What is so bad about voyagers ?

[All Line Rover]

I will be using Arriva Crosscountry.

Would first class help ?

From Glasgow to Newcastle, you are certain to have a pleasant and relaxing journey if travelling First Class.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I don't feel there as bad as what is made out on this forum. I am perfectly happy in standard class, get a reservation though, if it is full and you are stood in the vestibules that is when they are not nice.

 

[1018509]

5 carriages. I travel Bournemouth/Reading quite a bit and 5 carriages would be a blessing.

 

[172212]

Not on the journey I was on. It was a nightmare

5 carriages. I travel Bournemouth/Reading quite a bit and 5 carriages would be a blessing.

 

[CP165]

I quite like them. I love the acceleration and I've never really had a problem with a smelly toilet. Voyagers for me certainly do have 'a smell', but it's not necessarily a bad one.

Although having said that, I really don't like the interiors. It's just one massive piece of badly-fitted moulded plastic. Yuck.

I think they should have their whole interiors completely stripped out and then a brand new, much brighter interior fitted, but I doubt anybody will pay for that.

 

[sprinterguy]

I will be using Arriva Crosscountry.

Would first class help ?

Generally, first class fares on Crosscountry are extortionately expensive, and the first class service provision is relatively basic compared to a number of the major Intercity operators, so in my experience the ends rarelyt justify the means. However, I note that for your particular journey, Glasgow to Newcastle, that there are a large number of very reasonably priced first class fares available for travel in both the near and more distant future. I will also add though that the XC Scotland to the South West services generally use a greater number of five carriage units than four car ones, and passenger numbers and overcrowding north of Newcastle are rarely anywhere near as bad as they are through the Crosscountry core, so there should be no shortage of seats in standard class, particularly given that you are starting at the trains' origin. And finally, I'm having trouble understanding why you have opted to use the roundabout Crosscountry service via Carstairs when you could have a faster journey by travelling by Scotrail to Edinburgh and then East Coast to Newcastle, both of which utilise longer, more capacious trains (although only on certain trains as regards Scotrail) than the Voyagers!

Not all the problems with Voyagers that have been stated on this thread are apparent on just one service, and outside of their major foibles and design flaws they are quick and reliable trains. However, in my experience the majority of their stated flaws will manifest themselves during the course of a journey :roll:
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Not on the journey I was on. It was a nightmare

A nightmare, for the sake of a ten minute journey between International and Coventry? hock:

 

[Train Pilchard]

Having travelled Glasgow to Newcastle loads of times and often on Voyagers you'll be fine, they are very rarely busy departing Glasgow and even the Edinburgh to Newcastle route isn't too busy either.

I've never been crammed onto an XC one around Birmingham in the peak where they are mobbed but Glasgow to Newcastle and Glasgow/Edinburgh to Birmingham are absolutely fine on them.

 

[tsr]

My thoughts about Voyagers agree with several of the points on this thread so far.

I really do like:
- The speed/acceleration
- The disabling of the tilt mechanisms (tilting trains have been known to make my stomach, errr, violently ill)
- The noise of the engines
- The reservation system (it's neat when it works)

I'm neutral on:
- The general smell of the toilets, although I know there are nasty problems from time to time (or more often)
- Legroom (I'm slightly under 6ft tall)

I don't particularly like:
- The firmness of the seats themselves
- The lack of window seats in some places
- The wear and tear displayed in some units (particularly XC's)

I really don't like:
- The vibrations (but that might be a bit picky - it's either noise+vibrations or nothing, it seems)
- The bike racks in some that hold up your bike by the front wheel (not particularly good for my bike!)
- The lack of a proper buffet (even Virgin's Shop is not really very good - when will designers/TOCs learn?)

I'd love to see the seating and quality from the best of the HSTs, the electronics and engines from a Voyager, the bodywork from an Adelante and the interior layout of a 460 (but with the best of the Voyager legroom) all combined into a train for longish/medium range services, perhaps with the First Class facilities of a Pendolino and the lighting and ambience of an Electrostar. Hmmm. Hopefully that wouldn't look too much like Frankenstein's Express.

