Weymouth idling trains leave 'horrendous smell'

[PHILIPE]

Is it possible to leave them idling in the station, or to use an alternative stabling site in the area?

It would have to leave the station for that length of time to free up a platform

 

[Zoidberg]

From a laymans view I assume these big prime movers are designed to be running 16 hours a day so I guess they are just not designed for cold starts.

I was thinking that due to their size, of the crankshafts and their associated bearings, there would be proportionally more slackness when cold compared to car engines. And, so, proportionately more scope for wear until operating temperature is reached and the slackness taken up.

 

[Wolfie]

Yep 100hrs closer to a service from a cold start, which would be over a weeks revenue earning service (there or there about's) lost, instead of 5hrs idle plus fuel which is significantly cheaper.

Frankly in the current climate of enhanced concern about pollution that is the railway's problem. There will be a (justified in my view) outcry about the pollution which will require a solution. The status quo will not be acceptable for long...

That's me down for burning at the stake by the HST fan club lol
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Or they could just accept they live next to a railway which was there before them and deal with the train noise...

What about the fumes? The fact that most of the stock on the line has been electric for years doesn't help..

 

[Rich McLean]

Frankly in the current climate of enhanced concern about pollution that is the railway's problem. There will be a (justified in my view) outcry about the pollution which will require a solution. The status quo will not be acceptable for long...

That's me down for burning at the stake by the HST fan club lol
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What about the fumes? The fact that most of the stock on the line has been electric for years doesn't help..

Only other alternatives is to either install a shore supply for 1tpw (not straight forward), start them cold after 5 hours (and suffer the CDL and air con problems) or just run a unit robbed from elsewhere.

The latter is far more likely to happen unfortunately

 

[route:oxford]

Only other alternatives is to either install a shore supply for 1tpw (not straight forward), start them cold after 5 hours (and suffer the CDL and air con problems) or just run a unit robbed from elsewhere.

The latter is far more likely to happen unfortunately

What voltage and current does the shore supply deliver?

 

[dviner]

Or, plonk a big mobile diesel-powered generator there to act as a shore supply...

 

[dgl]

Or, plonk a big mobile diesel-powered generator there to act as a shore supply...

yeah, you could also attach train wheels to it and use the power it delvers to power some traction motors on it so that it can be moved without needing a separate locomotive, then how about (if powerful enough) getting say 2 of them, fit them with driving cabs and sandwich a few carriages between them, instant train. Then not only do you have a portable generator but some useful locomotives as well.

Or the simplest option, large croc clips and the 3rd rail for power.

 

[Zoidberg]

yeah, you could also attach train wheels to it and use the power it delvers to power some traction motors on it so that it can be moved without needing a separate locomotive, then how about (if powerful enough) getting say 2 of them, fit them with driving cabs and sandwich a few carriages between them, instant train. Then not only do you have a portable generator but some useful locomotives as well.

Or the simplest option, large croc clips and the 3rd rail for power.

I take it that a few micro USB phone chargers wouldn't help.

PS: That is not to minimise the inconvenience the residents are reported to be sufferring. I'd not like that sort of noise and fumes nuisance at the bottom of my garden.

 

[Andyh82]

Or they could just accept they live next to a railway which was there before them and deal with the train noise...

I wondered how long it would before someone said that.

 

[theageofthetra]

This is a problem on a far bigger scale in small city centre located ports when multiple cruise ships are in. Palermo is bad enough with the traffic but add 4 or more huge cruise ships even without main engines & the pollution is appalling. I believe there is going to be some sort of legislation put in place in some ports over this though the shore supply would have to be pretty substantial! There was a scheme being trialled in the US to hook up aircon/power/heat units at truck stops to stop them having to run engines at night to reduce noise & polution. These units also plugged into some sort of engine pre-heater system on the trucks so they didn't start from cold (given some of the winter temps a v good idea)

 

[455driver]

Do Weymouth sidings have a shore supply that the HSTs could be plugged into?

No, and they are quite expensive to install plus the fact that if you dont know what you are doing you can cause serious damage to the train or serious injury to yourself if you do it wrong, a 415V 3 phase supply needs to be treated with respect at all times.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Only other alternatives is to either install a shore supply for 1tpw (not straight forward), start them cold after 5 hours (and suffer the CDL and air con problems) or just run a unit robbed from elsewhere.

The latter is far more likely to happen unfortunately

That would be about 15 trains a year, not really cost effective.
If the CDL faults cant be fixed then its ECS back to depot, brilliant solution, not!

There are no units available that is why they run the HST! :roll:

 

[Jamesb1974]

Deleted

 

[455driver]

What voltage and current does the shore supply deliver?

415V 3 phase.

A HST engine only supplying hotel power will turn off one bank of cylinders to keep the other bank under a reasonable load (reducing the already low emissions ) and the computer will keep swapping banks to equalise the wear, it is all quite clever.
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Stop/start units are being fitted to many FOC locos now (although I've yet to drive one of ours with it actually turned on). Would a stop/start facility and maybe a small generator set/auxiliary power unit to provide the necessary power to the coaches, be feasible?

