton Bridge and Wolverhampton would be advertised as “Holyhead & Wrexham General” but after the train splits, stations such as Telford would just say “Chester”. On the inbound journey, screens at Chester would say “Telford Central” but at Wrexham, “Birmingham Intl”. SWT did this with Chandlers Ford and Romsey.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I didn’t list Liverpool as I thought it may be better suited in the Northern franchise?

It isn't in the current Northern franchise, but is promised by Dec 2018 (initial funding from Liverpool City Region).
All the signs are that W&B will operate it, so it ought to be in the current franchise negotiation.
But they might have to borrow Northern stock to do it.

 

[PHILIPE]

I didn’t list Liverpool as I thought it may be better suited in the Northern franchise?

Trains at International/New St/Galton Bridge and Wolverhampton would be advertised as “Holyhead & Wrexham General” but after the train splits, stations such as Telford would just say “Chester”. On the inbound journey, screens at Chester would say “Telford Central” but at Wrexham, “Birmingham Intl”. SWT did this with Chandlers Ford and Romsey.

Regarding Liverpool, we shall have the Halton Curve available

 

[Gareth Marston]

I haven't had a detailed look at paths and it would be out of the question with the current level of stock availability, but I'd like to see something like the below:

Cambrian line
- 1tph Aberystwyth to Shrewsbury (Birmingham Intl services joining with 1tp2h from Pwllheli at Machynlleth); 1tp2h extending to Birmingham International & 1tp2h extending all stations to Crewe.

North Wales Coast
- 2tph Llandudno - Llandudno Junction; 1tph extending to Manchester Airport; 1tp2h extending all stations to Holyhead & 1tp2h extending to Blaenau Ffestiniog
- 1tph Holyhead to Chester principle stations only (except peak times); 1tp2h extending to Birmingham International via Stafford & 1tp2h extending to Cardiff Central

Chester area services
- 1tph Chester to Shrewsbury; 1tp2h extending to Cardiff Central & 1tp2h extending to Birmingham International joining at Wolverhampton with 1tp2h from Holyhead
- 1tp2h Holyhead to Birmingham International via Stafford
- 1tph Chester - Crewe; 1tp2h extending Crewe - Shrewsbury calling at Nantwich, Whitchurch and Wem.
- 1tph to Holyhead principal stations only (Shotton, Flint, Prestatyn, Rhyl, Colwyn Bay, Llandudno Junction, Bangor and Holyhead - More stops on peak time trains)
- 1tph to Llandudno calling at all stations
- 1tph to Manchester Airport via Warrington

Shrewsbury & Marches line area services
- 3tp2h Shrewsbury - Cardiff Central; 1tph extending to Carmarthen; 1tp2h extending to Milford Haven (as now)
- 1tph Shrewsbury to Chester; 1tp2h extending principle stations to Holyhead
- 4tp2h to Crewe with 1tph extending to Manchester Picadilly; 1tp2h all stations to Crewe; 1tp2h calling at Wem, Whitchurch, Nantwich and Crewe and extending to Chester
- 1tph to Birmingham International
- 1tph to Aberystwyth with 1tp2h to Pwllheli dividing at Machynlleth
- 1tp2h to Llandrindod with 1tp4h extending to Swansea via HOWL
- 1tp2h Hereford to Bristol Temple Meads via Maindee East Curve (maybe operated by GWR though?)
- 1tph Abergavenny to Maesteg

Cardiff Central mainline services
- 1tph Maesteg to Abergavenny all stations
- 1tph Swansea to Cheltenham Spa all stations Swansea - Bridgend
- 3tp2h to Shrewsbury; 1tph to Manchester Piccadilly & 1tp2h to Holyhead
- 1tph to Carmarthen; 1tp2h to Milford Haven
- 1tph Cardiff to Ebbw Vale Town
- 1tph Newport to Ebbw Vale Town
- 1tp2h Cardiff Central to Whitland; 1tp4h to Pembroke Dock & 1tp4h to Fishguard Harbour (running via District line)