 

[156402]

Just been reading through this thread and it is now quite interesting to surmise the reasons for 'Voyager bashing'. Apologies to 142094 for using his list but that is best list of issues surrounding these units i've seen so far and when you actually realise why the problems exsist, its not the 'product' at fault:

1) Seats are too hard OPERATOR SPECIFIED
2) Windows don't line up with all seats OPERATOR SPECIFIED
3) Stink of crap
4) Lack of luggage space OPERATOR SPECIFIED
5) Designed to be like a plane on rails DUE TO INTERIOR SPEC BY OPERATOR
6) Claustrophobic. DUE TO INTERIOR SPEC BY OPERATOR

Clearly, number 3 is a train problem but all the main gripes are with what the inital operator specified.

A very comprehensive refurb along with extra coaches would solve most of the issues. Of course, this would not please those who dislike underfloor engines on long distance services, unless the talked about hybrid goes forward, making them dual mode.

One last thing to comtemplate, is I very rarely read of the same issues with Meridans!

Disregarding the fact that they are usually wedged and therefore require lengthening on most of their route:

1) Seats are too hard
2) Windows don't line up with all seats
3) Stink of crap
4) Lack of luggage space
5) Designed to be like a plane on rails
6) Claustrophobic.

I usually plan any journey by looking out for the XC HST, although when I did this last month and a Voyager turned up I wasn't impressed to say the least.

 

[CP165]

One last thing to comtemplate, is I very rarely read of the same issues with Meridans!

What are Meridians like? Both generally and in comparison to Voyagers? I've never been on one...

 

[Woody]

XC de-rated the engines on theirs, now good for just 700hp each.

Also the XC ones I use in the South West seem to have one engine switched off,official policy I was told to save fuel so not quite the pocket rockets they first were.I also remember a while back that changes were made to the Voyagers computer software which have adversely effected their excelleration compared to when new,probably to save fuel.Noise and vibration have always been an issue for me but luckily I can use FGWs HSTs for most of the journeys I make and only resort to Voyagers as a last resort.

 

[sprinterguy]

What are Meridians like? Both generally and in comparison to Voyagers? I've never been on one...

It is the general feeling, and I agree, that the Meridians are very much a positive development from the Voyagers that have successfuly mitigated many of the issues that the Voyagers continue to experience. It probably helps that the maximum journey length operated by Meridians is considerably shorter than that operated by Crosscountry's Voyagers as well.

 

[CompactDstrxion]

Train length is not an issue with Voyagers. They can be doubled. The problem is there aren't enough of them. Pantograph cars can't come soon enough though, Scotland-Birmingham via WCML in particular is a farcical situation which can't really be blamed on the Voyagers themselves.

Luggage space provision is poor. Also a rather baffling situation of a lot of luggage space in coach D (where the stupid bike hooks are) resulting in everyone with a fair amount of luggage piling in that coach and then adding to the congestion in the aisles and vestibules when they move down the train. And everyone who doesn't know about it moving to that coach when the TM announces where the space is, making the situation a lot worse than it should be.

Inexcusably inadequate catering on XC's Voyagers, but that's an operating decision.

Standard class seating configuration obviously designed to shoehorn as many seats in as possible for a train that is too short as a single unit, few tables (on XC) and a claustrophobic atmosphere results.

 

[172212]

Yeah it was. Just because I was on the train for ten minutes, take a step in my shows with heavy luggage, and it's not really an ideal situation...

Generally, first class fares on Crosscountry are extortionately expensive, and the first class service provision is relatively basic compared to a number of the major Intercity operators, so in my experience the ends rarelyt justify the means. However, I note that for your particular journey, Glasgow to Newcastle, that there are a large number of very reasonably priced first class fares available for travel in both the near and more distant future. I will also add though that the XC Scotland to the South West services generally use a greater number of five carriage units than four car ones, and passenger numbers and overcrowding north of Newcastle are rarely anywhere near as bad as they are through the Crosscountry core, so there should be no shortage of seats in standard class, particularly given that you are starting at the trains' origin. And finally, I'm having trouble understanding why you have opted to use the roundabout Crosscountry service via Carstairs when you could have a faster journey by travelling by Scotrail to Edinburgh and then East Coast to Newcastle, both of which utilise longer, more capacious trains (although only on certain trains as regards Scotrail) than the Voyagers!

