When is a Bus an "Old Bus" and what to do with it

[Titfield]

There appears to be a great deal of comment (from enthusiasts, staff and customers) that the buses they use are "old" "past their best" "worn out" or some other similar negative description. The implication being that as a result there is a disincentive for passengers to use them.

However these comments seem to commence well before the target replacement date or design life of a vehicle.

This begs the question should manufacturers actually try to design vehicles with a shorter design life, a lower purchase price and thus can be replaced sooner?

Does a thorough refurbishment (as described in the trade press or recently in an enthusiast magazine) actually enable the bus to meet customer expectations (ie attract no negative comments) until it reaches its replacement date or design life?

As a controversial comment as some negative comments seem to spring from the age of the vehicle (rather than its actual condition) should buses be registered with "ageless" registration marks? (I know some coach operators do this)

 

[BestWestern]

It was suggested a while ago in one of the publications that a senior manager, one of First's I think, thought that buses should be designed to have a similar lifespan to HGV tractor units (less than 10 years), with consequent lower purchase costs. Unfortunately this fails to grasp the complexity of buses, which is such that a vehicle intentionally built to last less than a decade would have to be of incredibly poor quality in order to be adequately cheaper than current offerings. It simply isn't an option, frankly.

The solution is well built, high quality vehicles and thorough refurbishment at appropriate times throughout a, say, 20 year life. That sounds a long time for a bus to be in service, but in practise there is absolutely no reason why it can't be achieved with the right approach to maintenance. Stagecoach tend to be good at well presented vehicles around that sort of age for example, on the other hand you have First who can make a 10 year old bus look as if it's done 25 years of hard labour. London operators have shifted in recent years to refurbs rather than replacement, as the cost of new acquiring new vehicles and challenges of cascading older ones have increased. Buses are used hard in London and TfL have exacting and very high standards, so if it can work there it can work everywhere else as well.

 

[radamfi]

When the industry flirted with van-derived minibuses in a big way in the 80s, it was accepted that they would need replacing every few years. The first generation of minibuses (Ford Transit, Dodge or Sherpas) ended up lasting longer than expected, about 5 years, before being replaced by bigger minibuses, typically Mercedes van conversions which lasted about twice as long.

 

[Eng274]

To the fickle travelling public, a bus is old when the rival company buys new ones.

Same as the railway, commuters complain that 158s are 'old' yet there are three classes of EMU and the 156s running around glasgow that are older. Maybe its the same perception now that 334 and 170 are turning spotty, and 380s have arrived looking shiny and new in Ayrshire.

 

[starrymarkb]

Some vehicles also look old when new - Most of East Lancs range did, especially the EL2000 which didn't compare well with the Pointer in terms of looks (and the Pointer wasn't exactly pretty)

 

[90sWereBetter]

I still think of R reg vehicles as being pretty new, despite the fact that they are actually 15/16 years old now.

When the DDA switchover to low floor buses is complete in a few years time, I imagine the average lifespan of buses will increase quite a bit, with more refurbs/refits.

 

[AndyHudds]

A deep clean on some of em wouldn't go amiss occasionally either. Some of Firsts buses are dire, even the Wright buses are starting to look a little shabby inside now in West Yorkshire. The ALX 400's are quite poor comfort and quality wise, but First have re-sprayed some on them here in Huddersfield, I know they are DDA compliant but they are a real dire ride and you can't always see the destination board in the dark or on a gloomy day like today.

 

[GearJammer]

When is a bus old?????
We have a saying for trucks..... its only new for the first day in service... then its a day 'old'.

As hinted to above, a vehicle will only be called old if its in poor condition... its actual age will have nothing to do with it, i bet if you done a first class restoration on a Mk1 Leyland National nobody would complain its old!

 

[jopsuk]

These days anything that isn't low-floor is most certainly "old"

 

[starrymarkb]

That's a good point. The public would class an R reg Pointer SLF as newer then an R plated Step Pointer (for a while Stagecoach SW had the last two step pointers off the production line)

 

[Deerfold]

I still think of R reg vehicles as being pretty new, despite the fact that they are actually 15/16 years old now.

When the DDA switchover to low floor buses is complete in a few years time, I imagine the average lifespan of buses will increase quite a bit, with more refurbs/refits.

That's certainly the reason so many TfL contracts have specified new buses - now that the entire fleet is low-floor (and money's a bit tighter) I believe most now invite prices for new or used vehicles.

 

[90sWereBetter]

That's certainly the reason so many TfL contracts have specified new buses - now that the entire fleet is low-floor (and money's a bit tighter) I believe most now invite prices for new or used vehicles.

