Why do multiple units no longer have glass cabs?

[Welshman]

Just as it said on the outer and inner doors of 1st Gen. d.m.u. Cabs

 

[notadriver]

Just as it said on the outer and inner doors of 1st Gen. d.m.u. Cabs

Dont those bubble cars run around with blinds down ? I wonder if its policy not to allow the public a front view ?

 

[alexl92]

Most trains have cctv which train crews can view from other than the leading driving cabs.

Driving cabs are private areas and don't have windows because they are - private as it says on the door.

Can/do the train crews actually watch though? Would they notice if something was happening?

 

[A-driver]

Can/do the train crews actually watch though? Would they notice if something was happening?

A driver definitely wouldn't. You can't view the cctv when the train is moving.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Think security. Smash the glass on a first gen DMU and you can get to the driver. It just couldn't happen nowadays.

 

[Kite159]

For the closest experience these days, try the DLR in London - no driver but a view ahead. Always the first seats to go.

Or the Tyne & Wear metro, front seat giving excellent views (although I haven't read entire thread to see if the T&W metro has already been mentioned)

 

[ainsworth74]

It's not down to that. Think security. Smash the glass on a first gen DMU and you can get to the driver. It just couldn't happen nowadays.

I wouldn't put much faith in the cab doors of something like a 14x, 15x and 16x! Or a number of other units either!

 

[notadriver]

But you don't work on these units so how would you know ?

 

[ainsworth74]

So they are tough enough to stand up to a bit of a battering?

 

[yorkie]

If they ever re-introduced such a thing now a days they would need to employ a heck of a lot more Twitter staff to field all the complaints! The world is a very different place now to when these were common. Imagine passengers watching a driver now...tweets of 'this driver is drinking tea whilst driving-how unsafe', 'my driver has his foot up on the dashboard-too relaxed to be fully concentrating on driving my train' and so on...

Does this happen on trams?

If not, I don't see any reason why it'd be an issue with trains.
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DLR - are you serious? Have you tried to ask one of their drivers, if it's unobtrusive at all?

In my experience, when they drive, while you cannot sit in the immediately adjacent seat, you can sit in the seats the other side of the aisle, or immediately behind them.

Personally when I'm working I don't want people staring over my shoulder watching everything I do..

There are many jobs where people can see everything you do. In fact that's probably the case in the majority of jobs I would have thought?
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What happens when there is an incident where the cause is distraction from people on the other side of the glass?

Have there been any instances of this actually happening or is it theoretical? I've caught many trams and never witnessed anyone do anything like this.

Also, could this not happen with any door (not just a glass door)?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The chances of witnessing a fatality were very, very slight.

Indeed, if that was a consideration you'd have to ban front view seats on the DLR, Newcastle Metro, trams, etc.

 

[Harpers Tate]

Think security. Smash the glass on a first gen DMU and you can get to the driver. It just couldn't happen nowadays.

Ha!
Images of hijackers coming to mind......I wonder how that would work, then.
"Take this train to Alderney* or else...."



(* = chosen entirely at random)

 

[scott118]

Just like it was when your grandfather transferred from steam loco footplates to dmus in the 1950s. He seemed able to make the transition no problem, and in fact many loved it.

More to do with working environment rather than having a glass bulkhead. I'd imagine, not having to shovel 8 tonnes of coal per shift, had a distinct effect when your grandfather transferred. To drive steam, is for sure, a different animal, to turning a key, and pulling a lever or 3. No wonder the transition was seemless to some..

 

[TheKnightWho]

Ha!
Images of hijackers coming to mind......I wonder how that would work, then.
"Take this train to Alderney* or else...."



(* = chosen entirely at random)

I think it's more the "Let's put it on full throttle and kill everyone" sort of thing that people are worried about

 

[notadriver]

The average lay person could take over a road vehicle and do exactly that. I could do a certain number of things which would immobilize a train so the hijacker wouldn't have a chance.

 

[alexl92]

Somewhat ironically, I've just realised that the journey which prompted this thought, which was on a 142, was in the dark anyway so the driver would have had a blind down even if the cab back had been glass.

 

[SPADTrap]

Have there been any instances of this actually happening or is it theoretical? I've caught many trams and never witnessed anyone do anything like this.

Incidents due to distraction? There have been many, although incidents involving glass partitions and mainline trains probably not because we haven't got any units like that which in my opinion as a driver is a good thing. Witnessed anyone do anything like what?

There are many jobs where people can see everything you do. In fact that's probably the case in the majority of jobs I would have thought?

What jobs are you talking about? My TOC want my cab to be as distraction free as possible to the extent of me not having anyone other than a manger or minder driver in with me so having a glass partition solely so passengers can see in certainly isn't on their agenda because of the distraction risk, just because other jobs are 'visible' doesn't mean a train driver's needs to be. There is a reason we can't have just anyone up front! There is also a difference between doing a job where people can see what you are doing and having a feature designed so people can watch you, you can see me all you like as I roll into the platform if you feel the need to 'check up' on me.

Distractions through the door do happen, especially on the older units where you can hear everything (and the passengers can hear you too) but that is a very different distraction to having people looking over your shoulder and being able to see them and whatever they are doing. Simple fact is that if an incident was to occur because of a newly installed glass partition who would take responsibility? Take it from 99% of professional drivers here, we are all saying the same thing, I think we're the ones who should know, respectfully! We just want to get the train from A-B safely without incident, we're not there to put on a show.

Out of interest what are the compelling reasons for such a feature?

