who shall I complain to?

[joke2711]

I've just managed to have a look at this thread. Its a shame London Midland have not said which company they have passed it onto... I assume it is Virgin. It implies to me that they have not read the complaint correctly, that it is the fact the booking office at Milton Keynes Central (which is managed by London Midland) charged the customer for the honest mistake.

I would therefore take this up with London Midland again, personally I would contact them by telephone and explain the oversight and ask them to look at the matteter again.

Looking at the Oyster journey history, it sounds like the card had been charged for 2 incompleate journeys 17.04 and 19.13 (the ones with "no touch in" and "no touch out") both on 12 May 2015. Have you contated Transport for London to have this adjusted and the correct amount charged. I hear that TfL are very good on thigs like that. I would certainly explain the circumstances to them.

Have you heard back from Virgin Trains yet?

Hi, LM say they have passed to Virgin but I have already written to them, have a case number and await a formal response.

Thanks for the TFL advice - thought that might have to be repaid by one of the operators concerned?

 

[gray1404]

Personally I would speak to TfL and just ask if they can adjust the amounts charged on the Oyster. Their helpline is still open now if you want to give them a call 0343 222 1234 . I would say I have "2 incompleate journeys", explain what happened and say that only 1 oyster journey was actually made. I would like to think they would do something like refund the 2 items charged on the oyster card and just charge for the single journey that was made one the correct train was boarded at Euston.

LM saying they have passed the matter onto Virgin does not take away the fact their their (London Midland) ticket office charged your friend for the ticket including the travelcard from Milton Keynes Central. Personally, I would be putting presure of them to refund this and ask for my case to be looked at again - by a Manager. They close at 1900 today. (this would be IN ADDITION to waiting for the reply from Virgin)

I would be looking for 3 outcomes if I was in your/your friends position:

1. TfL refunding/altering the imcompleate journeys on my Oyster card to reflect the 1 single journey actually made
2. hopefully getting a refund from London Midland for the ticket sold at Milton Keynes Central and their lack of understanding of the situation
3. compensation from Virgin Trains (perhaps in Rail Travel Voucher) for a member of their staff putting me on the wrong train and caising a delay to my journey.

As always, please report back to say how you got on.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I would certainly contact Transport for London promotly though regarding the incompleate journeys and the overcharging that has occured as a result of that. I had a situation with them recently and they said they can only view journey history for so many weeks so it made it difficult for them to help me.

In the end, in my case, they said they could not honour my refund so I had to ask for a Manager to get involved. In the Manager gave me a £20 BACs payment as a goodwill gesture to cover any "possible" overcharing that might have occured. It would have been a lot easier if they had have been able to see my journey history. It was my fault in all honesty for not contacting them sooner.

I'm sure in your friends case this will not be a problem as its still recent travel.

 

[reb0118]

......that it is the fact the booking office at Milton Keynes Central (which is managed by London Midland) charged the customer for the honest mistake.

Leaving aside the addition of the Travelcard to the fare, does a passenger have a right to "free" travel back to their origin if a "mistake" has arisen resulting in them arriving at the wrong destination?

Does it matter if the fault lies with a) the passenger, b) the TOC that would be supplying the transport back, or c) another TOC?

 

[najaB]

Leaving aside the addition of the Travelcard to the fare, does a passenger have a right to "free" travel back to their origin if a "mistake" has arisen resulting in them arriving at the wrong destination?

Do you mean like this recent thread?

 

[joke2711]

Personally I would speak to TfL and just ask if they can adjust the amounts charged on the Oyster. Their helpline is still open now if you want to give them a call 0343 222 1234 . I would say I have "2 incompleate journeys", explain what happened and say that only 1 oyster journey was actually made. I would like to think they would do something like refund the 2 items charged on the oyster card and just charge for the single journey that was made one the correct train was boarded at Euston.

