What silly clearance rules are in force?

[heart-of-wessex]

Hello all,

After yet another discussion with my fiancee about stuff, we got onto the discussion of Eurostars on the ECML. Now, when we saw the Flying Scotsman cab ride video, it stated that the bridge at Newcastle is not cleared for Eurostars as the coaches swing out and would take out a passing train....have they even tested this?? I thought with the Eurostars shorter coaches and articulated connections there wouldn't be much of a problem?
I wonder if this clearance ban has been lifted or still in force, which I guess would mean that if Eurostars are due to return to the ECML, it would be back to Leeds again...

Other ones I have heard of, though if they are not true or have a very good reason, I'd like to be corrected:

1. 153's to Portsmouth. I read that these are barred due to the step board modifications after they were split from 155s. However one did end up there by accident, and there has been 153s there since...is this ban lifted or in force irrelavent?

2. Pacers on 3rd rail. This has been bought up many of times on here, banned in the southern but all fine and well to run on the Mersey network! Many of 143s made it to and from Eastleigh without blowing up but as far as I am aware the ban is still there. One guard did tell me they won't go there as they fear the pacer will topple over on the tight curve at Northam....what utter trash, they make it round the tighter barry curve in one piece (maybe not everyone ears are in one piece though!)

3. Sheds not allowed to Sharpness. I remember the times when Sharpness branch was almost garunteed 37 or 20 loco hauled action, and maybe a 57 too, but then sometime ago I read on Freightmaster forum that all of a sudden class 66's could go down the branch, and sure enough the next few days saw a shed trundle off down the branch!

4. GC are allowed to run HST's to Bradford if they wish now, what was the problem in the first place? Clearance was apparently the issue but what have they changed? Or is it like the above scenario!

5. Turbos down the Avon Valley. These are apparently barred from this route down Trowbridge, but what is the issue? I don't think they are wider than class 180's which have been through this route many of times before.

6. Heart-of-Wales GM restriction. I remember when one tour was advertised for 66's to Llandrindod as 67s could not traverse this route...was it some axle load problem or something I seem to recall? Doesn't seem to stop RBC running a 67 down that route though!! Is this ban randomly lifted??

7. This might be a complete myth, but there was some random bar on the Dungness branch. As I was not actually on the UKR Dungness tour with the 66/73s, it was held near Ashford due to the issue that the 66 was not a DRS loco or something like that. I don't know what exactly happened as this is word of mouth gen, but I can't see this being true either that or some person at NR was having a fit??


Anyone else know of any clearance or route restrictions for locos that might not seem to add up as to why, or maybe a route is barred for xxx loco, but said xxx loco has been down that line anyway?



Cheers,

James.

 

[starrymarkb]

I believe the NSE ban much like the Scotrail one was for political reasons. NSE hung on to their DMU and DEMUs for another 10 years with some replaced by Turbos and others by infill Electrification

Other restrictions that have been overcome are Pacers on the Devon Metro -143s were restricted to a number of trips per week, but 142s were not restricted because there wern't any in the area to restrict (hence the import of 142s in 2007) Now NR have done a lot of work to the branches since so suspect that has been lifted.

 

[tempests1]

7. This might be a complete myth, but there was some random bar on the Dungness branch. As I was not actually on the UKR Dungness tour with the 66/73s, it was held near Ashford due to the issue that the 66 was not a DRS loco or something like that. I don't know what exactly happened as this is word of mouth gen, but I can't see this being true either that or some person at NR was having a fit??

I was on the Ness Monster Tour, & we were held for a good twenty minutes In a Loop outside of Ashford Station. The signaller did not allow to the tour to proceed until they had spoken to the NWR Route Controllers to make sure that the Dungeness Branch was cleared for Class 66 operation. I dont believe it was due to the loco not belonging to the right FOC but I stand to be corrected on this!. Odd considering DB Schenker had already sent a 66 down there in the recent past!:roll: It was a great tour highlight for me was the Class 73 on Diesel power into Marylebone.

 

[robertbishop]

I was on the Ness Monster Tour, & we were held for a good twenty minutes In a Loop outside of Ashford Station. The signaller did not allow to the tour to proceed until they had spoken to the NWR Route Controllers to make sure that the Dungeness Branch was cleared for Class 66 operation. I dont believe it was due to the loco not belonging to the right FOC but I stand to be corrected on this!. Odd considering DB Schenker had already sent a 66 down there in the recent past!:roll: It was a great tour highlight for me was the Class 73 on Diesel power into Marylebone.

I was on that too, ditto to all those points there, very strange that a problem arose then.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . . . it stated that the bridge at Newcastle is not cleared for Eurostars as the coaches swing out and would take out a passing train....have they even tested this??

It is true that there were 2 points on the ECML whose gauge did not provide adequate clearance for a Eurostar set. These were the southern approach to Newcastle's King Edward Bridge and the curve at the south of Morpeth. (I wouldn't like to assume that the clearances in Edinburgh are assured).

The curve and junction onto Newcastle's K.Ed.Bridge was re-aligned a few years ago, since when the linespeed has been raised. I am not aware that a Eurostar set has ever been taken through either of those curves (and would be surprised if it had).

