Wales & Borders Franchise Consultation

[PHILIPE]

Any clues yet as to what will happen to the 175s once the new franchise is up and running?

Probably the same as now

 

[Bletchleyite]

Lots of rumours flying around about rolling stock - I'm guessing that there are some very different solutions as just about everyone seems to have been approached by someone. Something old, something new, something borrowed...

Something, er, blue?

Thomas the Tank Engine

 

[craigybagel]

Any blue rolling stock coming off lease soon?

I can think of at least 2 fleets straight away that we've been linked with!

But yes, the truth is nobody has a clue right now what is going to happen. Within ATW we all have our own thoughts on what we'd like to happen (and personally, I'd love for us to keep the 175s, albeit with a refurbishment, and with them supplemented by other stock) but for now, it's all just guess work.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Does anyone reckon there will be a blanket single TfW brand for all transport like coaches, buses and trains were once all branded "National Express" or this may come with strands like NI's Translink operating NI Railways, Ulsterbus, Goldline and Enterprise therefore something like "TfW: Welsh Rail" for the railways, "TfW: Metro" for the South Wales commuter lines?

There is already a small amount of common branding on buses and trains in Wales. The 'Connecting Wales' 'logo' with the small arrow on the 158s and mark 3s is also on TrawsCymru buses.

Hope the trains are painted a bright red, white and green. I'm sure it's been done before

Like the old ValleyLines livery? As long as it is neatly done with a fairly dark green like that was then I agree with you, but the shade of green used on the TrawsCymru buses is too light to look smart. Many of the TrawsCymru buses also have some silver parts on the livery, which just doesn't go with the white in my opinion.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Words that were apparently retracted by a red faced Senior Abeilio Manager when he released what he had said: "when we are running the Wales and Border franchise"

 

[HH]

Words that were apparently retracted by a red faced Senior Abeilio Manager when he released what he had said: "when we are running the Wales and Border franchise"

He might be even more red-faced soon.

http://www.constructionenquirer.com...s-up-carillion-rail-projects-saving-700-jobs/

Amey are already bidding with Keolis, so that doesn't appear to leave Abellio anywhere to go within the timescales necessary.

 

[6Gman]

Something, er, blue?

Thomas the Tank Engine

It's Wales.

Would have to be Ivor the Engine.

Thomas can sodor off!

 

[gareth950]

Why haven't Abellio pulled out, or been kicked out yet? They know they haven't got a chance.
If by some farcical miracle, TfW awarded the franchise to Abellio, Keilos & Amey and MTR & Bam Nuttall would immediately take TfW to court, e.g. ICWC 2012.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Why haven't Abellio pulled out, or been kicked out yet? They know they haven't got a chance.
If by some farcical miracle, TfW awarded the franchise to Abellio, Keilos & Amey and MTR & Bam Nuttall would immediately take TfW to court, e.g. ICWC 2012.

I've worked on bids (not rail, and not in the UK) where the client decided to pick and mix from the bids - hardware from one lot and services from the other.
When you think about it, the franchise and metro are totally different projects.
It's still in the WG's gift to split them, or just award the franchise contract while still continuing the metro procurement exercise.
I'm not saying this will happen, but odder things have happened.
I've never thought the award would be a simple sign on the dotted line for a 15-year megabucks integrated franchise/metro project.

 

[Llanigraham]

Why haven't Abellio pulled out, or been kicked out yet? They know they haven't got a chance.
If by some farcical miracle, TfW awarded the franchise to Abellio, Keilos & Amey and MTR & Bam Nuttall would immediately take TfW to court, e.g. ICWC 2012.

Why should they pull or be kicked out? Just because a minor part of their contract is in Receivership does not preclude them from continuing.
And on exactly what grounds could the others take TfW to Court?

 

[gareth950]

Why should they pull or be kicked out? Just because a minor part of their contract is in Receivership does not preclude them from continuing.
And on exactly what grounds could the others take TfW to Court?

It's not a minor part though is it? TfW expressly required every TOC to also have a construction partner to design, build, operate & maintain the Core Valley Lines and wider Metro. Abellio have now lost their construction partner, whilst the other two bidders still have theirs.