LM saying they have passed the matter onto Virgin does not take away the fact their their (London Midland) ticket office charged your friend for the ticket including the travelcard from Milton Keynes Central. Personally, I would be putting presure of them to refund this and ask for my case to be looked at again - by a Manager. They close at 1900 today. (this would be IN ADDITION to waiting for the reply from Virgin)

I would be looking for 3 outcomes if I was in your/your friends position:

1. TfL refunding/altering the imcompleate journeys on my Oyster card to reflect the 1 single journey actually made
2. hopefully getting a refund from London Midland for the ticket sold at Milton Keynes Central and their lack of understanding of the situation
3. compensation from Virgin Trains (perhaps in Rail Travel Voucher) for a member of their staff putting me on the wrong train and caising a delay to my journey.

As always, please report back to say how you got on.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I would certainly contact Transport for London promotly though regarding the incompleate journeys and the overcharging that has occured as a result of that. I had a situation with them recently and they said they can only view journey history for so many weeks so it made it difficult for them to help me.

In the end, in my case, they said they could not honour my refund so I had to ask for a Manager to get involved. In the Manager gave me a £20 BACs payment as a goodwill gesture to cover any "possible" overcharing that might have occured. It would have been a lot easier if they had have been able to see my journey history. It was my fault in all honesty for not contacting them sooner.

I'm sure in your friends case this will not be a problem as its still recent travel.

Hi, have spoken to LM Customer Relations this morning and they have agreed to reopen the case although they are adamant that they were correct in charging for the journey as a passenger has to have a valid ticket. I did suggest that as my staff member had voluntarily approached the ticket office for assistance and explained that she had travelled from Euston on an Oyster Tap In, why hadn't they charged her for the journey to MKC as well. The only answer given was that the conductor on the train if they had walked through would have. I then went onto the ticket sold and they admit that this appears incorrect so I will have to wait and see what there next response brings.

Next stop TFL ....

J
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Hi - have spoke to TFL (Matthew) who I hope reads this forum ...
Very impressed, explained what has happened and they have refunded both journeys, no quibble or questions asked. As my colleague was sold a travelcard at MKC they there is no issue in the refund.
Thanks for the advice - one down, two to go!!

 

[gray1404]

I had an idea TfL would be very helpful. I've always found them to be excellent. So I am glad that they refunded both journeys.

That is right in fact that at the time LM told the ticket, it was incorrect to sell a travel card add on because it was clear your colleague would be using their oyster card (and had indeed tapped in already). I would stand by the view that he/she was put on the wrong train by a member of staff so it is not their fault. I am sure you will let us know on here what the reply from LM is.

I am surprised you have not heard anything back from Virgin yet, they are normally much quicker at sending out their standard word bank letters - maybe you'll actually get a detailed and personal reply. hehe

 

[fowler9]

Just as a bit of advice regarding making complaints (From a manager in a complaints department, none railway related). Be very clear about what it is you want as a resolution to your complaint. Understand that the act of making a complaint does not mean you will get what you want. Ask yourself if you need a detailed and personal written response or if simply discussing it over the phone and resolving the issue will suffice. My current case load is 32 complaints open, if every one of them wants a detailed and personal written response I will be completely out of action for probably well over a week, I am happy to do this but there will come a point where more staff are needed and this will be reflected in costs. Accept that sometimes the only answer to a complaint is that someone made a dogs dinner of their job and you will never find out what happened to that person or receive a detailed resume of what will happen to make sure no one makes a mistake again.

Oh yeah, and get a complaint reference number in case you sadly have to refer to it again in the future or take the matter further, ombudsman etc.

 

[joke2711]

Just a further update on this.

A very nice and personalised letter from Virgin apologising for their staff member error and a cheque enclosed for the cost of travel £71

TFL have credited the two oyster transactions that were recorded.

So just LM to reply who originally stated that this had nothing to do with them and passed the buck. Case has been reopened at my request and I await their further response.

 

[gray1404]

Excellent outcome from Virgin. Well done on getting a personalised letter from them. Are you happy with it though? I think it might be worth a phone call to LM tomorrow just to follow this up and see where they are up to with reviewing your case. It may prompt them into sending you the outcome...

 

[joke2711]

A further update on this ...

Yesterday another letter came from Virgin Trains with a cheque for £22 attached. I presume that this is in response to London Midland passing over the issue to Virgin and Virgin responding without looking at all the facts and what they have done previously.

