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WCRC banned from running trains on the mainline from 18th Feb 2016 now rescinded

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craigybagel

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On the basis that the Stafford SPAD occurred in April 2012 and the RAIB report was issued in September 2013, that DCR are still operating on the mainline, then yes, they must have cleaned up their act in the eyes of the ORR!

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=89891

So it would appear. But you could argue that the circumstances that allowed Stafford to happen were far worse that WCRC's issues. At least the WCRC drivers involved in the recent incidents were qualified to actually drive a train.....
 

D1009

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So it would appear. But you could argue that the circumstances that allowed Stafford to happen were far worse that WCRC's issues. At least the WCRC drivers involved in the recent incidents were qualified to actually drive a train.....
Yes you could argue that, but DCR have satisfied the ORR, and WCRC hasn't.
 

ainsworth74

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DCR must've satisfied the ORR, as you hardly ever see anything in the press.

And nothing like the litany of failings that have dogged WCRC. One major incident and that seems to have been it which suggests they've cleaned up their act to the satisfaction of the ORR (and Network Rail for that matter as WCRCs downfall all got started when Network Rail LNE banned them from their metals).
 

BestWestern

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Was it not the case, though, that the individual involved in the DCR incident was a senior figure of some sort within the company? Much like West Coast, you have to wonder whether a person who has a vested interest in finances and profit is an appropriate figure to also be overseeing day to day operations, particularly aspects of safety compliance and associated costs. In the bus & coach or haulage industries, the rules of play are enforced by the Traffic Commissioners, who have the power to (and frequently do) take a range of measures against those who fail to comply. One such measure is to prevent unsatisfactory individuals from acting in certain roles which place them in charge of a company and it's operations. This action can be temporary or permanent. I do wonder why the railway appears far less able to act robustly and quickly in similar circumstances.
 

CosherB

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Posted on the West Coast Facebook page this morning.

It would appear from this letter to passengers from Vintage Trains that some WCR long term Stakeholders are no so optimistic:

Dear Friends and Passengers,

In the light of the ORR's prohibition notice served on WCRC (West Coast Railway Company) effective 18th February 2016, we are writing to advise you that we feel we have no option other than to cancel the following railtours:

The Red Dragon to Cardiff – 12th March 2016
The Cumbrian Explorer – 19th March 2016
The Moonraker – 9th April 2016.

Along with several other tour promoters, we have been solely reliant on WCRC to operate railtours on our behalf. The current situation has however caused us to engage in vigorous discussion with other train operating companies and results are currently extremely encouraging. Our aim is to have steam operations back up and running as soon as possible and our target is the Shakespeare Express season. Thereafter we plan to operate a modified steam programme into the Autumn and beyond. Prior to the Shakespeare season, we hope to run several diesel hauled charters to popular seaside destinations. As soon as we have confirmed dates and have full itineraries in place, we will notify you and invite you to travel with us.
If you have existing bookings on the above railtours, we can either:

Hold your booking & transfer you to an alternate railtour when the dates are available.
Offer you a credit note for use on any future Vintage Trains or Shakespeare Express trip.
Offer you a full refund.

Please Note: If you paid with a Gift Voucher or Credit Note, we will re-issue the voucher/notes valid for 12 months from todays date.

Please respond either via email to [email protected] or via post to the Vintage Trains booking office. We apologise for this inconvenience and share in your deep disapointment and frustration which this situation has undoubtably caused. We hope that this will not deter you from travelling with Vintage Trains when we resume operations in the near future.
 

EbbwJunction1

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Just a thought, but would Vintage Trains (or any other operator) have a case to claim against WCRC for not being able to run the trains that they'd planned to do?
 

ainsworth74

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I would suspect that would depend on the contractual arrangements between the two. It certainly seems possible that WCRC could be in breach of contract which might leave them open to claims for loss of revenue. But without actually seeing the arrangements between them I think it would be hard to do anything other than speculate.

Plus, it has to be considered that Vintage may not wish to permanently poison their relationship with WCRC.
 

Whistler40145

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I can see the situation occurring that WCRC no longer operates tours and could solely exist as a rolling stock and traction provider.
 

edwin_m

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but the same issues as pointed out by the ORR will still apply

Most of the specific issues only apply to main line operation under WCRC's SMS and with WCRC crews. As far as I recall the only one that didn't was the working conditions in Southall depot, which are more a matter for HSE than ORR. As far as I can see nobody is suggesting that the trains themselves are unsafe due to inadequate maintenance or similar reasons.

Therefore, in principle, WCRC could simply become a rolling stock provider. They would still need paperwork in place to demonstrate said adequacy of maintenance and for such things as vehicle acceptance of any modifications and split of responsibility between WCRC and the hirer to ensure that one party or the other undertakes all the necessary inspections. However, the wider concern about safety culture or the lack of it will probably remain even in this situation, unless perhaps the safety culture in maintenance is already dramatically better than that in the operation side of the business.
 

