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Why do multiple units no longer have glass cabs?

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A-driver

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I was once on a bus, the traffic was that bad the driver put his feet up on the dashboard, it was brilliant seeing somebody have a laugh and a joke instead of just monotonously sitting there feeling frustrated.

Mind, it wasn't a normal bus service, it was a special event.

Also, seeing this thread made me think of Blackpool Tramway, you can pretty much see into the cabs and the drivers deal with that perfectly well. Same goes for Manchester Metrolink if I recall correctly.


Edit: seems somebody allready said something along the same lines, apologies.


As has been said, no one has suggested drivers couldn't deal with it. It's more a case of what on earth would be the point in a window? Why start putting them into mainline trains? What benefit would there be?

The DLR has no issue with people being able to see out of the front. Likewise passengers upstairs in double deck buses.



Meanwhile, in coaches, taxis, and indeed for 40 years of Mk 1 dmus (and just a few electrics, like the Glasgow Blue Trains) it didn't cause any issue at all. Even the GWR diesel railcars of the 1930s had it. All the dmu drivers had come from steam locos and never felt any issue I can recall with the passengers being behind. Nor was there ever a case of passengers being difficult through the window that I can recall - and it doesn't happen on buses and coaches, does it ?



It was however a key marketing feature when the trains first came in, and in part led to a notable upsurge in patronage. Much was made of it in publicity of the time.


There is no issue with people seeing out of the front of a train. The DLR dosnt have a driver at the front so is not comparable.


Personally when I'm working I don't want people staring over my shoulder watching everything I do. And many other drivers feel the same way. Yes other forms of transport have a visible driver but that doesn't mean trains need it to. I wouldn't feel comfortable driving a tram where I had people watching me. That means I wouldn't go for a job as a tram driver.

As I say, no one has come up with any reasons for the driver to be visible-and there was a long thread on it a while back (after the Spain crash) where again no one came up with any reasons for the driver to be visible. On those grounds it's unlikely to ever come back-it's not financially beneficial, there is no reason for it to be considered and those who work in the front would oppose it so why would anyone consider introducing it?!


I'll also add that far from considering adding a window the opposite can be seen to be happening. A lot of work is being done on the bulkhead of the class 700 to soundproof the cab. The original mock up had a very thin wall and didn't contain sound. The union reps who were consulted insisted this be changed (which it has been) due to TPWS4 which is fitted. TPWS4 talks to the driver if activated and it was feared that the last thing we need is it alerting anyone in the front coach to the fact that the driver has had a spad or whatever. It will lead to incidents being blown out of all proportion amongst other things.
 
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SPADTrap

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What happens when there is an incident where the cause is distraction from people on the other side of the glass?
 
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The latest ICE Class 407's (Velaro D), no longer have the observation lounge and the drivers cab is blocked off from view.
I assume the similar Velaro e320's for Eurostar (Class 374) are the same?


 

6Gman

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From my extensive experience of the early DMUs I would say that 5% of drivers (max) used the blinds to close off passenger views. That 95% didn't suggests that they didn't find it distracting or intrusive.

The chances of witnessing a fatality were very, very slight.

But modern trains are much more sophisticated and I suspect the need to find suitable surfaces on which to place equipment is a major disincentive to glazing. There may also be a safety issue having glazing rather than a solid wall in such locations,
 

notadriver

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The latest ICE Class 407's (Velaro D), no longer have the observation lounge and the drivers cab is blocked off from view.

I assume the similar Velaro e320's for Eurostar (Class 374) are the same?







That's correct - the e320s are the same and in any case only the front row will get to see anything and the drivers seat blocks the forward view.

Some high speed trains in other countries show the speed on a display in each carriage. I'm still not sure about a front view as animal strikes are quite common .. ?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
But modern trains are much more sophisticated and I suspect the need to find suitable surfaces on which to place equipment is a major disincentive to glazing. There may also be a safety issue having glazing rather than a solid wall in such locations,


Would I be right in saying that Pacers and Sprinters without that corridor connection have a glass window in the door covered in black film which would otherwise allow a front view ? Trams also have the glazing so it can't be an equipment issue ?
 

fowler9

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Certainly were I work everyone seems to be aware of the effect someone looking over your shoulder seems to have. It is distracting. We live in a different world from the 1950's and 60's which is so litigation minded.
 

