Why can't automation be over-ridden by the guard?

[BestWestern]

This wouldn't happen to be the APIS system by TrainFX now would it?

TrainFX does ring a bell, yes!

 

[ComUtoR]

TrainFX does ring a bell, yes!

What a piece of **** that it. I thought ours was bad then I used that.

 

[Wolfie]

People care if passengers die. Not many care if the stations are announced wrong.

Visually impaired passengers, who the system is supposed to assist, certainly will and do!

 

[craigybagel]

TrainFX does ring a bell, yes!

What a piece of **** that it. I thought ours was bad then I used that.

Now why doesn't that reaction surprise me? my understanding though is it's not the TOC's who choose the PIS system provider, it's the train leasing companies?

 

[ComUtoR]

Visually impaired passengers, who the system is supposed to assist, certainly will and do!

Yawn, that is a very tedius argument and you are failing to see the point.

Firstly the obvious. If you get on the train and are not aware where it is stopping then you have made a mistake. Yes it happens. If you board the wrong train then its most likely your own fault. There are many systems in place to tell you what train you need to board BEFORE you get on it.

Secondly. Typical passengers know where they are due to get off. Stations are easily missed and I can accept that but you know what ? The PIS is such a poor system in general and really isn't what passengers use to determine their expected stop.

Thirdly and importantly. VIP passengers and other passengers with disabilities, because we cannot forget them either, are very very good a traveling and are usually very good with dealing with their disability. I treat them as valued passengers and treat them as fully independent and competent people. To act otherwise would make me a bad person. VIP's are usually met and often travel using the assisted travel the TOC provides. As a DOO Driver I tend to ask where they are alighting so I can provide assistance if required. They are not random walk up and travel pasengers. They are not incompetent and explicitly reliant on ther PIS to determine their stop.

Quar... The system is NOT specifically to assist VIP passengers. It is designed for ALL passengers.

More to consider. The PIS is NOT safety critical. If it didn't work then it is not significant enough to prevent the train going into service. Many services run without automated PIS and many Drivers do not announce every single station. How did people cope before PIS ? How do people cope now when Drivers and Guards do not make announcements ? It is a first world problem.

Additional things to consider. In a fully automated system the standards are through the roof. It will not be allowed to make an error. Currently on our trains there is TPWS and AWS to protect the train and the line etc. They are automated systems and they are rigorously tested and maintained. They are not allowed to fail and when they do the system is fail safe.

The fact is that the PIS is low priority and therefore the standards are pathetic and the equipment is cheap and far from robust. IF anyone wishes to make a case that the PIS is so important for the Visually impaired and potentially dangerous to travel without it then feel free. It is unpleasant for ANYONE who uses it and not just the visually impaired.

If people are that upset then when its broken. REPORT IT. I have reported broken PIS so many times and I can assure you. They do not listen to me. Call passenger focus and whatever travel groups there are as they might. Funny enough; its a rare complaint.

 

[Howardh]

Yawn, that is a very tedius argument and you are failing to see the point.

Firstly the obvious. If you get on the train and are not aware where it is stopping then you have made a mistake. Yes it happens. If you board the wrong train then its most likely your own fault. There are many systems in place to tell you what train you need to board BEFORE you get on it.

Secondly. Typical passengers know where they are due to get off. Stations are easily missed and I can accept that but you know what ? The PIS is such a poor system in general and really isn't what passengers use to determine their expected stop.

Thirdly and importantly. VIP passengers and other passengers with disabilities, because we cannot forget them either, are very very good a traveling and are usually very good with dealing with their disability. I treat them as valued passengers and treat them as fully independent and competent people. To act otherwise would make me a bad person. VIP's are usually met and often travel using the assisted travel the TOC provides. As a DOO Driver I tend to ask where they are alighting so I can provide assistance if required. They are not random walk up and travel pasengers. They are not incompetent and explicitly reliant on ther PIS to determine their stop.

Quar... The system is NOT specifically to assist VIP passengers. It is designed for ALL passengers.

More to consider. The PIS is NOT safety critical. If it didn't work then it is not significant enough to prevent the train going into service. Many services run without automated PIS and many Drivers do not announce every single station. How did people cope before PIS ? How do people cope now when Drivers and Guards do not make announcements ? It is a first world problem.

Additional things to consider. In a fully automated system the standards are through the roof. It will not be allowed to make an error. Currently on our trains there is TPWS and AWS to protect the train and the line etc. They are automated systems and they are rigorously tested and maintained. They are not allowed to fail and when they do the system is fail safe.

The fact is that the PIS is low priority and therefore the standards are pathetic and the equipment is cheap and far from robust. IF anyone wishes to make a case that the PIS is so important for the Visually impaired and potentially dangerous to travel without it then feel free. It is unpleasant for ANYONE who uses it and not just the visually impaired.

If people are that upset then when its broken. REPORT IT. I have reported broken PIS so many times and I can assure you. They do not listen to me. Call passenger focus and whatever travel groups there are as they might. Funny enough; its a rare complaint.

reading through all that made me think you have a perfectly valid point for not having them at all.
They're not necessary, why have them in the first place, so ditch them!
If they ARE necessary (ie having the constant loop of stations read out to you) then they should be correct.
It's one or the other!