 

[PinzaC55]

Isn't there a problem with the Eurostars requiring more juice than the substations north of York can provide?

 

[starrymarkb]

I know that because of their current draw that everything around Kings Cross was not allowed to draw power while a Eurostar Departed

 

[tbtc]

I'd like it if someone could tell me exactly where the clearance problems are with 180s around Birmingham (the oft used reason why they couldn't all just go to XC and sort out the crowding problem there)!

Pacers supposedly aren't allowed a few places (e.g. south of Chesterfield), which is odd when you consider how short their fifteen metre carriages are (so less "swing" than a 23m carriage)...

 

[ralphchadkirk]

I know that because of their current draw that everything around Kings Cross was not allowed to draw power while a Eurostar Departed

They sound like nightmare to run then. Bet EC were pleased when they got rid of them.

 

[tbtc]

Isn't there a problem with the Eurostars requiring more juice than the substations north of York can provide?

This is what I wonder about "clearances" - sometimes are they used as an excuse for either (1) not wanting to beef up the infrastructure (e.g. 91s not used on Skipton services for a long time) or (2) snobbery about "inferior" units (e.g. NSE Pacer ban) - the clearance may be fine, but is a convenient excuse used for banning types of traction

 

[tempests1]

This is what I wonder about "clearances" - sometimes are they used as an excuse for either (1) not wanting to beef up the infrastructure (e.g. 91s not used on Skipton services for a long time) or (2) snobbery about "inferior" units (e.g. NSE Pacer ban) - the clearance may be fine, but is a convenient excuse used for banning types of traction

Recently this year they sent a test train of class 91 + Mark 4's to Skipton. The test wasn't a success. The Airedale Valley Line was electrified on the cheap by BR in 1991. because of this the overhead electric cables on the line between Shipley and Skipton cannot support both local trains and high-speed electric services (due to the extra power needed by the locomotives). So I am afraid it's HST's for the time being. On bonus I suppose I am sure NSE/Southern TOC's were not snobs the 2EPB's etc etc were knackered when withdrawn (especially the Oxted/Hampshire DEMU's)

 

[PinzaC55]

This is what I wonder about "clearances" - sometimes are they used as an excuse for either (1) not wanting to beef up the infrastructure (e.g. 91s not used on Skipton services for a long time) or (2) snobbery about "inferior" units (e.g. NSE Pacer ban) - the clearance may be fine, but is a convenient excuse used for banning types of traction

t's all done on Cost/Benefit and rightly so since it will be the taxpayers who foot a large proportion of the bill. I think the rationale behind never running Eurostars north of York is that the overall rail journey Edinburgh to Paris isn't competitive with air travel so you might spend millions on beefing up substations and easing clearances but the net result may be that passengers who would have used 91 hauled services will use Eurostars instead and you'll attract little new custom.
Part of the problem with Pacers used to be that they didn't operate track circuits properly due to their light weight so I guess it may be that in certain places (Chesterfield?) this is still the case due to railhead conditions and the fact that on a relatively high speed main line you don't one of these old rattletraps holding up traffic? That was one of the reasons why the Newcastle-Darlington-Saltburn service was abandoned, to get Pacers off the ECML.

 

[northwichcat]

2. Pacers on 3rd rail. This has been bought up many of times on here, banned in the southern but all fine and well to run on the Mersey network!

Isn't the issue here First Great Western's management made an incorrect assumption that clearance couldn't be granted without actually applying for clearance or researching what happened in the North West?

One to add to the list:

Pacers banned from Clitheroe line because of conditions meaning a lower speed limit would need to be enforced for Pacer operation. However, on the Northwich corridor there is a 20mph speed limit in force over the Leftwich viaduct because of subsidence from salt mining in the area which Network Rail found could be raised to 50mph for 15xs, 175s and freight, yet Pacers remain on the line and a 20mph speed limit for all services.

 

[142094]

Are mkIVs actually banned from using the Durham Coast line as a diversionary route when dragged, due to either the OHLE on the Metro or platform remodelling at Sunderland? This keeps cropping up and I can never remember the right answer.

 

[swt_passenger]

Are mkIVs actually banned from using the Durham Coast line as a diversionary route when dragged, due to either the OHLE on the Metro or platform remodelling at Sunderland? This keeps cropping up and I can never remember the right answer.

They are cleared AFAICT, the online sectional appendix shows that the only prerequisite is that the Cl 91 pan must be 'locked down'. Someone posted elsewhere that this is the normal condition if being dragged off the (25kV) wires anyway.

 

[The Planner]

I'd like it if someone could tell me exactly where the clearance problems are with 180s around Birmingham (the oft used reason why they couldn't all just go to XC and sort out the crowding problem there)!

Tunnels from Proof House to the station is the story I was told.

 

[heart-of-wessex]

Was the power problem sorted for Eurostar's or did they have to hold everything at the cross when a Eurostar departed right until the end of 373 operations?