In order for Abellio to win, either the Core VL will have to stay with NR (which wouldn't be a bad thing) or the whole process would need to be put on hold to allow Abellio to find a new construction partner and presumably submit a new bid. This will be seen as special treatment by the other bidders.

 

[HH]

It's not a minor part though is it? TfW expressly required every TOC to also have a construction partner to design, build, operate & maintain the Core Valley Lines and wider Metro. Abellio have now lost their construction partner, whilst the other two bidders still have theirs.

In order for Abellio to win, either the Core VL will have to stay with NR (which wouldn't be a bad thing) or the whole process would need to be put on hold to allow Abellio to find a new construction partner and presumably submit a new bid. This will be seen as special treatment by the other bidders.

Yes and further I'd say that the NR option is out politically. I'd think an announcement is imminent; the interesting thing is who will make it - will they jump or will they be pushed?

 

[Gareth Marston]

It's not a minor part though is it? TfW expressly required every TOC to also have a construction partner to design, build, operate & maintain the Core Valley Lines and wider Metro. Abellio have now lost their construction partner, whilst the other two bidders still have theirs.

In order for Abellio to win, either the Core VL will have to stay with NR (which wouldn't be a bad thing) or the whole process would need to be put on hold to allow Abellio to find a new construction partner and presumably submit a new bid. This will be seen as special treatment by the other bidders.

This will boil down to what was actually written into the clauses that the bidders signed up to, I have a hunch that the scenario of a Construction partner going into administration pre awarding of contract at tendering stage may not have been considered by Welsh Government which is why Abeilo are still "in"

 

[Dai Corner]

I can't find the reference now, but wasn't there an invitation to tender for railway infrastructure work from WG or TfW recently? I'm not sure whether this was before or after Carillion went into administration or how it fits into the bigger picture.

Edit: this is what I was thinking of. Its a framework for all sorts of civil engineering (including railways) so probably not in lieu of Carillion as Abellio's partner.

https://www.sell2wales.gov.wales/search/show/search_view.aspx?ID=FEB238782

 

[gareth950]

Yes and further I'd say that the NR option is out politically. I'd think an announcement is imminent; the interesting thing is who will make it - will they jump or will they be pushed?

Although the formal transfer of the Core Valley lines away from NR to Welsh Govt still has not been finalised.
The announcement was due this month, and this month is over next Wednesday.

 

[Llanigraham]

It's not a minor part though is it? TfW expressly required every TOC to also have a construction partner to design, build, operate & maintain the Core Valley Lines and wider Metro. Abellio have now lost their construction partner, whilst the other two bidders still have theirs.

In order for Abellio to win, either the Core VL will have to stay with NR (which wouldn't be a bad thing) or the whole process would need to be put on hold to allow Abellio to find a new construction partner and presumably submit a new bid. This will be seen as special treatment by the other bidders.

But you don't know what the arrangement between them was, major or minor, or whether there is another company taking over Carillion's element. Until that is known all is speculation.

 

[PaulHarding150]

Abellio have withdrawn from the process.

BBC - https://twitter.com/DeansOfCardiff/status/967057479266979840

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

Wow, this is massive news as I think lots of people believed rightly or wrongly they were the preferred, bidder.

This could have huge implications, but we will never know due to the continuing silence from Cardiff.

 

[XCTurbostar]

Hugely disappointing news. I was rather hoping that Abellio would win.

 

[PaulHarding150]

Statement from Abellio:

https://twitter.com/railfuturewales/status/967068964705787904

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-43169116


One of the three remaining bidders for the next Wales and Borders rail franchise has pulled out.

Abellio Rail Cymru (ARC) said it had been unable to overcome the collapse of its partner construction company, Carillion.

Its exit from the process leaves just MTR and KeolisAmey bidding to run the franchise, which will operate the South Wales Metro.

Existing franchisee Arriva dropped its bid last year.

The Wales and Borders franchise, which operates much of the country's railway network, will be awarded by the Welsh Government via new railway quango Transport for Wales for the first time this year.

• Rail bidder seeks Carillion replacement

In a statement Ken Skates, economy secretary, said the Dutch-owned company "has taken the regrettable decision to withdraw its bid having been unable to overcome the impact of Carillion's liquidation".