Crossover

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I've been on modern German ICE trains where you can see the line ahead over the driver's shoulder (who has a central position).
First Class section I think.
Metrolink trams have a glass front, though you can't see much through it because of various obstacles.

I believe they may have both been quiet zones. I found it from First Class kind of by accident - was quite interesting having the forward view at 140mph+
 

pompeyfan

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As a bus driver I have to say you forget the passengers are there, and as has been mentioned sometimes drivers drive with only their right foot, as on domestic rules we can be expected to be in the cab for 5 and a half hours without a stretch, thankfully that is rare as unions are usually pretty hot on it. The only time I disliked being watched was on B7Rles where there is a seat on the N/S wheel arch, with a direct view of the vehicle and cab. I did once hear how one of the polish drivers had been fiddling with the giant digital speedo on the dash to display KPh instead of MPH, and as another driver was on a 40mph stretch of road the speedo said 64kph, and the woman complained using social media then and there, thankfully the buses were limited to 51mph anyway, although the driver still had a 'please explain' which was completely unfair.
 

notadriver

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Very interesting. I suppose in a bus passengers don't normally get a seat with a full view of what the driver is doing unlike in a coach for example.

But regarding the alleged speeding, if 64 kph was enough to get a complaint on social media, surely those some people might complain a train is doing 100 mph as its 'too fast' ?
 

RPM

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I'm not sure that any ordinary (i.e. non-enthusiast) passengers give a fig about having a forward view. I've been experimenting with opening the blinds when I'm driving the bubble cars and I've noticed nobody seems to make a beeline for the window seats at the front. In fact, being the furthest seats from the platform entrance, they often get left empty.
 

D365

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But regarding the alleged speeding, if 64 kph was enough to get a complaint on social media, surely those some people might complain a train is doing 100 mph as its 'too fast' ?

I suppose the difference is that the public doesn't tend to know the linespeed on a working railway... also that when a train is travelling the line ahead is specifically cleared for passage.

Not to mention how driving on the rails is a more limited opportunity :D
 

Cherry_Picker

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On modern stock a lot of electronics are situated behind the drivers seat, the cab is also a crumple zone, would you want me to watch you while you are working?

Only if you promise to always film me on your phone and upload the video to YouTube as soon as you get home.

I'm not sure that any ordinary (i.e. non-enthusiast) passengers give a fig about having a forward view. I've been experimenting with opening the blinds when I'm driving the bubble cars and I've noticed nobody seems to make a beeline for the window seats at the front. In fact, being the furthest seats from the platform entrance, they often get left empty.


It's not really on a route which attracts new passengers very often though is it? In my experience the Risborough - Aylesbury branch trains are either carting around fresh air or passengers who have made that journey a thousand times for whom the novelty of being able to see the route ahead has worn off. Somewhere busier would see a stream of people with their nose pressed against the glass. I'd find it very distracting.
 
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Bletchleyite

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Philip C

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The last time that I travelled from Harwich to The Hook of Holland I was allocated a forward looking suite just below the bridge. In addition the TV in the suite offered a forward viewing channel; another, I remember, gave a continuous view of the pet quarters and riveting viewing that was not!

I feel that the forward view is as well regarded by a significant number of passengers as was the case when DMUs came into mass service in the 1950s. Competition is strong for front seats on DLR, as it is for front seats on double-deck buses. Forward view is rarely impeded on Metrolink and, if memory serves, Tyne & Wear have a "half-cab" arrangement giving passengers an excellent view forward. Clearly there may be insurmountable constraints due to the positioning of equipment cases but, where this is not the case, why shouldn't the paying public have that which they value? Tinted glass or blinds can deal with reflections at night, and glass can be as thick or multi-layered as required to stop distraction.