So now all monies have been refunded but it would be pleasing to hear from London Midland about their actions and charging policy. This case is still open and will be followed up shortly.

 

[gray1404]

Great to see the update. So just to confirm, you opened a case with Virgin yourself and they responded with a cheque for the full value of the Liverpool to Euston ticket. When you first opened a case with London Midland, they passed it over to Virgin. So you have now heard back from Virgin following that (referal from LM) with a second cheque as refund for the ticket that had to be brought at MKC. However, you contacted LM again yourself asking them to look at the case again and are awaiting their reply.

Have I understood this all correctly?

If so, it will be very interesting to see what the full reply from LM is. Bear in mind too that if you are unhappy with their response you still have the option of taking it up with Transport Focus.

 

[joke2711]

Great to see the update. So just to confirm, you opened a case with Virgin yourself and they responded with a cheque for the full value of the Liverpool to Euston ticket. When you first opened a case with London Midland, they passed it over to Virgin. So you have now heard back from Virgin following that (referal from LM) with a second cheque as refund for the ticket that had to be brought at MKC. However, you contacted LM again yourself asking them to look at the case again and are awaiting their reply.

Have I understood this all correctly?

If so, it will be very interesting to see what the full reply from LM is. Bear in mind too that if you are unhappy with their response you still have the option of taking it up with Transport Focus.

That's about right .... I want to hear from LM for two reasons.

1) why did they sell the wrong ticket with a travelcard when it was blatantly obvious that the passenger had an oyster for her onward travel in London?

2) why did they not issue a PF on arrival at MKC when she reported the incident?

I am still slightly aggrieved that a passenger who through no fault of their own ends up at the wrong destination can be charged to get back to the point of departure to continue the journey correctly.

We will see what LM respond with ...

 

[gray1404]

I am glad that LM did not issue a PF and we do not want to encourage them to do such things either. A PF would have cost more then your friend ended up paying anyway and on top of that (£20 or twice the single fare, the greater of the 2), it would only have got them as far as Milton Keynes Central. They may or may not have then been required to get another ticket back to Euston. My understanding too is that when a passenger is clearly not a fault then a PF should not be issued. Issuing a PF would have been worse, in my view, then selling her the other ticket - which you have now received the refund for. Also, a PF can only be issued by an Authorised Collector and there may not have been such a person on duty at Milton Keynes on at day (and your friend went to the booking office which means the person they spoke to would not have been such a person and to get there they would have had to of come though the gateline already), even then if they had have meet an Authorised Collector he/she may not have (and I would like to have thought would not in the circumstances) issued a PF. They may have simply directed them to a train back to Euston or charged a normal fare - we'll never know. But, I say again, we certainly do not want to encourage LM to be dishing them out.

I am concerned about the length of time it is taking London Midland to look at your case again, this time hopefully by a Manager. In the case of LM it is normally their Customer Service Supervisor who reviews such things. Have they told you if it is in their inbox yet awaiting review or where it is up to in terms of a time scale. Given the amount of time that has lapsed and you have still not received a full reply from LM addressing your points that relate to their service failings, you are now within your rights to take the matter to Transport Focus. However, I do understand that you may want to wait to hear back from them first so that you still have that option up your sleeve should you remain unhappy with their reply.

 

[Urban Gateline]

2) why did they not issue a PF on arrival at MKC when she reported the incident?

I am still slightly aggrieved that a passenger who through no fault of their own ends up at the wrong destination can be charged to get back to the point of departure to continue the journey correctly.

We will see what LM respond with ...

Not sure that is a good thing to wish for, the Penalty fare would have been £39.20 just for arriving at Milton Keynes with an Oyster card, and it would have been a valid penalty fare. Then on top of this the passenger in question would still have to have bought a single ticket to get back to London Euston.

What this all comes down to is the VT member of staff who gave out incorrect information, and VT seem to have addressed that suitably so I'm not sure what you want from LM as they were really just the unfortunate middle men to get involved with this!

 

[gray1404]

I think he's wondered why London Midland sold the ticket they did (the one that included the travel card) and also why they didn't allow the passenger just to get back on a train to Euston as they'd been put on the wrong train by a rail member of staff.