I ask as I can't see this issue going away. It's not the 1970's anymore, where stuff was left running for hours on end and no one complained.

Would the small gen set be able to supply enough power to keep the coaches and 2 power cars supplied produce more or less emissions than an MTU engine on hotel mode?

As for DBS (or whatevertheyarecalledthisweek) and their stop/start technology, it has been switched off after a couple of cases of the engine refusing to start and the train having to be rescued, the costs far outweighed the savings.

 

[Jamesb1974]

Deleted

 

[Rich McLean]

No, and they are quite expensive to install plus the fact that if you dont know what you are doing you can cause serious damage to the train or serious injury to yourself if you do it wrong, a 415V 3 phase supply needs to be treated with respect at all times.
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That would be about 15 trains a year, not really cost effective.
If the CDL faults cant be fixed then its ECS back to depot, brilliant solution, not!

There are no units available that is why they run the HST! :roll:

That was in response to someone that said that running an engine at Idle for 5 hours was not acceptable and that it was the railways problem to resolve.

Was just pointing out the only alternatives despite them not being viable.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Could a possible solution be to, rather than having to leave one engine idling for however many hours, run the set in service somewhere where it might be of use? Obviously that needs a crew, and there's unlikely to be any trips that would actually NEED a full HST set, but a return trip to Yeovil (Pen Mill or Junction) or Poole/Bournemouth wouldn't attract these negative headlines...

Of course it'd also need agreement from SWT and DfT, but it's a thought...

On the other hand, if any of these residents want to swap a few hours of HST noise and fumes for the 24/7 noise of a Tesco Extra loading bay, they can reach me by a PM. I'll even pay for their removal van!

 

[ScouserGirl]

Looking at the article, are they currently running HSTs to Weymouth (e.g. for summer specials)?

When I was there earlier this month the train I took from there was a 150 which was switched off until the doors were opened about 5 mins before departing.

Yes the Summer timetable and it's called the Weymouth Wizard it only runs on a Saturday though!

 

[DT611]

I wondered how long it would before someone said that.

But he is correct. It greats reading about nimbys whining and moaning over something that not only was there before their grand parents were born, but which they knew was there when they decided to live there. It's a railway, just because 1 type of train uses it most of the time does not mean others such as diesels won't from time to time. Pollution isn't nice but i'm afraid my sympathy meter is reading 0 on this one. The railway makes noise, it's time people were told to deal with it or sell up.

 

[455driver]

But he is correct. It greats reading about nimbys whining and moaning over something that not only was there before their grand parents were born, but which they knew was there when they decided to live there. It's a railway, just because 1 type of train uses it most of the time does not mean others such as diesels won't from time to time. Pollution isn't nice but i'm afraid my sympathy meter is reading 0 on this one. The railway makes noise, it's time people were told to deal with it or sell up.

But it is basically an all electric railway (except for maybe a dozen small diesel units a day) so I can understand why they are not very happy, in this case there is a fair chance some of the residents were there before the idling HSTs!

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Not sure why some are making this out to be such a big deal. The idea that the railway has been there a long time and the residents should just put up with it just won't fly. There are one or two places where there certainly used to be lineside signs instructing drivers to shut down engines after a certain period to avoid creating a noise/pollution nuisance. This was back in BR days so the railway has accepted it has a responsibility for a long time now.

The solution will require adjustments to the traincrew diagrams and running the train empty to somewhere more suitable. Exactly where is likely to depend on whether separate crews work the two legs and PASS one way, in which case they might just as well run all the way back to "The Marsh", or if one crew simply spends the layover in Weymouth, which might allow a shorter run to somewhere like Yeovil Junction. They might even have STP diagrams ready for this weekend.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

With the 442s being retired could one of the bogies with a 3rd rail pickup be installed on a HST coach - would there be enough room under the coach for the required equipment to convert 750V dc to whatever the onboard electrics need?

Would one option be to run it ECS to Bournemouth (SWT) depot where it could also be cleaned (and tanked if Bournemout depot has the equipment)?

 

[BestWestern]

Would one option be to run it ECS to Bournemouth (SWT) depot where it could also be cleaned (and tanked if Bournemout depot has the equipment)?

Highly unlikely to be cost effective (SWT aren't cheap!)

The CDL isn't a major issue, when the air drains on a set the bolts will release as a failsafe measure, but once the pressure comes back it's a simple case of locking them back up. The Guard of the evening run back to Bristol carries out a prep in the Jersey Siding, so a simple door test is all that would be needed were there to be no air.

As for the complaint, it is of course the railway's responsibility to minimise pollution and the residents are entitled to raise the issue if they so wish. About the best and most workable solution I would think would be to simply have a 'babysitting' turn whereby a Driver stays with the set and fires up the engines for brief bursts and set inervals to keep things to keep things going smoothly.

