What does a guard do ?

[badger1badger]

We all hear stories of lost revenue so really wondered what people's thoughts were .......

Between Leeds and Bramley there are no ticket checks and no fares collected.

Leeds and Burley park and beyond is often the same

Leeds and Wakefield West Gate on East Coast is the same but barriers at the station help

Any more you can think off


Yes the journeys are small but surely the guard can attempt to collect some fares instead of sat in the cab ?????

 

[yorkie]

Short answer:

For the avoidance of doubt, and for clarity, the term "Guard" applies to any person who is undertaking the duties associated with a Guard within the Rule Book..

I'm sure someone will be along shortly with a more detailed answer, though.

Collecting fares is an additional extra that commercial Guards (often referred to as conductors) do, but Guards duties take priority.

I'm unsure how you can be so sure that EC Guards do not check tickets between Leeds & Wakefield, given that the trains have 9 passenger coaches, and you can't be in all of them?
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There is also information available in the blog of a forum member:

There is an overview of my job as a Northern guard on my blog here ( http://mancguard.blogspot.co.uk/2013/03/so-what-does-conductor-do-then.html?m=1 )

So what does a conductor do then..?


The vast majority of the public see the role of the conductor as the person who comes bugging you for tickets, makes announcements and presses that little buzzer to start the train from a station.

But there is a little bit more to it than that.

Firstly it's worth pointing out that all areas are different and each train operating company (TOC) will have different rules and job roles!

In Manchester we have two different types of conductor. The smaller operators have the traditional conductor, the bigger express companies have 'Train managers'. Whatever we are branded in the main we all do the same role.

Our top three priorities in the main are the same though. In this order.

• Safety
• Performance and punctuality
• Revenue protection

....

 

[badger1badger]

But sat in the cab between stations doing what ?

 

[Clip]

Indeed revenue is low down on the list and as I dont know the area around Leeds to comment with full conviction I will just offer that if the stations are close together then door duties and such like must be performed above and beyond everythign. Just because a ticket is not checked does not mean the guard is not perfoming their duties.


Also their cuppa may be getting cold in the back cab

 

[badger1badger]

Collect a few Check a few not saying the whole train

Maybe .....

Indeed revenue is low down on the list and as I dont know the area around Leeds to comment with full conviction I will just offer that if the stations are close together then door duties and such like must be performed above and beyond everythign. Just because a ticket is not checked does not mean the guard is not perfoming their duties.


Also their cuppa may be getting cold in the back cab

 

[Anvil1984]

We all hear stories of lost revenue so really wondered what people's thoughts were .......

Between Leeds and Bramley there are no ticket checks and no fares collected.

Leeds and Burley park and beyond is often the same

Leeds and Wakefield West Gate on East Coast is the same but barriers at the station help

Any more you can think off


Yes the journeys are small but surely the guard can attempt to collect some fares instead of sat in the cab ?????

From Leeds to Burley Park theres often no point doing a check as the majority of passengers will have come through the barriers but other than you have 4 minutes to complete despatch (remaining by local door til end of the platform, make post departure and transec announcement, then how many tickets could be sold before you have to be at door panel to sell more tickets pushing past passengers who want to get off. I always found it more affective to wait until after Horsforth as you had mountains of time and you caught a load of passengers using Metrocards beyond Hlrsforth which you mightnt if you did it after Headingley.
Leeds to Bramley 7 minutes so possible to get some done but again passengers frkm Bramley to New Pudsey often blended in with the Leeds passengers often just as effective to do a check after New Pudsey. All depending on what units you have in a 158 it was easier than a 155 which was easier than a 150 due to door key switch positions.

Thanks for inferring Northern guards are lazy though its been a while

 

[455driver]

Thanks for inferring Northern guards are lazy though its been a while

Of course they are, they are rail staff and we are all lazy!

 

[Clip]

Collect a few Check a few not saying the whole train

Maybe .....

But they still have to make it to the back cab where the door controls are though. If there are only a few minutes between each station then it is never going to happen as this would delay the train.