 

[yorkie]

Not sure that is a good thing to wish for, the Penalty fare would have been £39.20 just for arriving at Milton Keynes with an Oyster card, and it would have been a valid penalty fare.

I disagree, and I think this covers it
https://www.ircas.co.uk/docs/SRA%20-%20Penalty%20Fare%20Rules%202002.pdf

7.3 An authorised collector must not charge a penalty fare under rule 6.2 if any of the following circumstances applied at the station where the person joined the relevant train..

d A person acting, or appearing to act, on behalf of the operator of that train or station indicated that the person was, or people generally were, allowed to board that train...​

Then on top of this the passenger in question would still have to have bought a single ticket to get back to London Euston.

LM could have authorised travel back to London.

What this all comes down to is the VT member of staff who gave out incorrect information, and VT seem to have addressed that suitably so I'm not sure what you want from LM as they were really just the unfortunate middle men to get involved with this!

Yes VT staff caused the initial problem but LM didn't represent the railway industry very well in this case.

 

[Urban Gateline]

Telling someone a platform number or pointing them to a Train isn't giving them authority to travel though.

Of course in the name of good service it would have been great had the passenger been given discretion and just allowed to travel back for free, however that is at the discretion of staff and they can't be blamed for taking a tough stance as there are so many people trying to pull a fast one out there!

I still think the passenger in question got off lightly as the Penalty Fare plus extra ticket back to London would have cost a lot more than the Travelcard they were allowed to purchase!

 

[joke2711]

Telling someone a platform number or pointing them to a Train isn't giving them authority to travel though.

Of course in the name of good service it would have been great had the passenger been given discretion and just allowed to travel back for free, however that is at the discretion of staff and they can't be blamed for taking a tough stance as there are so many people trying to pull a fast one out there!

I still think the passenger in question got off lightly as the Penalty Fare plus extra ticket back to London would have cost a lot more than the Travelcard they were allowed to purchase!

without wanting to cause an argument.
how did the passenger get off lightly?
She was put on the wrong train, distressed and eventually arrived two hours late at her planned destination!

 

[Urban Gateline]

without wanting to cause an argument.
how did the passenger get off lightly?
She was put on the wrong train, distressed and eventually arrived two hours late at her planned destination!

As it could still have been a lot worse for her if she had been given a penalty fare and had to pay for a new ticket on top to make the Journey back, so there was some discretion shown by the staff at Milton Keynes Central!

 

[PermitToTravel]

But if all was as told then charging a PF would not have been legal. The further fare that was charged was correctly paid for by VT.

 

[gray1404]

Was any discretion shown at Milton Keynes at all? I think think maybe not because if there was no authorised collector then no one present could have issued a PF anyway. I dispute any suggestion that LM were lenient just because a PF was not issued. Even if they had have done, I am of the view that a PF would not have been valid anyway (For the reasons Yorkie has mentioned). It sounds like the passenger was given authority travel as the VT member of staff put her on the wrong train. I am totally positive there is NO WAY that member of staff would have done that on purpose and it was a mistake. However, I too agree that LM didn't represent the railway industry very well by not allowing travel back to Euston at no expense to the customer.

 

[plastictaffy]

Not sure that is a good thing to wish for, the Penalty fare would have been £39.20 just for arriving at Milton Keynes with an Oyster card, and it would have been a valid penalty fare. Then on top of this the passenger in question would still have to have bought a single ticket to get back to London Euston.

That's assuming that a) the ticket barrier at MKC was manned, b) that those manning said barrier are capable of doing a PF, and c) that LM actually even care about ticketless travel any more.

 

[joke2711]

I disagree, and I think this covers it
https://www.ircas.co.uk/docs/SRA%20-%20Penalty%20Fare%20Rules%202002.pdf

LM could have authorised travel back to London.

Yes VT staff caused the initial problem but LM didn't represent the railway industry very well in this case.

After chasing LM up on this I have received an email that really doesn't make much sense ... They admit that that Virgin had put the person on the wrong train to MKC which was a very unfortunate mistake but stand by the fact that they were correct to charge the passenger for a ticket back to London. They also fail to mention that an incorrect ticket was sold. What should I do ... go back to LM and try again ... or take elsewhere??