I'd imagine the LEZ also caused more TFL contracts to specify new buses. That said, there's still some pre-2001 (aka before Euro3) buses running around in the capital (and no, that doesn't include the Routemasters )

 

[richw]

I think as long as they are kept clean and tidy and well maintained age is irrelevant. First Kernow have some N Reg Alexander Royale Volvo Olympian, that look very tidy, but have private plates and I genuinely didn't realise the age of them. I expected them to be around from year 2000, where in fact they are 1995.
Simple solution, whack a private plate on them and keep them looking clean, and the punters will never know.

 

[455driver]

A bus is old when the other passengers are getting on a newer one!

 

[34D]

I'd imagine the LEZ also caused more TFL contracts to specify new buses. That said, there's still some pre-2001 (aka before Euro3) buses running around in the capital (and no, that doesn't include the Routemasters )

They will, of course, have euro 4 emissions kit on them

 

[Blindtraveler]

These days anything that isn't low-floor is most certainly "old"

same could be said for early low floor stuff - theres some darts kicking about at FSE that were in 97 or 98 and were delivered at the same time as a ton of Olimpians, similarly Fife took a load of Alexander boddied MANs in 99 and all of the above are now definately past there best and by all accounts the MANs in particular are hard to maintain due to lack of spares.↲

they say that buses are ment to last X Time, but I wonder how some makers vehicles will in realitty last? Some of the ADL stuff around is in pritty poor nick at even 10 years old.

 

[90019]

they say that buses are ment to last X Time, but I wonder how some makers vehicles will in realitty last? Some of the ADL stuff around is in pritty poor nick at even 10 years old.

Some ADL buses are in pretty poor condition when they leave the factory.

 

[MCR247]

 

[david16]

Really hate moquette on plastic bus seats with no padding or next to no padding no matter what age they are.

The 52 reg Solars at First Scotland east are a disgrace. Really terrible buses they are. Nobody would wish to travel for 1 hour 20 each way on those 52 reg'ers on First Scotland East's X37 service. I remember the days when the X37 used to normally be a coach.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Interesting question. On my TrawsCambria / TrawsCymru topic, several have said that the Optare Tempo fleet (06 and 55 plate vehicles) are 'worn out'. Mechanically speaking, that may well be true. However, they actually feel newer to me than Richards Bros' 08-plate Enviro 200 which I had the misfortune to travel on when it was used vice one of the Tempos once or twice a few years ago. So, I'd say the opposite, buses should be designed for a longer lifespan than the 8 years those Tempos have had.

 

[34D]

Interesting question. On my TrawsCambria / TrawsCymru topic, several have said that the Optare Tempo fleet (06 and 55 plate vehicles) are 'worn out'. Mechanically speaking, that may well be true. However, they actually feel newer to me than Richards Bros' 08-plate Enviro 200 which I had the misfortune to travel on when it was used vice one of the Tempos once or twice a few years ago. So, I'd say the opposite, buses should be designed for a longer lifespan than the 8 years those Tempos have had.

Who do I speak to to buy these "worn out" tempos, please? Sounds like an opportunity for a bargain.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Who do I speak to to buy these "worn out" tempos, please? Sounds like an opportunity for a bargain.

Too late, I think they've all already been sold on (one is romoured to have had an engine failure on leaving the auction and the new operator has had to find a new engine I think), although I've been unable to find photos of two at their new homes.

In my view the supposed engine failure seems to be the only scrap of evidence supporting the 'they're too old' claim, since operators didn't seem to mind snapping them up. There were reports that two or three were offered to Lloyds Coaches / Express Motors for the Bangor - Aberystwyth service, but both operators refused. However it was also romoured that may have been down to not wanting to use the TrawsCymru livery.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Too late, I think they've all already been sold on (one is romoured to have had an engine failure on leaving the auction and the new operator has had to find a new engine I think), although I've been unable to find photos of two at their new homes.

In my view the supposed engine failure seems to be the only scrap of evidence supporting the 'they're too old' claim, since operators didn't seem to mind snapping them up. There were reports that two or three were offered to Lloyds Coaches / Express Motors for the Bangor - Aberystwyth service, but both operators refused. However it was also romoured that may have been down to not wanting to use the TrawsCymru livery.

Did you mean to contradict yourself? "The supposed engine failure seems to be the only scrap of evidence" and then admit that other operators didn't want to take them on.