 

[badger1badger]

Sorry guys I never meant that - it was all about revenue

 

[yorkie]

One guard in particular used to try his best to get a (off peak!) train checked by Headingley, where he'd finish at the front of the train and would open the doors and despatch from there, then walk back. However I believe the rules were later changed and this is no longer permitted.

 

[Anvil1984]

One guard in particular used to try his best to get a (off peak!) train checked by Headingley, where he'd finish at the front of the train and would open the doors and despatch from there, then walk back. However I believe the rules were later changed and this is no longer permitted.

Different people have different techniques. Early doors you'd get a lot of a Students getting on from Burley Park to Horsforth and getting them was a nightmare but off peak. It seemed easier to wait til after Horsforth because of the Metrocard situation (ECTS passholders trying to go to Harrogate etc) but no you can no longer despatch from the front, the middle seems safest due to platform curve)

 

[Delta558]

But sat in the cab between stations doing what ?

I think the correct term (at least, what I was taught) is 'observing the passage of trains'. If we're sat in the back, that's what we're supposed to be doing, in essence checking that all is okay with the lineside, that any trains passing us are correctly displaying tail-lamps and not showing signs of any problems. Cups of tea are definitely high on the priority list, especially if we've had to greet a lot of passengers in the last while (they might say hello once, we might have to a couple of hundred times) - the throat gets parched!
Tickets? Yes, I'll get to them and will do it properly (railcards, passes etc) but only when I feel it is safe to do so effectively, i.e. not rushing between stations, delaying either the train or passengers!

 

[Fincra5]

Its almost as if Guards are expected to be marching up and down that train all the time.. with Northern, and most TOCs the guard has to do full door control, so needs to be prepared...

AS mentioned earlier:

1st -Safety
2nd -Performance and punctuality
3rd - Revenue Collection and Customer Service.

 

[badger1badger]

I think the correct term (at least, what I was taught) is 'observing the passage of trains'. If we're sat in the back, that's what we're supposed to be doing, in essence checking that all is okay with the lineside, that any trains passing us are correctly displaying tail-lamps and not showing signs of any problems. Cups of tea are definitely high on the priority list, especially if we've had to greet a lot of passengers in the last while (they might say hello once, we might have to a couple of hundred times) - the throat gets parched!
Tickets? Yes, I'll get to them and will do it properly (railcards, passes etc) but only when I feel it is safe to do so effectively, i.e. not rushing between stations, delaying either the train or passengers!

Really a guards job is to check other trains - surely he is looking after his train ?
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Would it help if the driver could open the doors ?

Any thoughts

 

[Anvil1984]

Really a guards job is to check other trains - surely he is looking after his train ?
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Would it help if the driver could open the doors ?

Any thoughts

First thought is not another thread turned to discussing DOO. You wish the trains to thousands of piunds of modifications for the sake of a POTENTIAL £4 a journey tops
Second is even if driver opened the doors I woukd still not go down the train between Leeds and Burley Park / Bramley (if I still worked those lines) for the reasons mentionned earlier

 

[badger1badger]

I am confused by an earlier post of guards were employed to sit in the rear cab and watch out for other trains, tail lights etc

The train guard when he steps off to let passengers off turn and make a quick look at his / her own lights......
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First thought is not another thread turned to discussing DOO. You wish the trains to thousands of piunds of modifications for the sake of a POTENTIAL £4 a journey tops
Second is even if driver opened the doors I woukd still not go down the train between Leeds and Burley Park / Bramley (if I still worked those lines) for the reasons mentionned earlier

Is it not important to capture a few tickets a few is better than none -?

 

[Anvil1984]

I am confused by an earlier post of guards were employed to sit in the rear cab and watch out for other trains, tail lights etc

The train guard when he steps off to let passengers off turn and make a quick look at his / her own lights......
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Is it not important to capture a few tickets a few is better than none -?

No because leaving Leeds you woukd possibly get 1 ticket. You would never get a few and because youve made your way down the train catching that 1 possible £2.00 fare (after tbe rigmarole of where did you start your journey, how did you get through the barriers, can I see what your previous ticket was to find out the ticket you are selling is a zero fare excess) you miss the person on the Leeds to Burley Park ticket (to get through the barrier) travelling to Harrogate which would net a lot more.