Mr Skates said Abellio had sought to secure some of Carillion Rail's "capacity" from the liquidator, but the decision to sell to another bidder left it unable to proceed.

Transport for Wales, the body set to award the devolved franchise, learned of Carillion's share price drop in July 2017 and raised this with the company, Mr Skates said.

"At this point ARC considered options but elected to stay with its consortium partner, Carillion," the economy secretary said.

"As a consequence Transport for Wales required independent financial guarantees by a bank for Carillion's performance."

"Transport for Wales has analysed the robustness and technical capability of the remaining bidders and are confident that they are both capable of providing a high quality solution that will enable us to transform rail services right across Wales," he added.

"We have two strong bidders remaining in the process and remain on target to award this exciting contract in May 2018 and to transform rail services in Wales and borders from October 2018."

 

[Rhydgaled]

Abellio have withdrawn from the process.

BBC - https://twitter.com/DeansOfCardiff/status/967057479266979840

So much for SARPA's newsletter 73 (Aug 2017) which stated (page 4) that the bidders were down to just Abellio and Arriva!

Oh dear; didn't Gareth post way back in this topic that MTR and Keolis appeared to be fairly clueless regarding the needs of rural Wales compared to Arriva and Abellio who seemed safer pairs of hands? And that MTR wanted to strip seats from the ValleyLines (ie. turning them over to 100% tram operation)? It seems we may have lost the two bidders that had better offerings; but I guess with the secrecy of the whole process we will never know.

 

[Dai Corner]

Carillion's railway interests were acquired by Amey, who are Keolis' bid partner, of course.

 

[XCTurbostar]

Carillion's railway interests were acquired by Amey, who are Keilos' bid partner, of course.

Not all of them.

 

[gareth950]

"Transport for Wales has analysed the robustness and technical capability of the remaining bidders and are confident that they are both capable of providing a high quality solution that will enable us to transform rail services right across Wales," he added.

"We have two strong bidders remaining in the process and remain on target to award this exciting contract in May 2018 and to transform rail services in Wales and borders from October 2018."

Ken Skates' ability to put positive spin on a bad news story never ceases to amaze me. I note he hasn't mentioned 'world class' in this statement, instead the contract is now 'exciting'. Still transformational though. For all the wrong reasons.

 

[gareth950]

So much for SARPA's newsletter 73 (Aug 2017) which stated (page 4) that the bidders were down to just Abellio and Arriva!

Oh dear; didn't Gareth post way back in this topic that MTR and Keolis appeared to be fairly clueless regarding the needs of rural Wales compared to Arriva and Abellio who seemed safer pairs of hands? And that MTR wanted to strip seats from the ValleyLines (ie. turning them over to 100% tram operation)? It seems we may have lost the two bidders that had better offerings; but I guess with the secrecy of the whole process we will never know.

It's not just MTR that want that. TfW, Welsh Govt and Ken Skates want it as well.

 

[Eccles1983]

Its now in farce territory.

Arriva bailing on one of the most profitable franchises should of set alarm bells off.

It's now full in basket case. God help me and all other poor souls who have to rely on the welsh goverment to sort this out. I have zero faith in them and pray that anothet TOC takes over the running of the english stations that are currently knackered by Cardiff.

You know its bad when you want northern to take over your line.

 

[squizzler]

The Railfuture tweet implies that they not in a position to proceed with the "contract letting process" but "remain very committed" to their bid, for whatever that's worth.

If they are out for good is there any opportunity for them to reveal their folded bid prior to completion of the process?

 

[gareth950]

The Railfuture tweet implies that they not in a position to proceed with the "contract letting process" but "remain very committed" to their bid, for whatever that's worth.

If they are out for good is there any opportunity for them to reveal their folded bid prior to completion of the process?

Unless they want to risk being shot by the WAG military police, I suspect not.

 

[WatcherZero]

Carillion's railway interests were acquired by Amey, who are Keolis' bid partner, of course.

Interesting that in their reason for surrendering the bid they say they were unable to secure Carillions assets from the Administrator suggesting they were bidding against Amey for them.

Edit: Abellios tweet confirms they were relying on their partner Aecom winning the auction for the assets.