I rather doubt that many drivers are really concerned about being watched or that there is anything to hide anyway. If it were an accepted part of the job, as on tramways, then those 'shrinking violets' who really couldn't cope would find themselves other careers (I don't sense any underlying shortage of candidates to drive trains). The evidence of the past is that the vast majority of staff brought up on steam locos were perfectly happy to have their shoulders looked over. If it also makes customers feel a little more secure then that must be a good thing, and it may even delay the date at which computers take over the driving job on the mainline!

But it isn't going to happen.
 

Peter Sarf

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How did your colleagues from the 50s and 60s cope? ;)

Of course a lot of cabs in those days had a ruddy great wagon full of coal inserted behind the cab - always wondered what that was for :oops:.

Personally I enjoyed the view out from the front on the many EMUs and DMUs I made journeys on. But once someone starts thinking about the pros and cons of it the result will inevitably be that it is easier not to bother with the glass.

I can see some practical reasons for denying a passenger a forward facing view.
1) They might witness a suicide (as mentioed up thread).
2) They could partially learn how to drive a train which might be viewed as a security risk nowadays.
3) They could tap on the glass in an attempt to distract the driver. Without the glass they would not have the temptation or feedback (as meantioned).
4) There is a difference between trains and road vehicles. Many passengers are also able to drive road vehicles so understand what the driver of the bus is/is-not doing. On a train many road users would be alarmed by the differences. For example at the number of orange lights a train goes through despite that light not being green for so long. This is because they are unaware of the fact that amber on the railways has a totally different meaning to an amber at a road junction. Mind you I do not recall people worrying about such things in the 60s and 70s.

Skip read the last few pages to check but sorry if I am repeating someone else.

I ought to add that I sometimes really wish I had a sound proofed partition round me when driving in my car !.
 
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PermitToTravel

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I ought to add that I sometimes really wish I had a sound proofed partition round me when driving in my car !.

Was it the case that cabs were properly soundproof then? Modern train cabs aren't too brilliantly soundproofed, and in the likes of a Metrolink cab with its glass front one can hear everything happening up front very well (and presumably vice versa).
 

Taunton

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The DLR doesn't have a driver at the front so is not comparable.
I presume you don't use the DLR much. The train operator quite regularly asks any passengers in the front left seat to vacate, opens up the front console, and operates from that position, ready to sound the horn when advised there are any maintenance crew on the tracks, just to operate the doors if it's freezing outside, when there is the occasional comms failure and trains are being driven on sight/radio messages, and other events.

No stupidity by passengers. No phone thrust in their face. No distraction taking place. No terrorists taking covert notes. And that's with being inside the passenger saloon, not in a separate cab.

Meanwhile the front is by far the most popular position, the seat rows in that saloon are always filled first, it's great for kids, for tourists, etc. Just like it was when your grandfather transferred from steam loco footplates to dmus in the 1950s. He seemed able to make the transition no problem, and in fact many loved it.
 

FordFocus

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It worked in the 1960s and 70s as the units were very simple with little electronics.

Once the second gen of units came, the bulkheads behind the driver is full of relays controlling various system combined with the fire alarm system, buzzer and safety equipment. Relocating these would be a loss of seats, something the DfT would fit about :lol::lol::lol::lol:

People's attitudes have changed since the early days. People were far more respectful and patient, now we live in the culture of people reporting drivers for standing at a signal for 90 seconds on twitter or banging on the cab door. Whilst it would nice to have a child looking out the front with their parents I think the whole thing would be a massive distraction to the driver. The industry is constantly trying to eliminate distractions..

Very unlikely to happen in the near future.
 

Doctor Fegg

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A few weeks back I travelled on an Air New Zealand prop plane from Hokitika to Christchurch. The pilot didn't draw the curtain - all the passengers could see through the cockpit and the windscreen. It was rather fun.
 

Taunton

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In the 1960s dmus were operating the Taunton to Minehead branch (nowadays the West Somerset heritage steam railway). On winter Sunday afternoons there would be hardly anybody in the train, apart from myself as a child plus the others in the family, and of course we sat right up behind the driver. Once clear of the main line and onto the single track, more than once he noticed the fascination, slid the door back, started a chat, and invited myself into the cab, initially to operate the two-tone horn for all the foot crossings along the way, graduating to the throttle handle and even the brake valve coming into somewhere remote like Stogumber, where there was never anybody around at that time. I believe all this was by no means unknown elsewhere either.