I am wondering why they were a problem really, surely pulling away on notch 2 or whatever didn't draw all the juice, I could understand if they pulled away on full power, or am I missing something? (Sorry just I don't know the technical bits!)

 

[142094]

They are cleared AFAICT, the online sectional appendix shows that the only prerequisite is that the Cl 91 pan must be 'locked down'. Someone posted elsewhere that this is the normal condition if being dragged off the (25kV) wires anyway.

That's what I was told last time but some people still insist that they are banned.

 

[PinzaC55]

That's what I was told last time but some people still insist that they are banned.

If 91 powered trains have to be dragged via Sunderland they will need Pilot Guards unless EC give their Guards route knowledge which I think it's unlike they will do.If those guards don't work a train over the route for 6 months they need a Route Refresher.

 

[scotsman]

If 91 powered trains have to be dragged via Sunderland they will need Pilot Guards unless EC give their Guards route knowledge which I think it's unlike they will do.If those guards don't work a train over the route for 6 months they need a Route Refresher.

Pilot Drivers too!

 

[BestWestern]

On the issue of Class 153's, they are permitted to operate as far as Southampton Central, which they do frequently, but cannot run from there to Portsmouth. This is indeed due to clearance issues which I believe does relate to the crew steps at the 'new' cab end. One was erronously taken to Portsmouth in service on the rear of another unit some time ago, and my understanding is that the offending crew steps were removed prior to it's empty return run, which was carried out at reduced speed. So I would imagine that the restriction on these is still in force.

 

[plannerman]

I'm pretty sure class 90's are banned from the North Wales coast - didn't stop one visiting Llandudno Junction once

 

[Whistler40145]

Why isn't 40145 allowed round Upperby Curve, but no problem with Lifford Curve?

Why is Network Rail so cautious in letting 40145 on the former Southern Region, when in BR days 40s turned up at rare locations, such as Basingstoke, Southampton etc, surely the track layouts haven't changed so much since 40122 on it's farewell tour programme?

 

[sprinterguy]

Tunnels from Proof House to the station is the story I was told.

Surely not. At least one Adelante has been through there, in 2009.

 

[northwichcat]

On the issue of Class 153's, they are permitted to operate as far as Southampton Central, which they do frequently, but cannot run from there to Portsmouth. This is indeed due to clearance issues which I believe does relate to the crew steps at the 'new' cab end. One was erronously taken to Portsmouth in service on the rear of another unit some time ago, and my understanding is that the offending crew steps were removed prior to it's empty return run, which was carried out at reduced speed. So I would imagine that the restriction on these is still in force.

There are lines that 153s aren't cleared from because they would scrap against platform edges. 153s, like Pacers, are also banned from some of the steeper routes due to a lack of power and the risk of the train going backwards.

 

[Old Timer]

Tunnels from Proof House to the station is the story I was told.

There are some very real problems with the approach to Birmingham New St, especially in the New St south tunnels area, where for example on the Stour lines, the clearance to the tunnel walls is substandard.

The constrained throat at each end makes a proper engineering solution very complex and convoluted. For example sorting out the Stour Tunnel would require a whole renewal and track realignment programme right out to Proof House Jct and beyond.

The absurd desire to run trains 24/7 rules any sort of solution out, and until everyone (NR and the TOCs) grab the nettle, here as well as elsewhere, nothing is going to be resolved.

Whilst to the untrained, some gauging restrictions may appear "Silly" it has to be realised that people within the Infrastructure world do not sit down to try to think up ways of spoiling the spotter's world by restricting trains unnecessarily.

 

[headshot119]

I'm pretty sure class 90's are banned from the North Wales coast - didn't stop one visiting Llandudno Junction once

Apparently so on both accounts. However theoretically at least the 90s are cleared everywhere a 390 is.

 

[steamybrian]

When the South Croydon- East Grinstead line was electrified in 1987 the class 203 (Hastings Diesel units) were prohibited for working passenger trains through Oxted Tunnel due to tight clearances. So when they occasionally worked Oxted- Uckfield services they had to run ECS from Croydon-Oxted and return.
We all know that that they were specially built with narrow bodies to travel through the originally restricted loading gauge Tonbridge-Hastings line which had sub-standard clearances.
That restriction still applies today but although the Uckfield line is now worked by class 171 Turbostars it does still prohibit the preserved class 203 unit no. 1001.
Curious that all electric multiple unit working to East Grinstead with both now withdrawn wider bodied slam stock and modern sliding stock are all permitted.??

 

[The Barlow Boy]

SteamyBrian the units that worked over the Grinstead lines were fitted with window bars (two horizontal ones) to prevent people sticking their heads out of the windows in the narrow tunnels. For some peculiar historical reason the Hastings units weren't. There is no problem with modern stock as it's not possible for anyone to stick their heads out of any windows.

 

[Kneedown]

5. Turbos down the Avon Valley. These are apparently barred from this route down Trowbridge, but what is the issue?

Cheers,

James.

I have to confess i've often wondered this. What part of a 165/166 is out of gauge to prohibit it from other parts of the network? Especially when you consider 365/325/465's have the same bodyshell and, jointly, operate over a fairly wide area of the network.