Not all the problems with Voyagers that have been stated on this thread are apparent on just one service, and outside of their major foibles and design flaws they are quick and reliable trains. However, in my experience the majority of their stated flaws will manifest themselves during the course of a journey :roll:
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

A nightmare, for the sake of a ten minute journey between International and Coventry? hock:

 

[Temple Meads]

Voyagers are (in my opinion) nowhere near as bad as most enthusiasts (not just on this forum) make out, my only serious gripe is the lack of seating, with another 2 carriages Voyagers really would be a viable intercity train.

I actually find the seats very comfortable, the smell doesn't bother me, I like the engine sound, so actually, I do rather like Voyagers (give me a HST over one any day though )

 

[SprinterMan]

Also the XC ones I use in the South West seem to have one engine switched off,official policy I was told to save fuel so not quite the pocket rockets they first were.I also remember a while back that changes were made to the Voyagers computer software which have adversely effected their excelleration compared to when new,probably to save fuel.Noise and vibration have always been an issue for me but luckily I can use FGWs HSTs for most of the journeys I make and only resort to Voyagers as a last resort.

I didn't know that. Do they do this on all services? Is it kinda the same thing as TPX do with the Eco Mode 185s?

XC de-rated the engines on theirs, now good for just 700hp each.

Did they really?
I thought this was just a rumour that didn't happen in the end.


Adam

 

[47245]

I don't like the seats which I find uncomfortable over long distances and that there aren't enough carriages.
On the plus side the acceleration is impressive, especially when running paired up and some of the performances I've had have been impressive.
Give me a HST any day!

 

[Schnellzug]

Also the XC ones I use in the South West seem to have one engine switched off,official policy I was told to save fuel so not quite the pocket rockets they first were..

I can't say i've noticed that on ones to Bournemouth, and it's not as if there's any great gradients there that they'd need full power for.

 

[142094]

Just been reading through this thread and it is now quite interesting to surmise the reasons for 'Voyager bashing'. Apologies to 142094 for using his list but that is best list of issues surrounding these units i've seen so far and when you actually realise why the problems exsist, its not the 'product' at fault:

1) Seats are too hard OPERATOR SPECIFIED
2) Windows don't line up with all seats OPERATOR SPECIFIED
3) Stink of crap
4) Lack of luggage space OPERATOR SPECIFIED
5) Designed to be like a plane on rails DUE TO INTERIOR SPEC BY OPERATOR
6) Claustrophobic. DUE TO INTERIOR SPEC BY OPERATOR

Clearly, number 3 is a train problem but all the main gripes are with what the inital operator specified.

A very comprehensive refurb along with extra coaches would solve most of the issues. Of course, this would not please those who dislike underfloor engines on long distance services, unless the talked about hybrid goes forward, making them dual mode.

One last thing to comtemplate, is I very rarely read of the same issues with Meridans!

I can't remember who Virgin XC got in to design the Voyagers, although I'm sure he was originially in the airline industry. As you say, I don't have the same problems on a Meridian, although I do find them a bit claustrophobic. Unfortunate that EMT only use HSTs on Nottingham services and not Sheffields, apart from those odd ones that start/finish at Leeds.

 

[YorkshireRider]

Not familiar with this, how does it work ?

The seat reservations scroll along a digital display which is in the luggage rack above the seat.
However as others have said it is unlikley to be busy between Glasgow and Newcastle, it will almost certainly be a 5 car train on the Glasgow-Penzance route so ignore your reservation and head to coach B (the unreserved coach) and take a priority seat or even a table if you like. You are very unlikley to have anyone sat next to you then, so in that sense i would say no, first class is not worth it.

 

[Metroland]

I dislike them for the reasons given above, and have traveled on them a great deal. The main problem with them is the length, they are just too short for the core section and they always seem to be overcrowded.