 

[BestWestern]

^^ I agree entirely.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As do I. Wrong information is always far worse than no information.

 

[ComUtoR]

They're not necessary, why have them in the first place, so ditch them!

Because they are not a need to have. They are a want to have.

If they ARE necessary

If they were a necessity then the train would be removed from service if they didn't work. Should a train be cancelled because the PIS isn't working ?

(ie having the constant loop of stations read out to you) then they should be correct.

They should absolutely work. The reasons why they work so badly is that they are very low priority and because they are not safety critical.

They are a modern convenience. Even with my relatively young career they never existed when I first started. I can still get on trains today with zero onboard announcements. I'm even told by my DM of the numerous times where I must not make them.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Do PIS systems give an option for train staff to manually select what station they are at if the system has had a brain fart and forgotten where it is?

 

[ComUtoR]

Do PIS systems give an option for train staff to manually select what station they are at if the system has had a brain fart and forgotten where it is?

I use 3 different systems. All 3 can be switched off and all 3 have a manual select for your location.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If they were a necessity then the train would be removed from service if they didn't work. Should a train be cancelled because the PIS isn't working ?

No. However if the PIS is displaying garbage, it should be possible for the on train staff to turn it off. Bad information is worse than no information; if there is no information, people will open their mouths and ask.

 

[plymothian]

No. However if the PIS is displaying garbage, it should be possible for the on train staff to turn it off. Bad information is worse than no information; if there is no information, people will open their mouths and ask.

No they won't. They'll sit there and complain that no one told them.

This usually happens if something has been announced anyway.

 

[hounddog]

No. However if the PIS is displaying garbage, it should be possible for the on train staff to turn it off. Bad information is worse than no information; if there is no information, people will open their mouths and ask.

More to the point if it's giving out garbage the onboard staff should be giving out the correct information as a matter of course, not waiting to be asked and not saying 'it's not my problem'.

 

[BestWestern]

More to the point if it's giving out garbage the onboard staff should be giving out the correct information as a matter of course, not waiting to be asked and not saying 'it's not my problem'.

The same on board staff that some deem totally superfluous?

A Ticket Examiner or RPI will probably not be going into the cab to use the PA.

 

[ComUtoR]

However if the PIS is displaying garbage, it should be possible for the on train staff to turn it off.

It is and I do. As I posted ALL the ones I use can be switched off.

Bad information is worse than no information;

Totally agree. No one is denying that. Lack of information is bad. However; it's a minor system and announces the stopping pattern. It doesn't give out critical information. Ours can but that is manually inputted. Personally I wouldn't use it for anything important and it is faster to pick up the PA.

I have found that the PIS is very much ignored. It is treated like background noise. I have also been asked on numerous occasions to turn it off. I have NEVER been asked to turn it on.

More to the point if it's giving out garbage the onboard staff should be giving out the correct information as a matter of course, not waiting to be asked and not saying 'it's not my problem'.

You must have a low opinion of staff or had bad experiences or you are being sarcastic ?

It is our job to give out the correct information and most staff I know will give out the best information they have at hand. Remember we are still talking about the PIS or are we ?

 

[Starmill]

Thirdly and importantly. VIP passengers and other passengers with disabilities, because we cannot forget them either, are very very good a traveling and are usually very good with dealing with their disability.

Yes, and that is usually because they are not using the railway.

Why? Well one of the reasons is it's not very accessible - and the small number of trains that are able to offer accurate and reliable journey information is doubtless one of the reasons.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

They are a modern convenience.

Oh right. Funny way of describing a legal requirement but there you go.

 

[hounddog]

You must have a low opinion of staff or had bad experiences or you are being sarcastic ?

It is our job to give out the correct information and most staff I know will give out the best information they have at hand. Remember we are still talking about the PIS or are we ?

Well I've seen one driver say on here (not this thread) it isn't his job to do announcements on DOO trains without an automated system. It doesn't seem to be a problem for his colleagues, though. You've said earlier in the thread that passengers should know the system is giving wrong info and also that mentioning the needs of visually impaired passengers is tedious. I've been on plenty of trains where the automated system has been wrong for the whole journey - either out of phase or frozen - without any correction from the crew. So no, I'm not being sarcastic.

 

[Hadders]

Interesting one this evening. I was on what looked like brand-newly refurbished 365537 from Kings Cross to Stevenage. I suspect it had only come back from refurbihment this week as there was no in-ground dirt in the vinyl floor.

Anyway - the automated annoucement comes on a few minutes before departure:

'Welcome aboard the West Anglia Great Northern service to Cambridge...'

Err - they went two franchises ago! Oh and the train's now got an annoying door closing sound.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Interesting one this evening. I was on what looked like brand-newly refurbished 365537 from Kings Cross to Stevenage. I suspect it had only come back from refurbihment this week as there was no in-ground dirt in the vinyl floor.

