Yes 172s as commuter DMUs and 195s as longer distance/rural DMUs makes sense. Although, whether they'd be able to release DMUs before the 2019 accessibility deadline is another question. It's also worth remembering Northern's franchise agreement includes a requirement to take on DMUs 'equivalent in quality and performance to 170s' post-2019.
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West Midlands Franchise ITT released by DfT
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Yes 172s as commuter DMUs and 195s as longer distance/rural DMUs makes sense. Although, whether they'd be able to release DMUs before the 2019 accessibility deadline is another question. It's also worth remembering Northern's franchise agreement includes a requirement to take on DMUs 'equivalent in quality and performance to 170s' post-2019.
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More effing DMUs?
Should be bi-modes.
Which LM routes are partly electrified?
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
It was more for future developments than for now, really, though being able to get the fug out of New St would be a benefit on its own.
It's Northern who *really have* bought the wrong thing.
A small order of trains identical to ones already being produced for another franchise would be more viable than a small order of a different design. Also CAF don't seem to mind 'small' orders - look at size of the TPE order from CAF.
As we don't know how many may be ordered or what routes they may be used on saying the 195s are wrong option is premature.
By 2030 all of the Sprinters (and 159s) should have been scrapped. Anyone who thinks they'll be enough electrification to scrap all those DMUs as well as allow for passenger growth without ordering new diesel trains isn't living in the real world. While I do think most passengers would prefer to see greener trains I also don't think most would be happy with something like a 25% fare rise to pay for the higher costs of bi-modes to run the first few miles on overheads.
Blindtraveler
Established Member
Is a 195s expected performance characteristics better than, equal to or less than 170s?
I've always maintained that the work LM ask their 170s to do is largely unsuitable, accept perhaps the Shrewsbury locals but anyone who has suffered 1 on a Hereford knows about it
I've always maintained that the work LM ask their 170s to do is largely unsuitable, accept perhaps the Shrewsbury locals but anyone who has suffered 1 on a Hereford knows about it
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I'd say they are well suited to a medium distance rural regional express service, the seating is quite nice and the window views good.
I imagine DfT are thinking along the lines of the additional trains should:
- Be 100mph capable
- Have 2+2 seating and tables
- Have air conditioning
- Have wi-fi (which the 170s transferring from Scotrail will be fitted with.)
And that the 170s are the cheapest option to meet that requirement if some are available.
Harbornite
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Bi-modes would be useful for Birmingham to Shrewsbury and Hereford services, both of which run under the wires for part of the journey.
I'm not sure how you get to 65 units given earlier you said:
- 40 units for Snow Hill
- a unit for Kenilworth
Making 41 units
Add in the three 150's and eight 153's and that's a total of 52.
assuming 45 units of 2 coaches each and 7 of three coaches and that's 111 new coaches, even assuming all the new units are three coaches long and that's 156 new coaches. The latter's a decent sized order the former is a bit on the small side.
If it were to be a like for like order plus 41 units for growth that would be between 210 coaches and 250 (ish, depending on the number of three coach versions). Which would still not be a large order (bearing in mind that the 22x's which are seen as a small set of units on the UK rail network have 505 coaches), although it would start to make the 195's start to be a more reasonable UK fleet with circa 350 to 400 coaches. That would be comparable to the circa 330 coaches which make up the class 170 fleets.
ChrisHogan
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Vehicles not units. Stakeholder briefing specifies a minimum of 137 additional diagrammed vehicles over the life of the franchise. My guesstimate is 48 electrics for Euston and 45 electrics for CrossCity/Walsall/Crewe via Stoke leaves 44 diesel vehicles. Remember these are diagrammed vehicles so add the maintenance requirement gives us 50 growth plus 6 150 replacements plus 8 153 replacements gives 64 diesel vehicles.
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
That's a lot of EMUs - 12 4-car units in fact - does that mean we finally get a complete end to 4-car operation, and an end to excessive 8-car peak operation? DMUs aside, sounds rather good. I assume they don't replace the 319s but supplement them? (Otherwise that's just 4 extras).
How many have TPE got again? They would be an obvious source.
How many have TPE got again? They would be an obvious source.
TPE have 40 carriages (10 x 350/4s) off-lease from late 2018. There's also 17 x 323s off-lease from 1st January 2019. However, I don't think we can presume there won't be any brand new EMUs for the next franchise given bidders were asked to come up with ways of improving long distance services - could a bidder have decided 397s would be ideal for Liverpool to Birmingham/Crewe to Euston and that the 350/2s can go off-lease?
ChrisHogan
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It's only my guessestimate but it would largely eliminate 8-car working in and out of Euston in the peaks; most of which are coded 'double-red' by the LM as passengers are standing more than 20 minutes. (See the poster on display at Euston). I would have thought that some, at least, would be needed for the December 2018 timetable upgrade and I think that rules out the ten 350/4s, at least initially.
ChrisHogan
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Both bidders are believed to be offering new high-spec EMUs for CrossCity to comply with the ITT requirement for a robust autumn leaffall service (page 48 of the Stakeholder Briefing).
Forgive me for being the cynic, but may I ask where you have heard these rumours. As a regular user of the Hereford Line I've accustomed to its dire service for perpetuity.
Sometimes I get the impression that some people may not quite appreciate that the electrification as you say only goes as far as Kings Norton. Indeed, it will soon reach Bromsgrove but only via the slow lines through Longbridge and Northfield. Perhaps I've falsely come to this conclusion but I can fully understand how people make think otherwise.
That would seem a good split between the classes. I'd be cautious about a homogeneous DMU fleet as the characteristics between the Snow Hill and Hereford/Shrewsbury services are rather different.
I'd argue that is predominately down to the woeful capacity compared to what is required. 2-car services are never going to be comfortable.
Forgive me for being the cynic, but may I ask where you have heard these rumours. As a regular user of the Hereford Line I've accustomed to its dire service for perpetuity.
Posted on wnxx (another forum which requires an account to see posts) but another user has since questioned the accuracy of them.
If the winner bidder has no long term requirement for 323s someone at Porterbrook will feel like an idiot.
ChrisHogan
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He can commiserate with the man at Angel who is paying for the 707s!
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
It would indeed be nice to see proper end-doored InterCity EMUs on those services.
Network Rail appear to have leaked that the next LM franchise will increase the size of their fleet by 137 carriages.
https://www.networkrailmediacentre....y-boost-with-more-trains-and-better-hs2-links
https://www.networkrailmediacentre....y-boost-with-more-trains-and-better-hs2-links
Just counted LM's current diesel fleet, and it comes to 135 carriages. Could we be looking at a complete diesel fleet replacement here? Maybe those rumoured Class 195s are real after all!
Hmm, well the 150s/153s can't soldier on forever, so I'd say at the very least they'll be replaced. That's 14 carriages, which leaves 121.
But would the rest of the order be diesel or electric I wonder.
No. If a 2 car train arrives a 2 car train departs that counts for 0 out of the 137 additional carriages. If they took on the 10 x 350/4s and released the 7 x 319s that would count as 12 of the 137 (the difference between the 40 incoming and the 28 outgoing.)
adrock1976
Established Member
Assuming that the figure of 137 is mainly based on 3 or 6 coach trains, I have worked out (albeit unscientifically) that 137 divided by 3 does not go.
However, assuming that there would be one 2 coach train, that figure is 135, which does divide by 3.
Perhaps may I dare say it, that 2 coach train could be the Class 230 which would be specially dedicated for the Coventry - Nuneaton shuttle?
Alternatively, there could be 3 and 6 coach trains totalling 123 coaches, with 6 lots of 2 coach trains. Obviously, the London Overground Class 172s will be dispensed with in the near future, however, they have a fleet of 8 Class 172s.
However, assuming that there would be one 2 coach train, that figure is 135, which does divide by 3.
Perhaps may I dare say it, that 2 coach train could be the Class 230 which would be specially dedicated for the Coventry - Nuneaton shuttle?
Alternatively, there could be 3 and 6 coach trains totalling 123 coaches, with 6 lots of 2 coach trains. Obviously, the London Overground Class 172s will be dispensed with in the near future, however, they have a fleet of 8 Class 172s.
Mordac
Established Member
The 230 has 3 coaches, though.
Why does the LM diesel fleet need replacing?
The 172s are only six years old and the 170s aren't much older.
They only need a few extra units to replace the 150s which I thought were going to be 153s.
They don't need any extra units for the extra Shrewsburys as the current stopper is usually a 2x 170s and is mostly empty.
If it was me I would take on the 172s from LO and Chiltern. Release a few 170s back to Chiltern for conversion to 168s.
You would end up as follows:
153s - Coventry- Nuneaton/Leamington, Blecthley-Bedford
170s - Shrewsbury - Birmingham, Hereford/Worcester-Birmingham
172s - Snowhill Lines
The 172s are only six years old and the 170s aren't much older.
They only need a few extra units to replace the 150s which I thought were going to be 153s.
They don't need any extra units for the extra Shrewsburys as the current stopper is usually a 2x 170s and is mostly empty.
If it was me I would take on the 172s from LO and Chiltern. Release a few 170s back to Chiltern for conversion to 168s.
You would end up as follows:
153s - Coventry- Nuneaton/Leamington, Blecthley-Bedford
170s - Shrewsbury - Birmingham, Hereford/Worcester-Birmingham
172s - Snowhill Lines
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
153s can't be 2019 compliant without losing too many seats.
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