Thanks in advance ...

 

[Ritson]

Telling someone a platform number or pointing them to a Train isn't giving them authority to travel though.

Of course in the name of good service it would have been great had the passenger been given discretion and just allowed to travel back for free, however that is at the discretion of staff and they can't be blamed for taking a tough stance as there are so many people trying to pull a fast one out there!

I still think the passenger in question got off lightly as the Penalty Fare plus extra ticket back to London would have cost a lot more than the Travelcard they were allowed to purchase!

Maybe, but staff members are representatives of TOCs so one expects them to get their "advice" correct.

 

[gray1404]

After chasing LM up on this I have received an email that really doesn't make much sense ... They admit that that Virgin had put the person on the wrong train to MKC which was a very unfortunate mistake but stand by the fact that they were correct to charge the passenger for a ticket back to London. They also fail to mention that an incorrect ticket was sold. What should I do ... go back to LM and try again ... or take elsewhere??

Thanks in advance ...

I think it time for you to take this matter up with Transport Focus. When filling in the form I would focus on the failings of LM: 1. their lack of understanding of the situation at MKC. 2. selling the wrong ticket including the Travel card at MKC. 3. If they have admitted that the VT member of staff had put the person on the wrong train then they are agreeing that it was not the passengers fault, therefore the way they responded to it was wrong.

Here is the form: -
http://www.transportfocus.org.uk/contact/complaint

I doubt you will get any further joy out of London Midland now if you contact them directly so I would now go to TF, on the basis you've had them look at your complaint again already.

 

[joke2711]

I think it time for you to take this matter up with Transport Focus. When filling in the form I would focus on the failings of LM: 1. their lack of understanding of the situation at MKC. 2. selling the wrong ticket including the Travel card at MKC. 3. If they have admitted that the VT member of staff had put the person on the wrong train then they are agreeing that it was not the passengers fault, therefore the way they responded to it was wrong.

Here is the form: -
http://www.transportfocus.org.uk/contact/complaint

I doubt you will get any further joy out of London Midland now if you contact them directly so I would now go to TF, on the basis you've had them look at your complaint again already.

Thanks for this - will complete later ...
Again, will keep you updated!

 

[joke2711]

I have received an update from Transport focus today ...

Thank you for your emails regarding your complaint with London Midland. Please accept my apologies for responding to you.

I’m sorry to hear of the problems your colleague, had on her journey from Euston to Kilburn. I can certainly appreciate the frustration and inconvenience this must have caused her.

I can see from your email that on arrival into Euston, Virgin Trains staff directed her on to the train for Kilburn. However, on boarding the train, your colleague found that she had been misdirected to the 17.13 London Midland service to Milton Keynes. She alighted at Milton Keynes where London Midland staff said she would have to pay £21 for an Off-Peak Travelcard to return to Euston. This all added around two hours to her overall journey. I also understand that Virgin Trains have since refunded her additional costs.

Under the rules of rail travel, each passenger must hold a valid ticket for the journey being taken. Whilst your colleagues journey to Milton Keynes (and subsequently her return to Euston) was in error, she did not have a valid ticket for the journey between these two stations. With this in mind, London Midland would’ve been acting in line with these rules by charging her for a new ticket to cover this journey. Whilst they would’ve been within their rights to charge for this journey, this was clearly not your colleagues fault. In such situations, we would therefore expect the company at fault, in this case Virgin Trains, to refund any costs incurred. I am therefore pleased to see that this has been done.

I am unsure why your colleague was charged for a Travelcard at Milton Keynes Central station. I can see that there are cheaper options available, such as an Off-Peak Day Return. However, as a third party who was not there at the time, I cannot speculate as to what was said by the train company and what was requested by your colleague at the time. There are reasons why this Travelcard may have been issued, but without having been there, I simply cannot say for definite why this has been issued. With this in mind, I cannot comment on this further.

As London Midland were acting in line with their revenue protection and retailing obligations by selling your colleague a ticket on which to return to Euston, I regrettably cannot insist that they offer the apology you are seeking.

I’m sorry I’ve been unable to help on this occasion but trust I have been able to clarify why your colleague was charged to make the journey back to Euston.