Anyway - the automated annoucement comes on a few minutes before departure:

'Welcome aboard the West Anglia Great Northern service to Cambridge...'

Err - they went two franchises ago! Oh and the train's now got an annoying door closing sound.

Someone forget to update its PIS database

 

[D365]

Interesting one this evening. I was on what looked like brand-newly refurbished 365537 from Kings Cross to Stevenage. I suspect it had only come back from refurbihment this week as there was no in-ground dirt in the vinyl floor.

Anyway - the automated annoucement comes on a few minutes before departure:

'Welcome aboard the West Anglia Great Northern service to Cambridge...'

Err - they went two franchises ago! Oh and the train's now got an annoying door closing sound.

I'm almost surprised that the PIS was working for you at all! However I have a feeling that they've reverted to "West Anglia Great Northern" in the interim, as a brand-new PIS is due to be fitted to all units.

 

[A-driver]

Well I've seen one driver say on here (not this thread) it isn't his job to do announcements on DOO trains without an automated system. It doesn't seem to be a problem for his colleagues, though. You've said earlier in the thread that passengers should know the system is giving wrong info and also that mentioning the needs of visually impaired passengers is tedious. I've been on plenty of trains where the automated system has been wrong for the whole journey - either out of phase or frozen - without any correction from the crew. So no, I'm not being sarcastic.

Depends on the driver and nature of the announcements. When I'm working 313s (no PIDs) or a 365 with a stopping pattern not programmed before the setup disks were lost many years ago then I won't announce every station as its impractical to do so. There are some drivers who will and that's up to them. Everyone is different and some feel happier using the PA whilst driving than others.

As for faulty PIDs giving out wrong info, often on a DOO train the driver won't hear the announcements so won't know that incorrect info is being given until a passenger tells them.

 

[mbreckers]

the setup disks were lost

The setup disks were lost. Please tell me they didnt have only a single copy of the setup disks they needed?

 

[bramling]

Ah, so they've fitted exactly the same system as they did to the Turbos then. And the problem of the system getting lost has been present since day 1 on the Turbos, you'd think they'd learn.

That is very poor, considering systems have been in use since the 1990s which can make an attempt to verify the train's location through wheel rotations, not to mention GPS systems.

Considering how much effort goes into devising standards which systems should meet (eg text size), it's amazing how so many systems have proven to be utterly unreliable in service - either displaying no information or wrong information.

To be fair, the system on the trains I drive is pretty reliable, although I must admit to switching it off at times for a bit of peace and quiet.

 

[craigybagel]

That is very poor, considering systems have been in use since the 1990s which can make an attempt to verify the train's location through wheel rotations, not to mention GPS systems.

Considering how much effort goes into devising standards which systems should meet (eg text size), it's amazing how so many systems have proven to be utterly unreliable in service - either displaying no information or wrong information.

To be fair, the system on the trains I drive is pretty reliable, although I must admit to switching it off at times for a bit of peace and quiet.

If it is the TrainFX APIS system, it should have GPS fitted and should only use door openings as a fallback. Unfortunately, for some reason it seems to use that fallback most of the time. Some of our units have a much older system running on wheel rotations and it's far more reliable, very rare for it to give you issues so long as you have the right code for that route.

 

[A-driver]

The setup disks were lost. Please tell me they didnt have only a single copy of the setup disks they needed?

No idea. I'm only a driver. But Hornsey are unable to re program the PIDs. I believe only one was sent from ramsgate with the units.

 

[BestWestern]

That is very poor, considering systems have been in use since the 1990s which can make an attempt to verify the train's location through wheel rotations, not to mention GPS systems.

Considering how much effort goes into devising standards which systems should meet (eg text size), it's amazing how so many systems have proven to be utterly unreliable in service - either displaying no information or wrong information.

To be fair, the system on the trains I drive is pretty reliable, although I must admit to switching it off at times for a bit of peace and quiet.

Surely the simplest and most reliable solution is just to use a beacon on the approach to each location?!

 

[TEW]

If it is the TrainFX APIS system, it should have GPS fitted and should only use door openings as a fallback. Unfortunately, for some reason it seems to use that fallback most of the time. Some of our units have a much older system running on wheel rotations and it's far more reliable, very rare for it to give you issues so long as you have the right code for that route.

It seems that whenever the doors are released it automatically jumps forward to the next station. That isn't a problem normally, but if the doors are re-released at a station for whatever reason the system assumes the train is already at the next station. It the won't correct itself, and will stay one station ahead for the whole journey. The code has to be put in again to reset the system.

 

[craigybagel]

It seems that whenever the doors are released it automatically jumps forward to the next station. That isn't a problem normally, but if the doors are re-released at a station for whatever reason the system assumes the train is already at the next station. It the won't correct itself, and will stay one station ahead for the whole journey. The code has to be put in again to reset the system.

Waitv till you get to request stops, they're a whole new set of fun

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Waitv till you get to request stops, they're a whole new set of fun

If the guard just opens his local door only for the people boarding or alighting, does that mess up the PIS or SDO/ASDO at all?