The real joke is the 'speed improvements' introduced with operation Princess have almost evaporated because timetables have had to be padded out. The tilt has also been removed.

If they had built new non-tilt trains, or retained older stock, many of the luggage problems would not exist.

Cross country has always been a 'hand-me-down' franchise, and in BR days they would have no doubt got MK3s from the West coast main line. Chiltern's silver trains prove what excellent coaches these still are, and they could have been refurbished and hauled by class 67s.

For the same money as the Voyagers, the franchise could have easily electrified the core section (Exeter-Leeds/York and Reading to Coventry/Birmingham) and using class 87s/90s (instead of sending the former to Bulgaria) or eventually new electric locos had similar journey times to Operation Princess, with the flexibility off adding more coaches during busier eg Holidays times.

If you plug in the current electrification plans, we'd almost have a completely electrified 'intercity' service and cost reductions for the MML, Trans-Pennine, GWML schemes as the wires would partly have been up by now.

 

[Zoe]

For the same money as the Voyagers, the franchise could have easily electrified the core section (Exeter-Leeds/York and Reading to Coventry/Birmingham)

The core section of the network ends at Bristol not Exeter. Almost all services to Exeter continue to Plymouth so as discussed in another thread there wouldn't be much benefit in electrifying Bristol to Exeter unless you are going to start terminating a significant number of services at Exeter.

 

[WCMLaddict]

The single Voyager set is too short, there is no doubt, and the First Class is tiny as it is effectively just a half of the carriage. I haven't personally experienced the toilet smell inside the passenger part of carriage but they do often smell badly in the vestibule.

The only thing that I don't like about them is on the outside. Every time one of Voyagers turns up at Wigan NW there is this awful smell of what I can only assume is either hot/burnt clutch or brakes. I might be a tiny bit sensitive to it but I just hate this smell so badly and it kind of follows me for some time after. It is probably just me.

 

[Tracked]

When they've been fairly empty I've liked them, certainly on the ALR last year the Plymouth-Penzance stretch I did on a by-then deserted Voyager was really good, as was Doncaster-York via Leeds last easter on a doubled-up set.

Being quite empty there were seats where the toilet smell wasn't noticable, it's just that these are a rarity.

Have to say I've never found the Meridien's that bad in terms of overcrowding and smells, was on an East Midlands rover last month and got to go on quite a few of them. Got the occasional smell but maybe their shorter route gives them more chances to be emptied?

 

[Pen Mill]

You know, I've never found the Smelly Toilet Problem a problem, or it may be that I just don't find it objectionable. At any rate, i don't think i've ever found it worthy of complaint.

besides, I like rumbling and vibration under my seat. it's the sound of power! Particularly when it opens up sweeping through a station.

The smelly toilet problem is always there for me , I mean always.
I did Bristol-Manchester return last weekend and they can't seem to shift it.

Other than that , I found the seats comfortable (I'm 6 ft 1 ins).No porblem with the engine noiise.

I had a 5 car set both ways and there was bags of room.
Got the added bonus of a trip through Bescot yard on the way back !

 

[All Line Rover]

I retract my earlier comment about the electronic seating displays, seeing as I am sat on a Virgin Voyager to Chester and they aren't working. Nonetheless, this is still a pleasant journey even with only three Standard Class carriages (this is one of the few Virgin services where Coach D is First Class).

 

[chris89]

I Must be in the strange bunch on here as i rather like them.

I do mostly use VT's 221's most of the time though between Wolverhampton and Edinburgh and again on the return trip and most of the time i don't find them that bad.

Good Points:

Fast and Quick Accleration
Comfortable (Around 5ft 11"/ Just under 6ft)
Coach D Especially for VT ones :P
Tilts :P
Modern
Shop - Not Brillant but is suitable enough

Netural points.

Toliet smell really does range according to which unit. For the 221's only been on one where it has smelled. Compared to 390's which has happened a lot more (Also i like those)

Resevation System - For most people seem to be diffucult to read and can go down with no alternative system (Same for 390s)

Some Seats don't match up to the windows. (I seem to be lucky with Resevations)

Bad Points.