 

[Deepgreen]

But he is correct. It greats reading about nimbys whining and moaning over something that not only was there before their grand parents were born, but which they knew was there when they decided to live there. It's a railway, just because 1 type of train uses it most of the time does not mean others such as diesels won't from time to time. Pollution isn't nice but i'm afraid my sympathy meter is reading 0 on this one. The railway makes noise, it's time people were told to deal with it or sell up.

Why do people have to live with a type of train that seemingly needs to be left running for its entire life, wasting fuel, creating noise and fumes? It doesn't matter where it is happening, it is a nonsense. Diesel trains simply do not need to be left running constantly for hours on end. If that was the case, what would happen when they run out of fuel - the engine would stop - horror; the train is ruined and must be scrapped!

Reasonable and expected noise from passing trains is one thing; completely unnecessary disturbance because of poor design and/or lazy operating is another. It is similar to those road vehicle drivers who simply will not switch their engine off no matter for how long they are stopped, just idling away for absolutely no reason (and not in overly cold or hot weather, so no need for heating or air-con); just pumping out fumes and noise and wasting fuel because of laziness, selfishness, stupidity or paranoia about re-starting.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

With the 442s being retired could one of the bogies with a 3rd rail pickup be installed on a HST coach - would there be enough room under the coach for the required equipment to convert 750V dc to whatever the onboard electrics need?

Would one option be to run it ECS to Bournemouth (SWT) depot where it could also be cleaned (and tanked if Bournemout depot has the equipment)?

You're not suggesting a use for 442s or their components on the Weymouth route are you?!

 

[SpacePhoenix]

You're not suggesting a use for 442s or their components on the Weymouth route are you?!

If the CDL is not the problem with the HSTs then there's no need for them to have the bogies from the 442s

 

[DarloRich]

Why do people have to live with a type of train that seemingly needs to be left running for its entire life, wasting fuel, creating noise and fumes? It doesn't matter where it is happening, it is a nonsense. Diesel trains simply do not need to be left running constantly for hours on end. If that was the case, what would happen when they run out of fuel - the engine would stop - horror; the train is ruined and must be scrapped!

It seems you purposely overlook the points raised above because they don't back up your view. The train doesn't need to be left running however the owning company have clearly decided that the costs of fuel being wasted are less than the costs associated in more frequent repairs. They have decided they don't want to sacrifice 100 hours of engine life. That seems a fair business decision.

It also seems that if the train is turned off it might not be able to run in service so the customers of the company will suffer. Is that what you want?

Reasonable and expected noise from passing trains is one thing; completely unnecessary disturbance because of poor design and/or lazy operating is another. It is similar to those road vehicle drivers who simply will not switch their engine off no matter for how long they are stopped, just idling away for absolutely no reason (and not in overly cold or hot weather, so no need for heating or air-con); just pumping out fumes and noise and wasting fuel because of laziness, selfishness, stupidity or paranoia about re-starting.

Again you seem purposefully to be overlooking information presented. The obvious solution is to withdraw the extra train and offer the passengers a less good service. I guess you are happy with that. They might not be.

A workable solution needs to be found to keep as many people as possible happy - if the HST is to be used!

 

[Deepgreen]

It seems you purposely overlook the points raised above because they don't back up your view. The train doesn't need to be left running however the owning company have clearly decided that the costs of fuel being wasted are less than the costs associated in more frequent repairs. They have decided they don't want to sacrifice 100 hours of engine life. That seems a fair business decision.

It also seems that if the train is turned off it might not be able to run in service so the customers of the company will suffer. Is that what you want?






Again you seem purposefully to be overlooking information presented. The obvious solution is to withdraw the extra train and offer the passengers a less good service. I guess you are happy with that. They might not be.

A workable solution needs to be found to keep as many people as possible happy - if the HST is to be used!

Sorry - but I give up with you - virtually every post you write is seemingly deliberately designed to provoke argument and you appear to take every post from others as a personal attack. I simply do not believe that leaving a diesel engine running for five hours while stabled is acceptable. I also don't believe that switching it off would cause it to fail upon re-starting - what a ridiculous position to hold.

I will not respond to future posts from you - it's just too much hard work to keep up with your paranoia.

 

[Clip]

Sorry - but I give up with you - virtually every post you write is seemingly deliberately designed to provoke argument and you appear to take every post from others as a personal attack. I simply do not believe that leaving a diesel engine running for five hours while stabled is acceptable. I also don't believe that switching it off would cause it to fail upon re-starting - what a ridiculous position to hold.

.

You are going to have to back up your last sentence with some proper information on your knowledge of large engines in power cars like these before we can take you seriously - somethign I think 455Driver asked you too.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

At other stations where an HST will be standing for a while between services, do they have their engines shutdown?

 

[221129]

At other stations where an HST will be standing for a while between services, do they have their engines shutdown?

No. At Paddington the Powercar under the roof might be shutdown but the one outside is normally left on.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

No. At Paddington the Powercar under the roof might be shutdown but the one outside is normally left on.

Does it do any harm to the engine? Typically how long is it shutdown for?