Swansea area services
- 1tph to Manchester Piccadilly
- 1tph to Carmarthen; 1tp2h extending to Milford Haven
- 1tp4h to Pembroke Dock
- 1tp2h to Llandovery; 1tp4h to Shrewsbury (Passengers can change at Llanelli for a connection to Pembroke/Fishguard that comes off the District line)
- 1tph to Cheltenham Spa (all stations Swansea - Bridgend)

So in short, the basic service pattern would be:
1tp2h Cardiff to Holyhead (Class 175)
1tph Carmarthen - Manchester Piccadilly (1tp2h to/from Milford Haven) (Class 175)
1tph Swansea - Cheltenham Spa (Swanline service) (Class 150)
1tph Maesteg - Abergavenny (Class 150 or 14x in meantime)
2tph Ebbw Vale branch, alternating between Cardiff and Newport (Class 150 or 14x)
1tp2h Pembroke Dock - Llanelli alternating between Swansea and Cardiff via District (Whatever stock is available)
1tp4h Fishguard Harbour - Cardiff via District line (Whatever stock is available)
1tp2h Swansea - Llandovery with 1tp4h doing the full line (Class 150 or 153)
1tp2h Shrewsbury - Llandrindod with 1tp4h doing the full run to Swansea (Class 150 or 153)
1tp2h Hereford - Bristol Temple Meads avoiding Newport (possibly GWR?) (Class 16x?)
1tph Aberystwyth & 1tp2h ex Pwllheli joining at Machynlleth to Shrewsbury alternating between Birmingham Intl (4 cars) and all stops to Crewe (2 cars) (Class 158)
1tp2h semi fast Shrewsbury - Chester via Crewe (Class 150)
1tp2h Birmingham International to Holyhead via Stafford, & Chester via Shrewsbury splitting at Wolverhampton (Class 158)
1tph Manchester Airport to Llandudno (Loco hauled/150/153/158/175)
1tp2h Llandudno to Blaenau Ffestiniog (Class 150)
1tp2h Llandudno to Holyhead all stations (Class 150)
3tp2h Wrexham Central to Bidston (one every 45 mins)

At peak times & late evening, I'd still support some of the faster trains stopping at more stations. Virgin Trains and GWR would still operate to Bangor/Holyhead and Swansea/Carmarthen but I've only included Welsh franchise services.

We're not going to see any heroic increases in frequency away from the South Wales Metro the Welsh Government simply does not "get" or cares enough about Wales actually having a modern public transport system. It likes to pretend everything it does is "world class" the reality is far different. Hopefully we'll see some tidying up of frequency. Hourly on Cambriian mainline, 2 tph Shrewsbury to Cardiff, hourly Cardiff to Cheltenham etc

 

[6Gman]

A few thoughts from the northern end of the franchise.

Firstly, threads like this usually generate suggestions for both extra trains and longer trains. Are these generally justified? For example, somebody has already suggested 5-cars for Manchester-South Wales. Use these trains a fair bit - in the general run of things 3-cars are perfectly adequate. If only they could all be 3-cars ...

So, my first thought was to turn them round at Swansea thus reducing the number of units needed so hopefully ensuring they can all be 3-cars. BUT, the Welsh Assembly would doubtless kick off about Llanelli, Carmarthen etc losing a direct link to "the City which is the centre of the known universe"

So perhaps turn them round at Cardiff so everybody keeps that vital* link.

And then make the Stockport and Wilmslow stops pick-up only on southbound trains to avoid overcrowding with short-distance commuters.

Make the Crewe - Shrewsbury stopper hourly (needs 1 extra unit), and cut out most of the Nantwich and Whitchurch stops on the long distance trains (maybe keep a few in for commuting to/from Manchester).

* Copyright WAG

 

[PHILIPE]

West Wales Manchester trains were split at Cardiff in the past but became through trains to keep them going head on to avoid shunting movements across the throat to and from Canton as a performance issue

 

[4-SUB 4732]

I would sooner we focus on a German-inspired timetable. All of the timetables on ATW are either hourly, two-hourly, half-hourly or something along those lines (or at least should be).