Add to this the cost of retrofitting at least 200 units with drivers door control, the station monitors / mirrors. The cost of industrial action also. Do you think its worth it for 1 ticket
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As for the guards checking passing trains, the drivers check oncoming trains for headlights and guards check the passing trains tail lights which signify the train is complete.

 

[LowLevel]

If I'm sat in the rear cab I will generally check other trains for anything amiss, loading issues, smoke etc - particularly on freight trains and on older passenger trains there's nothing at all to tell the driver there's a problem. There's also been cases on newer trains fitted with on board computers of them not picking up things like fires that have started in slightly unusual places.

Also trespassers, any faults with the track, overheard line equipment etc. I also make phone calls to various other functions giving and receiving information, particularly delay reports. I certainly do stop for a quick drink and depending on the trip a bite to eat from time to time as well - I work some 3 hour + journeys where my only respite space is the rear cab.

Doing tickets is not always my priority. If I have passengers requiring extra assistance or an issue occurs, I'll disappear in to the back cab and deal with that and you won't see me. For example, the other day I was working a train without disabled toilet facilities and had to phone my driver (to keep him aware), the Network Rail signaller (to make sure he knew we would be hanging around to regulate traffic and didn't activate the level crossing immediately beyond the platform until he needed to) and my control (for general awareness and delay attribution) to arrange a toilet stop, which took a few minutes. It would have been inappropriate to do that in front of the public for the dignity of the disabled person and impossible in any case as I had to use the cab to cab to call the driver.

 

[Dieseldriver]

Really a guards job is to check other trains - surely he is looking after his train ?
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Would it help if the driver could open the doors ?

Any thoughts

Yes, every member of railway staff should naturally be checking other trains too as they pass.

 

[TDK]

The priorities are:

1. Safety of the train, passengers and self
2. Punctuality
3. revenue.

An example is if the stations are close together and by the guard issuing a ticket it may delay the train by 1 minute this is false economy as a 1 minute delay can cost in excess of £70 and just for a £1.80 ticket?

 

[plastictaffy]

Would it help if the driver could open the doors ?

Any thoughts

Yeah, I have thoughts.
It's hard enough at times to justify the Guard's job. Once the driver starts opening the doors, that's another little job that we no longer have to do. Then it's a short step to having the driver shut them, too. Then it's another short step to complete DOO. Then it's just a short walk to the Dole queue. I digress.......

Speaking of walking through trains, as you were.
I sign four types of traction, these being 150, 153, 321 and 350. Of these, only one (350) can have the doors operated from anywhere else as well as the cabs. Of the other three, they are almost exclusively used on short hops, such as Bedford-Bletchley in the case of the DMU's, and Tring and Milton Keynes terminators in the case of the 321's. There is rarely enough time to walk through 321's due to the short travel time between stops.
On the Bedford branch, that is classed as a "pay-train" and we are expected to walk through them. We also get commission on the tickets we sell on-board, so it's a nice little bonus for you if you walk trains and sell the odd ticket. Not all Guards get this commission, and not all get the amount we do, so they don't see the point of walking trains. Fair enough.
It's also worth remembering that a lot of the guys on the railways are old-school, and when they passed as Guards (which is what the job was actually called, unlike today) there were such things as Travelling Ticket Inspectors (I know, I've gone all surreal) whose job was to check tickets, issue UPFN's etc etc. So these old school Guards don't see that they should waste shoe leather walking trains. They see it that if the company was short-sighted enough to get rid of TTI's and lose money, that's the company's problem, not theirs.

 

[wanabedriver]

Yeah, I have thoughts.
It's hard enough at times to justify the Guard's job. Once the driver starts opening the doors, that's another little job that we no longer have to do. Then it's a short step to having the driver shut them, too. Then it's another short step to complete DOO. Then it's just a short walk to the Dole queue. I digress.......

Just look to London Overground who got rid of a load of guards last December.

 

[plastictaffy]

Just look to London Overground who got rid of a load of guards last December.

Indeed........
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Is it not important to capture a few tickets a few is better than none -?

You're not one of my managers, are you?? :roll: