West Yorkshire bus fares

[yorkie]

I was shocked recently, after missing the last train to Garforth, that the bus fare is more than the train fare!

I thought fares in West Yorkshire were meant to be cheap?

We asked the bus driver what is the fare to Garforth. If I recall correctly he said £2.80. Then, when seeing how shocked we were, asked "where in Garforth?" to which we replied "the railway station" so he then said £2.50.

I note the bus terminates at East Garforth station, and the ticket printed the destination as "Inverness Rd, Garforth" which is the location of East Garforth. So maybe the fare was £2.50 to anywhere in Garforth and the driver just made a mistake.

I was also shocked that the last train is as early as 2302, and the last bus 2321.

Perhaps this is a deliberate ploy to force party-goers to fork out for taxis, as 2300-2320 is too early for them to leave a night out in Leeds?

By the way, thanks to IanXC and 34D, who were consulted for advice when it became apparent the last train was going to be missed! We only just made the bus, and we only just made the fare, as we had to dash from a delayed train onto the bus, without time to visit a cash point, and only made it as it was late! But then buses are never on time, so I knew if it wasn't early, we'd make it

 

[tbtc]

I thought First had "zone" fares in Leeds (which means a big jump if you go over a boundary)?

Regardless, the train fares are heavily subsidised, the bus fares are commercial

 

[yorkie]

I thought First had "zone" fares in Leeds (which means a big jump if you go over a boundary)?

I am sure they do, but I would be surprised if it was really more expensive to go from Leeds - East Garforth compared to Leeds - Garforth, which is what he suggested. And, if it was more expensive, why issue the ticket all the way to East Garforth at the lower fare?

I know the local fare within Garforth is £1.10 as a woman boarded and said "a £1.10 please".

In York, they like to keep the boundaries and fares secret. I guess that's a First Group thing, so I suppose Leeds will be the same? A forum member tried asking them but they refused to reveal any information, so he had to make a lot of separate fare enquiries in order to figure it out. Some drivers overcharge passengers on evenings too.

Do they have to produce a fares table on demand, or is that a myth?

 

[34D]

Yes, a fares table has to be produced I believe.

First Leeds fares were 'simplified' a couple of years ago. £1.10 is short hop (a few stops) then there is 'longer hop' and 'hop across town'.

I don't think £2.50 is outrageous for a 10 mile journey personally (though for a group of 3 or 4, it is).

The last train east thru Garforth etc is ridiculous. Is a Blackpool-York train. Bradford Int 22:15, Leeds arr 22:40, Leeds dep 23:02.

It makes a night out in Halifax or Bradford virtually impossible.

 

[yorksrob]

I was also shocked that the last train is as early as 2302, and the last bus 2321.

Perhaps this is a deliberate ploy to force party-goers to fork out for taxis, as 2300-2320 is too early for them to leave a night out in Leeds?

Last train at 23:00 ! pure luxury compared to the Hallam line

In truth I've long since suspected some sort of grand conspiracy between Metro and the taxi magnates !

 

[Ivo]

Bus fares are usually more than train fares. It's mainly because they have a lower carrying capacity.

But the difference between peak and off-peak is far smaller, and they're usually far simpler to understand.

 

[Deerfold]

Bus fares in West Yorkshire used to be cheap.

There's been years of above inflation rises and the abolition of the maximum off-peak fare (30p in 1989 between 0930-1500 and after 1800 - and with many routes longer than now).

Metro don't seem to concentrate on night services as they see them as being for social rather than essential (tough if you want to use them to get to/from shift work).

Leeds used to have a network of 8 night routes two days a week. Halifax had 3, Bradford 1 and some in Huddersfield (4?) and Wakefield. In the late nineties the flat fare had reached £1.20.

There was a brief experiment in the late nineties with a Halifax-Bradford-Leeds night service (£1, £2 if you crossed Bradford).

There was minimal publicity for any of these services with the timetable for the Halifax services often not being on display at the Halifax Metro centre.

Most were withdrawn in the very early 2000s with a few Leeds services lasting longer, still with little to no publicity.

As for train services, there's been enormous improvements to frequencies in West Yorkshire but minimal improvements to late services.

 

[philjo]

Although obviously not in a PTE area I was taken aback when I had to pay £6.20 for a single on the bus from Grasmere to Windermere Station last month. My Advance single to Hertfordshire was less than 4 x the bus fare!

 

[Deerfold]

Although obviously not in a PTE area I was taken aback when I had to pay £6.20 for a single on the bus from Grasmere to Windermere Station last month. My Advance single to Hertfordshire was less than 4 x the bus fare!

I remember visiting Cumbria when I was 18. I was still half fare in West Yorkshire and used to paying 15p for my bus fare to school. I got a lift up to Pooley Bridge for a holiday with some friends. I came back by bus to Penrith and then train. The bus was £2.05 in 1992. I had to put my hand back in my pocket as the handful of change I'd pulled out wasn't enough.

 

[YorkshireBear]

£2.10 for 6 stops on buses in central Leeds which is disgraceful.

 

[gordonthemoron]

same in Liverpool, however the trains are much better than the buses there, whereas the new First double deckers in Leeds are pretty good

 

[radamfi]

To be honest, I was surprised that the successor companies to Metrobus ("The easier way from here to there in West Yorkshire") kept the maximum off-peak fare going for so long after deregulation in 1986. Sheffield, for example, famous for the 5p bus fare, had an immediate and huge fare rise on day 1 of deregulation. The Metro DayRover was also kept at a low level for quite a few years after deregulation, although bus validity outside the county to places like Rochdale and Burnley ceased.

Yorkie would probably have had a similar surprise in any other PTE area other than the West Midlands, where the maximum fare from NXWM is still only £2. In Greater Manchester, I don't even think you can get on a bus for less than £2 now on most routes. A trip over 2 miles you are probably looking at more like £3 and £4 is the price of a day ticket from First, which would be sold for a single trip of a few miles.

 

[Tomonthetrain]

£2 here max fare - Birmingham to Coventry is so cheap!

 

[Deerfold]

Sheffield, for example, famous for the 5p bus fare, had an immediate and huge fare rise on day 1 of deregulation.

Don't forget the 2p child fare...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Many bus companies have very expensive single fares - mine is just under 2 quid for the mile and a half into town. But for under 4 quid (4.80 peak) I could get a day ticket and (very slowly) do a return trip between Skipton and Leeds.

 

[radamfi]

But for under 4 quid (4.80 peak) I could get a day ticket and (very slowly) do a return trip between Skipton and Leeds.

It is fairly common now that it is worth getting a day ticket for a return or 2 single trips, as single fares have increased far more quickly than day tickets. In some cases, for example First in Greater Manchester, it is often worth getting a day ticket for just one trip.

 

[gordonthemoron]

and at the moment, if you buy a plusbus ticket from certain train websites, it's only £2 for a day ticket. Virgin do it certainly. I think it's just for June/July

 

[Oscar]

Bus fares are usually more than train fares. It's mainly because they have a lower carrying capacity.

This simplistic explanation seems somewhat surprising. The fact that costs of bus operation are obviously lower than the costs of running a train needs to be balanced with the lower carrying capacity and the fact that subsidies are only given to specific (normally rural, Sunday and evening) services rather than more generically in the case of the railways.

 

[Deerfold]

and at the moment, if you buy a plusbus ticket from certain train websites, it's only £2 for a day ticket. Virgin do it certainly. I think it's just for June/July

Yes - any TTL-powered website.

I had a little explore of the Southern sections of the Cambridge busway courtesy of this offer (and as I needed to travel between the station and town centre anyway very cheap),

 

[pemma]

I thought fares in West Yorkshire were meant to be cheap?

I don't think £2.50 is outrageous for a 10 mile journey personally (though for a group of 3 or 4, it is).

In Cheshire you're looking at something like £3-£4 single for a 10 mile journey so £2.50 sounds like a cheap fare to me.

 

[brompton rail]

Eh! I live between 4 and 5 miles from Doncaster Town Centre. First single fare is £2.50 and £4.60 Day Saver (Doncaster only). Kirk Sandall is a similar distance from Doncaster (don't know bus fare) but rail fare is 95p Anytime Single, £1.90 Anytime Day Return, and about £1.30 for off peak d/r. No station where I live, I'm afraid!

 

[radamfi]

Eh! I live between 4 and 5 miles from Doncaster Town Centre. First single fare is £2.50 and £4.60 Day Saver (Doncaster only). Kirk Sandall is a similar distance from Doncaster (don't know bus fare) but rail fare is 95p Anytime Single, £1.90 Anytime Day Return, and about £1.30 for off peak d/r. No station where I live, I'm afraid!

Kirk Sandall to Doncaster is £1.40 Anytime Single, £2 Anytime Day Return and £1.70 Off Peak Day Return without a railcard. Still very good for 4 miles and 9 chains. That is good value even compared to cheap places in mainland Europe like Belgium, and is an example of how much cheaper PTE fares can be compared to non-PTE fares. Actually £2.50 for a 4 miles bus ride is cheaper than most places in England outside London and the West Midlands.

 

[Condor7]

This has just appeared in the Yorkshire Evening Post today, with possible 30% reduction in fares......

http://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk/news/latest-news/top-stories/leeds-bus-fares-could-be-slashed-by-a-third-1-5815321

 

[transmanche]

This has just appeared in the Yorkshire Evening Post today, with possible 30% reduction in fares......

I'm a bit sceptical about the quality bus partnerships.

Up in Tyne & Wear, the bus companies have also suggested that they could offer cheaper fares and a multi-company bus pass if Nexus scrap plans for contracting and agree a quality bus partnership. If it makes commercial sense for them, why aren't they doing it already?

London-style contracting has proved to be a success. It still has competition, but moves it from the bus stop to the boardroom. Whilst for passengers it means not worrying about who operates a service, or what the fare will be - which encourages more bus use.

 

[tbtc]

I'm a bit sceptical about the quality bus partnerships.

Up in Tyne & Wear, the bus companies have also suggested that they could offer cheaper fares and a multi-company bus pass if Nexus scrap plans for contracting and agree a quality bus partnership. I it makes commercial sense for them, why aren't they doing it already?

Presumably doing it (without any official "partnership" in place) would be setting up a cartel and therefore in breach of "competition" laws?

The partnership in Sheffield is a great example of what can work - a weekly ticket on First buses in Sheffield was £18.50 this time last year but now we have a £17 weekly ticket valid on all operators whilst the First only ticket (and Stagecoach only ticket) came down to £11.

Obviously some Sheffielders still found minor things to complain about (because that's what they do best!), but it seems to have benefitted 99% of passengers.

 

[transmanche]

Presumably doing it (without any official "partnership" in place) would be setting up a cartel and therefore in breach of "competition" laws?

Possibly. But if they can do multi-operator, multi-mode tickets (e.g. Network One in T&W) without it being a 'cartel'; then I don't see why they can't do multi-operator, single-mode tickets.

The partnership in Sheffield is a great example of what can work - a weekly ticket on First buses in Sheffield was £18.50 this time last year but now we have a £17 weekly ticket valid on all operators whilst the First only ticket (and Stagecoach only ticket) came down to £11.

Well, that is good news. Perhaps I should be less sceptical!

But my instinct still tells me that London-style contracting is the best way forward.

 

[tbtc]

Possibly. But if they can do multi-operator, multi-mode tickets (e.g. Network One in T&W) without it being a 'cartel'; then I don't see why they can't do multi-operator, single-mode tickets

Is the Network One ticket organised by the PTE though?

(I don't know the answer)

my instinct still tells me that London-style contracting is the best way forward.

Ideally, but that relies on a lot of legislation to force companies to accept tenders (and not being able to just compete). A Quality Partnership, like in Sheffield, seems to offer some stability and co-ordination without the kind of radical changes that would need a lot of political will (and lawyers fees!).

 

[radamfi]

How many years of procrastinating must West Yorkshire go through before deciding once and for all whether to go down the QC or QP route? QCs seemed certain a couple of years ago but I always thought they would bottle it. However, it is probably fair to say that a QC is rather pointless if there is no proper funding. It is important for the whole country that the first authority to do a QC does it right. If a poorly funded QC ends up being not much better than the status quo, and costs more for the taxpayer, it could prevent other areas trying the same.

 

[transmanche]

Is the Network One ticket organised by the PTE though?

(I don't know the answer)

Neither do I. But their contact address is a Stagecoach bus garage, not the Nexus HQ.

 

[Deerfold]

Possibly. But if they can do multi-operator, multi-mode tickets (e.g. Network One in T&W) without it being a 'cartel'; then I don't see why they can't do multi-operator, single-mode tickets.

They can - West Yorkshire has the 1 day MetroDay and 2.25 day Weekender and Weekly, Monthly and Annual Bus-only Metrocards.

Manchester has similar tickets.

 

[YorkshireRider]

I was shocked recently, after missing the last train to Garforth, that the bus fare is more than the train fare!

I thought fares in West Yorkshire were meant to be cheap?

We asked the bus driver what is the fare to Garforth. If I recall correctly he said £2.80. Then, when seeing how shocked we were, asked "where in Garforth?" to which we replied "the railway station" so he then said £2.50.

I note the bus terminates at East Garforth station, and the ticket printed the destination as "Inverness Rd, Garforth" which is the location of East Garforth. So maybe the fare was £2.50 to anywhere in Garforth and the driver just made a mistake.

I was also shocked that the last train is as early as 2302, and the last bus 2321.

Perhaps this is a deliberate ploy to force party-goers to fork out for taxis, as 2300-2320 is too early for them to leave a night out in Leeds?

£2.80 is the peak time fare (before 0930 and between 1500-1800 mon-fri), £2.50 the off peak, maybe the driver was a bit tired and quoted the wrong fare. They did used to be a 921 nightrider service to Garforth via Cross gates which then ran on to Kippax and Swillington on thurs, fri and sat nights, last one left about 0220 I think but they were withdrawn due low useage.
Not really sure if the fare is worth it or not, nothing to compare it to, I guess its not too bad, although the route is a bit long and tedious on that 19, going via the Templegate and Colton estates.