Certain things I would consider to be priorities:
- Hourly service from Holyhead to Chester stopping at only the busiest stations and
- Two-hourly service from Holyhead towards Chester calling at more local stations
- Half-hourly service from Llandudno to Llandudno Junction where you either have connections with trains from Holyhead (the Ffestiniog services etc) and an hourly service towards Chester
- Hourly service from Chester to Shrewsbury via Wrexham (minimum) with some peak additional services
- Hourly service from Manchester to Milford Haven semi-fast
- Additional hourly service from the Shrewsbury area to Cardiff and Newport calling at local stations to accelerate the Manchester to Milford Haven

So to suggest, in my mind, the best situation would be:
- 1tph Holyhead to Manchester Airport (Bangor, Conwy, Llandudno Jn, Colwyn Bay, Rhyl, Flint, Shotton, Chester, Runcorn East, Warrington Bank Quay, Earlestown, Newton le Willows, Deansgate, Oxford Rd, Piccadilly, Manchester Airport)
- 1tp2h Llandudno to Blaenau (All stations)
- 1tp2h Llandudno to Llandudno Jn shuttle (Deganwy) Portion attached/detached on the below Chester service at peak times
- 1tp2h Holyhead to Chester (Valley, Rhosneigr, Ty Croes, Bodorgan, Llanfairpwll, Bangor, Llanfairfechan, Penmaenmawr, Conwy, Llandudno Jn, Colwyn Bay, Rhyl, Prestatyn, Shotton, Chester)
- 1tph Llandudno to Crewe (Deganwy, Llandudno Jn, Abergele, Rhyl, Prestatyn, Flint, Shotton, Chester, Crewe)
- 1tph Liverpool Lime Street to Cardiff Central (Liverpool South Pkwy, Runcorn, Frodsham, Helsby, Chester, Wrexham General, Ruabon, Chirk, Gobowen, Shrewsbury, Church Stretton, Craven Arms, Ludlow, Leominster, Hereford, Abergavenny, Pontypool, Cwmbran, Newport, Cardiff Central)
- 1tph Manchester Piccadilly to Milford Haven (Stockport, Wilmslow, Crewe, Nantwich, Whitchurch, Wem, Shrewsbury, Ludlow, Leominster, Hereford, Abergavenny, Cwmbran, Newport, Cardiff Central, Bridgend, Port Talbot, Neath, Swansea, Llanelli, Pembrey, Carmarthen, Whitland, Haverfordwest, Johnston, Milford Haven)
- 1tp2h Crewe to Pembroke Dock (Nantwich, Wrenbury, Whitchurch, Prees, Wem, Yorton, Shrewsbury, Church Stretton, Craven Arms, all stations to Llanelli via Builth Road, all stations to Pembroke Dock via Carmarthen)
- 1tph Aberystwyth to Birmingham New St (All stations to Shrewsbury, select stations via Wolves to Brum)
- 1tp2h Pwllheli to Machynlleth (All stations) Portion onto / off Birmingham service
- 1tp2h Swansea to Fishguard Harbour (All stations via Carmarthen)
- 1tph Ebbw Vale Parkway to Swansea (Swanline stopper)
- 1tph Ebbw Vale Parkway to Newport
- 1tph Cheltenham Spa to Maesteg (semi-fast)
Additional peak services to/from Chester from Shrewsbury via Wrexham with portion added to Manchester service. 5/6 car trains at peak hours.

Then Valley lines as the service requires.

 

[Gareth Marston]

How are we going to measure as success or not of what the WG will announce as the greatest thing since sliced bread?

Complete replacement of the current long distance fleet combined with greatly increased frequency across the franchise?
Or simply the end of 2 car DMU's operating services into Manchester/Birmingham/Cardiff?

 

[Dai Corner]

How are we going to measure as success or not of what the WG will announce as the greatest thing since sliced bread?

Complete replacement of the current long distance fleet combined with greatly increased frequency across the franchise?
Or simply the end of 2 car DMU's operating services into Manchester/Birmingham/Cardiff?

How about a PMR TSI compliant fleet by 1 January 2020?

 

[gareth950]

How about a PMR TSI compliant fleet by 1 January 2020?

We'll be lucky to even get that.