Still fully professional. Never took his eyes off the road ahead while all this was going on, and could have pulled up in a moment. They may have been 1950s technology and vacuum brakes, but a dmu with the brake valve slammed right round could pull up in a way that would do credit to a London Underground train today.
 

scott118

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long gone are the days of 'encouraging' kids, even your own. Not only would you be dismissed, for having someone without the relevant cab pass up front, you would probably find yourself on a register too.
 

A-driver

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The last time that I travelled from Harwich to The Hook of Holland I was allocated a forward looking suite just below the bridge. In addition the TV in the suite offered a forward viewing channel; another, I remember, gave a continuous view of the pet quarters and riveting viewing that was not!



I feel that the forward view is as well regarded by a significant number of passengers as was the case when DMUs came into mass service in the 1950s. Competition is strong for front seats on DLR, as it is for front seats on double-deck buses. Forward view is rarely impeded on Metrolink and, if memory serves, Tyne & Wear have a "half-cab" arrangement giving passengers an excellent view forward. Clearly there may be insurmountable constraints due to the positioning of equipment cases but, where this is not the case, why shouldn't the paying public have that which they value? Tinted glass or blinds can deal with reflections at night, and glass can be as thick or multi-layered as required to stop distraction.



I rather doubt that many drivers are really concerned about being watched or that there is anything to hide anyway. If it were an accepted part of the job, as on tramways, then those 'shrinking violets' who really couldn't cope would find themselves other careers (I don't sense any underlying shortage of candidates to drive trains). The evidence of the past is that the vast majority of staff brought up on steam locos were perfectly happy to have their shoulders looked over. If it also makes customers feel a little more secure then that must be a good thing, and it may even delay the date at which computers take over the driving job on the mainline!



But it isn't going to happen.


How many passengers feel unsafe not being able to see the driver/out of the front? And those that do won't have a genuine reason not to.

And "delay the date which computers take over the driving job"?! Lol, so a date has been set for this has it? Despite the fact that there are no plans for it anywhere!
 

Philip C

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How many passengers feel unsafe not being able to see the driver/out of the front? And those that do won't have a genuine reason not to.

And "delay the date which computers take over the driving job"?! Lol, so a date has been set for this has it? Despite the fact that there are no plans for it anywhere!

Would you suggest that your daughter sat in a carriage by herself or near the guard or where the driver was in view? I know which two options I'd recommend.

I do not suggest that a date for driving to be fully automated has been set or that it is likely to happen soon. However I rather doubt that in fifty years we will find trains being driven in the sense that they are today; if planes can land themselves, and the Victoria Line be into its second generation of largely code driven stock, then it will probably happen. The more trains that run on a line the less tolerant the system is to individual driving styles; the ideal driver is the standard driver and machines are so much better than humans at that. I don't particularly welcome this and I could be quite wrong; certainly there remains much work to be done in controlling the railway environment and building greater reliability into its key components, but this seems the clear direction of travel.

The future for train drivers is to provide the human presence that is, seemingly, valued and, to me, that means more contact with the customer not less.

But I still don't expect to be looking out of the front window from a passenger seat anytime soon.
 

alexl92

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Would you suggest that your daughter sat in a carriage by herself or near the guard or where the driver was in view? I know which two options I'd recommend.

A close friend of mine often finds herself to be the subject of advances from 'creepy' men on trains on account of being young, short and pretty (I know it sounds cliché'd but I've witnessed it myself), particularly on late evening trains. On most of these services (Northern...) the guard just stays in the rear cab for 90% of the journey - I know a lot of people would feel far happier if they knew the guard could see down the carriage and it may go some way to reducing incidents like this on trains - especially as you can't realistically expect the guard to pace through the train for whole journey.

A glass cab or a window in the rear wall of the cab with a blind which was open when the guard is in residence could be a good thing actually.
 

notadriver

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Most trains have cctv which train crews can view from other than the leading driving cabs.

Driving cabs are private areas and don't have windows because they are - private as it says on the door.
 
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