Kind regards

So I accept most of this, but seems that I have to accept all of what has been said. I still know that LM acted unfairly but they cannot be held responsible and are blame free!

Any thoughts, comments as always appreciated and I suspect it is time to lay to rest ...

J

 

[gray1404]

I understand why you are unhappy. It does not look like TF actually took this to London Midland or spoke to anyone there. Rather they based their reply on what you had told them. Trying to look at it from their view, as you informed them that Virgin had already refunded the extra ticket brought at Milton Keynes then the matter has been fixed. I do take issue with TF saying that you co-worker didn't have a vaild ticket out of Euston. I would take the view that she was given authority to travel by an authorised person.

Anyway, your options from here..... I am going to think aloud here. Yes, you could leave it knowing that 1. you have had an fare from Liverpool refunded by Virgin 2. the additional ticket from Milton Keynes Central refunded too and 3. TfL have refunded the money back onto the Oyster card.
You could complain to TF that you are not happy that they have not taken the matter up with the TOC. I am not sure what you are able to do if you are unhappy at the way on which Transport Focus has dealt with a case. Others on here would know. I was not aware you'd told TF about Virgin refunding the fare already, but I understand why you did that of course.

When you received your last email from London Midland, was it from a Supervisor/Manager or just a Customer Relations Advisor? You could go back to them and INSIST that a Manager looks at your case again. I'm saying this on the assumption that TF did not contact LM.

You could also go back to Virgin and explain that all they have done is refunded your ticket and not actually given any compensation for the problems suffered and additional time spent both on the day of travel and dealing with this.

The most you could be looking at getting though from VT is perhaps a free return journey or some rail travel vouchers. As for London Midland, they are not as giving but it is not unknown for them to give some travel.

 

[fowler9]

I understand why you are unhappy. It does not look like TF actually took this to London Midland or spoke to anyone there. Rather they based their reply on what you had told them. Trying to look at it from their view, as you informed them that Virgin had already refunded the extra ticket brought at Milton Keynes then the matter has been fixed. I do take issue with TF saying that you co-worker didn't have a vaild ticket out of Euston. I would take the view that she was given authority to travel by an authorised person.

Anyway, your options from here..... I am going to think aloud here. Yes, you could leave it knowing that 1. you have had an fare from Liverpool refunded by Virgin 2. the additional ticket from Milton Keynes Central refunded too and 3. TfL have refunded the money back onto the Oyster card.
You could complain to TF that you are not happy that they have not taken the matter up with the TOC. I am not sure what you are able to do if you are unhappy at the way on which Transport Focus has dealt with a case. Others on here would know. I was not aware you'd told TF about Virgin refunding the fare already, but I understand why you did that of course.

When you received your last email from London Midland, was it from a Supervisor/Manager or just a Customer Relations Advisor? You could go back to them and INSIST that a Manager looks at your case again. I'm saying this on the assumption that TF did not contact LM.

You could also go back to Virgin and explain that all they have done is refunded your ticket and not actually given any compensation for the problems suffered and additional time spent both on the day of travel and dealing with this.

The most you could be looking at getting though from VT is perhaps a free return journey or some rail travel vouchers. As for London Midland, they are not as giving but it is not unknown for them to give some travel.

Based on my experience of being a complaint manager in various fields I would say that assuming going to Transport Focus is an escalation of the complaint procedure they should have got in touch with London Midland and Virgin, if they didn't they are pretty toothless. If they have been in touch with London Midland and Virgin then going back to those companies and asking them to re investigate a complaint and come to a different conclusion would be pointless. I would find out who to go to above Transport Focus.

 

[Clip]

Based on my experience of being a complaint manager in various fields I would say that assuming going to Transport Focus is an escalation of the complaint procedure they should have got in touch with London Midland and Virgin, if they didn't they are pretty toothless. If they have been in touch with London Midland and Virgin then going back to those companies and asking them to re investigate a complaint and come to a different conclusion would be pointless. I would find out who to go to above Transport Focus.

Or you could not bother with the stress of keep chasing this round and round in circles, accept the refund and hope that lessons have been learned by those involved?