There is a world of difference between running them on long distance services that are a long way from the home depot and then the potential of dealing with a failure (e.g. Lloyds dealing with a failure in Bangor??), as opposed to them trundling around Cheltenham for Marchants.

The fact is that on front line services, most vehicles will be retired from those duties after no more than 7 years. They will then be cascaded onto second tier services and then perhaps onto a more general pool of lower margin services, spares, schools etc.

I can fully understand why operators didn't want to take on some high mileage Tempos (which the X40 ones are) on long services away from their base. That said, I also understand the reason why some operators have decided to buy some relatively cheap vehicles that are DDA compliant for local service work.

 

[Stonesourscotty]

it is sad when Arriva Northwest's best buses are now trainers or soon to be Trainers i love the NC Bodied Scanias from when they were new at Skelmersdale they had great capacity and didn't really show their age even when withdrawn these are now p/r reg and are far better than anything they currently operate which is a shame.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

it is sad when Arriva Northwest's best buses are now trainers or soon to be Trainers i love the NC Bodied Scanias from when they were new at Skelmersdale they had great capacity and didn't really show their age even when withdrawn these are now p/r reg and are far better than anything they currently operate which is a shame.

That may be true but the same was said when Leyland Nationals appeared... If we didn't move with the times, we would running around in 1972 Bristol REs (though some might like that)

 

[Robertj21a]

it is sad when Arriva Northwest's best buses are now trainers or soon to be Trainers i love the NC Bodied Scanias from when they were new at Skelmersdale they had great capacity and didn't really show their age even when withdrawn these are now p/r reg and are far better than anything they currently operate which is a shame.

Well, what else do you do with a P-R reg bus that won't be DDA compliant ?

Robert

 

[Rhydgaled]

Did you mean to contradict yourself? "The supposed engine failure seems to be the only scrap of evidence" and then admit that other operators didn't want to take them on.

There is a world of difference between running them on long distance services that are a long way from the home depot and then the potential of dealing with a failure (e.g. Lloyds dealing with a failure in Bangor??), as opposed to them trundling around Cheltenham for Marchants.

The fact is that on front line services, most vehicles will be retired from those duties after no more than 7 years. They will then be cascaded onto second tier services and then perhaps onto a more general pool of lower margin services, spares, schools etc.

I can fully understand why operators didn't want to take on some high mileage Tempos (which the X40 ones are) on long services away from their base. That said, I also understand the reason why some operators have decided to buy some relatively cheap vehicles that are DDA compliant for local service work.

The one which apparently had an engine failure (YJ55BKO) now seems to be fixed and branded for Norfolk Green's X29 service. Don't know if that is classified as 'second tier' or not, and I don't know where Norfolk Green's depot(s) is/are.

I don't really mind either way because the point I'm making on this thread is that if a 7/8-year-old bus* has to be withdrawn or moved to shorter services then perhaps buses ought to be built with a longer lifespan in mind.

* that feels newer than one 3 years newer and is better specified for long distance journeys

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The one which apparently had an engine failure (YJ55BKO) now seems to be fixed and branded for Norfolk Green's X29 service. Don't know if that is classified as 'second tier' or not, and I don't know where Norfolk Green's depot(s) is/are.

I don't really mind either way because the point I'm making on this thread is that if a 7/8-year-old bus* has to be withdrawn or moved to shorter services then perhaps buses ought to be built with a longer lifespan in mind.

* that feels newer than one 3 years newer and is better specified for long distance journeys

Single deck vehicles are typically designed with a life of c.15 years, and are depreciated accordingly. However, I don't understand why you don't get why vehicles get cascaded. Any machine will get more unreliable in time as components wear out but also economics; many rural bus services won't justify the cost of new vehicles or the net book value.

NG X29 is, I believe, a lesser route. Main routes are the 505 and the 10/11.

 

[Rhydgaled]

I don't understand why you don't get why vehicles get cascaded. Any machine will get more unreliable in time as components wear out but also economics; many rural bus services won't justify the cost of new vehicles or the net book value.

Yes, I can understand why you cascade vehicles off front line duties if the components only built or maintained to last a short time. That doesn't always happen with Intercity rail vehicles though, some I assume building buses for a longer life and/or better maintenance would allow front-line service to continue for longer.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Yes, I can understand why you cascade vehicles off front line duties if the components only built or maintained to last a short time. That doesn't always happen with Intercity rail vehicles though, some I assume building buses for a longer life and/or better maintenance would allow front-line service to continue for longer.

Because a number of reasons. Not least the lack of pounding on poorly maintained roads and exposure to rock salt. Can't compare buses with trains.

What you're talking about is a trolleybus!