DarloRich

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Most of the specific issues only apply to main line operation under WCRC's SMS and with WCRC crews. As far as I recall the only one that didn't was the working conditions in Southall depot, which are more a matter for HSE than ORR. As far as I can see nobody is suggesting that the trains themselves are unsafe due to inadequate maintenance or similar reasons.

Therefore, in principle, WCRC could simply become a rolling stock provider. They would still need paperwork in place to demonstrate said adequacy of maintenance and for such things as vehicle acceptance of any modifications and split of responsibility between WCRC and the hirer to ensure that one party or the other undertakes all the necessary inspections. However, the wider concern about safety culture or the lack of it will probably remain even in this situation, unless perhaps the safety culture in maintenance is already dramatically better than that in the operation side of the business.

Agreed - they could provide stock without drivers - although, as you say, they will have to demonstrate a suitable safety culture in that part of the business.

Also would there be much of a market for stock? Without WCRC how many charters will there be?
 

furnessvale

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Agreed - they could provide stock without drivers - although, as you say, they will have to demonstrate a suitable safety culture in that part of the business.

Also would there be much of a market for stock? Without WCRC how many charters will there be?

Providing the stock is one thing. Finding a suitable company with a safety certificate to run that stock is quite another thing.
 

Lankyline

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Just an update off the ORR's website ref the court case, no pleas were submitted after the first hearing, which I take to be either from the company or the driver, the next hearing is scheduled for March 18 at Swindon Crown court.
 

edwin_m

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Providing the stock is one thing. Finding a suitable company with a safety certificate to run that stock is quite another thing.

If an existing train operator thought they could make a profit out of it then it would be relatively simple to extend their own Safety Management System to cover hired-in WCRC traction and rolling stock. Who ran the Scotsman special yesterday? 90% of the SMS would be unchanged with bits added relating to vacuum brakes and any other differences.
 

Whistler40145

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I can't see any TOC or ROSCO wanting to get involved with battered old Mark 1s and especially those Vacuum braked ones.

Does any operator except WCRC have locos with vacuum brakes?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I'm presuming yesterday's Flying Scotsman trip was operated by DB Schenker?
 

D1009

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Most of the WCRC coaching stock fleet is dual braked. There are many steam locos passed for the main line which are vacuum only, and currently no-one can operate them.
 

CosherB

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I can't see any TOC or ROSCO wanting to get involved with battered old Mark 1s and especially those Vacuum braked ones.

Does any operator except WCRC have locos with vacuum brakes?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I'm presuming yesterday's Flying Scotsman trip was operated by DB Schenker?

(1) I'd argue that some of WCRCs stock looks quite smart externally - far better than the Riviera stock used with the FS yesterday.

(2) WCRC also operates a significant number of air-con Mk2 stock, so not just "battered old Mark 1s".

Please keep to the facts and don't just pick out soundbites.
 

alexl92

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Can West Coast place their vacuum-braked locos on loan to Heritage lines pending the outcome of all this?
 

EbbwJunction1

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I would suspect that would depend on the contractual arrangements between the two. It certainly seems possible that WCRC could be in breach of contract which might leave them open to claims for loss of revenue. But without actually seeing the arrangements between them I think it would be hard to do anything other than speculate.

Plus, it has to be considered that Vintage may not wish to permanently poison their relationship with WCRC.

Ah, thank you.
 

QueensCurve

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Have you read the full 9 page letter, with things like WCRC did not have up to date route maps, had no idea if its crews had the necessary knowledge etc? No one knows, not even WCRC, if its crews were up to scratch or had access to the required information to perform the tasks competently. However the repeated safety failings despite previous enforcement action point towards both crews and management not being up to scratch collectively. Bear in mind one of the Tangmere crew is facing prosecution under HASAWA in Crown Court.

I have read the full 9 page letter. I noted that the problem was a management one in terms of not having systems to keep route learning material up to date rather than a specific criticism of drivers' route knowledge. And yes, the wouldn't know whether or not the drivers had the knowledge.

It is the repeated failures, even more surprising after the Wooten Bassett SPAD, that is very damming of WCRC's Safety Culture.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Yes they deserve sanctions as they have previously failed to rectify serious operational and supervisory shortcomings. But ...

I wish that they are able to rectify matters and return to safe operations as soon as possible. The more [safe] steam specials, the better.

Isn't that what we all want?

I think what we all want is a safe railway. If an operator can demonstrate that they are safe enough to run charter trains whether or not steam powered they may do so.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The ORR should have the powers to take over responsibility for running the company or having temporary powers so that a new management structure can be implemented.

Why would they want to do that were essential services were not affected?
 
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