Luggage space
Can feel cramped especially when it gets busy (Normally at Crewe and Carlise)
Length - When busy and only using a single unit.
Starting to show ageing inside the units, and should go for renewale

I can see the issues that people have for the units as some of them are not the best to travel on as they are not always brillant to travel on.

I can not comment on 1st class on them as for VT only been on Pendo's for that.

A lot of the hatred that comes for the Voyager family seems to be from people who would rather have LHCS or HSTs back again. Although that is my own personal opioin on that though, as i myself would prefer faster and a safer train to travel in. For example the XC 220 that unfortently went through the head of Cows but didn't derail.

Chris

 

[Woody]

The core section of the network ends at Bristol not Exeter. Almost all services to Exeter continue to Plymouth so as discussed in another thread there wouldn't be much benefit in electrifying Bristol to Exeter unless you are going to start terminating a significant number of services at Exeter.

Zoe some would say you could still terminate the wires at Exeter and run Bi -mode Voyagers and HSTs beyond and then use say cascaded Bi-mode Meridians to replace the HSTs when Midlands main line is wired I suppose or you could simply wire up to Plymouth eventually but that option seems to be a bridge too far with the DFt at the moment.After all the Dfts South West radar effectively ends at Exeter which incidentally is the official limit of the Governments National strategic Transport Networks,ie regarded as essential to the countries economic wellbeing and therefore justifying major investment. Still it could be worse if passengers were met with the announcement on arrival at Exeter "This is Exeter,all change ,all change for connecting services to Plymouth and Penzance".

 

[Schnellzug]

Zoe some would say you could still terminate the wires at Exeter and run Bi -mode Voyagers and HSTs beyond and then use say cascaded Bi-mode Meridians to replace the HSTs when Midlands main line is wired I suppose or you could simply wire up to Plymouth eventually but that option seems to be a bridge too far with the DFt at the moment.After all the Dfts South West radar effectively ends at Exeter which incidentally is the official limit of the Governments National strategic Transport Networks,ie regarded as essential to the countries economic wellbeing and therefore justifying major investment. Still it could be worse if passengers were met with the announcement on arrival at Exeter "This is Exeter,all change ,all change for connecting services to Plymouth and Penzance".

All of which shows how pointless Government Strategic Plans are, doesn't it. That'd really go down well in Plymouth (home to a major naval dockyard and Strategic submarine repair facility, among other things). Anyway, the trouble with Electrification always is, it adds one more extremely expensive thing to go wrong (and, on some lines in particular, it goes wrong quite frequently) and you're dependent on an external source of supply, often a long way off.

 

[142094]

I dislike them for the reasons given above, and have traveled on them a great deal. The main problem with them is the length, they are just too short for the core section and they always seem to be overcrowded.

The real joke is the 'speed improvements' introduced with operation Princess have almost evaporated because timetables have had to be padded out. The tilt has also been removed.

If they had built new non-tilt trains, or retained older stock, many of the luggage problems would not exist.

Cross country has always been a 'hand-me-down' franchise, and in BR days they would have no doubt got MK3s from the West coast main line. Chiltern's silver trains prove what excellent coaches these still are, and they could have been refurbished and hauled by class 67s.

For the same money as the Voyagers, the franchise could have easily electrified the core section (Exeter-Leeds/York and Reading to Coventry/Birmingham) and using class 87s/90s (instead of sending the former to Bulgaria) or eventually new electric locos had similar journey times to Operation Princess, with the flexibility off adding more coaches during busier eg Holidays times.

If you plug in the current electrification plans, we'd almost have a completely electrified 'intercity' service and cost reductions for the MML, Trans-Pennine, GWML schemes as the wires would partly have been up by now.

I can remember the last days of the 47s between Newcastle and the SW, and when the Voyagers were introduced, it was proclaimed that services would be faster and twice as frequent - what they didn't say was the Voyagers were just about half the length/capacity as the former 47+ carriages.

What we really need is some sort of mkV coaching stock, which can be hauled by 67s or whatever. At least then you have the option of adding another carriage when demand is exceeded, unlike the Voyagers where all you can do is double up.