 

[yorkie]

Out of interest what are the compelling reasons for such a feature?

But, given that you can see out the front of trams and the DLR (including when driven 'manually'), are there a compelling reasons not to have such a feature?

If there are such compelling reasons, why do nearly all trams, and some new ICE trains, have the feature?

 

[Northern Pacer]

Just a thought but I'm sure I read somewhere that Class 155s were tried with glass panels but there were distraction issues and as mentioned before,a party of schoolchildren witnessed a 63(?)mph fatality so 'Conventional' cab ends were restored.

 

[yorkie]

Just a thought but I'm sure I read somewhere that Class 155s were tried with glass panels but there were distraction issues and as mentioned before,a party of schoolchildren witnessed a 63(?)mph fatality so 'Conventional' cab ends were restored.

Do you have a source for that?

 

[Northern Pacer]

Honestly, no. I'm sure I've read it somewhere but I couldn't remember for the life of me where, unfortunately.

 

[SPADTrap]

But, given that you can see out the front of trams and the DLR (including when driven 'manually'), are there a compelling reasons not to have such a feature?

If there are such compelling reasons, why do nearly all trams, and some new ICE trains, have the feature?

Given that they don't exist and would be either a retrofit or redesign for our stock in the UK I think compelling reasons for is a more appropriate question to be answered.

How about answer this, why was it removed from UK stock in the first place? I know nothing of ICE trains but drive UK trains on the mainline, I fail to understand why what my colleagues and I are saying isn't taken seriously when we do the job and would know what is and isn't a potentially dangerous distraction? If it wasn't then we'd probably have such a feature or be allowed to have whoever we like up the front so they can see what its like on their way to work. Thankfully my/all UK companies realise this would be a danger and I think you'll find that as your compelling reason not to.

I can understand the appeal, after all I became a driver following at least a little curiosity of the view forward and having done some research into the ICE trains it appears to be a 'gimmick' for want of a better word for long distance intercity services in first class at one end and standard at the other? (Both with the view?)

 

[A-driver]

But, given that you can see out the front of trams and the DLR (including when driven 'manually'), are there a compelling reasons not to have such a feature?

If there are such compelling reasons, why do nearly all trams, and some new ICE trains, have the feature?

Why are you obsessed with comparing trains with trams and the dlr? So what if the way they are built means you can see out the front. You can't on trains. Why on earth would you need to? At a guess a big part of the glass wall on trams is to give the driver maximum view all around them for the road sections. I know they have mirrors but the less blind spots the better.

The way multiple units are designed puts a lot of electrics and emergency equipment in the back wall leaving no room for a viewing window. Why would this all be redesigned just to allow a few spotters to see where they are going?!

Train drivers (not tram, dlr, bus, boat, car, taxi or anyone else but TRAIN drivers) in the UK are used to a private work environment. Why on earth would you try and chamge that? What single benefit would it bring to anyone at all? It wont improve security as they will be looking where they are going, not behind them so if anyone needs their urgent attention they will have to bang on the door (so exactly as they do now with windowless trains( and the security argument is a silly one anyway as no driver is going to notice what is happening 12cars away from them...) if there was a genuine reason to install windows then drivers would get used to it but there isn't a single good reason for adding these windows.

The only reason anyone has given for a window is so that passengers can have a front facing view. That's not really a reason warranting a complete redesign of traction and arguing with the entire workforce of drivers over is it-it's really not that interesting to stare at some signals and sleepers.

I really can't see why people are so obsessed with constantly comparing train drivers to other jobs just because they also involve driving. And I also can't understand people's obsession with windows looking into a cab. It's not going to happen, get over it and move on. Life is too short to dwell on such things!

 

[yorkie]

...just to allow a few spotters to see where they are going?!...

Not quite sure where spotters come into this?!

I really can't see why people are so obsessed with constantly comparing train drivers to other jobs just because they also involve driving.

Interesting choice of words, but it doesn't change the facts.

And I also can't understand people's obsession with windows looking into a cab. It's not going to happen, get over it and move on. Life is too short to dwell on such things!

It already is happening in places like Germany.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can understand the appeal, after all I became a driver following at least a little curiosity of the view forward and having done some research into the ICE trains it appears to be a 'gimmick' for want of a better word for long distance intercity services in first class at one end and standard at the other? (Both with the view?)

I effectively learnt to drive a Class 101 years ago by nosing through the windows over the driver's shoulder. When I then years later got bought a driver experience day (for my 30th), I sat down in the cab and (once I had got over the nerves of controlling such a big vehicle using controls different from a car) had the idea pretty quickly, albeit being very cautious with the brakes.

Yes, those ICEs have the view both ways but because the window is high up you don't get a very good view compared with a classic UK DMU. FWIW most DB DMUs and EMUs as well as a lot of the driving trailers have a glass partition, but often the blinds/curtains are closed.

 

[Pigeon]

In the 1960s dmus were operating the Taunton to Minehead branch (nowadays the West Somerset heritage steam railway). On winter Sunday afternoons there would be hardly anybody in the train, apart from myself as a child plus the others in the family, and of course we sat right up behind the driver. Once clear of the main line and onto the single track, more than once he noticed the fascination, slid the door back, started a chat, and invited myself into the cab, initially to operate the two-tone horn for all the foot crossings along the way, graduating to the throttle handle and even the brake valve coming into somewhere remote like Stogumber, where there was never anybody around at that time. I believe all this was by no means unknown elsewhere either.

Or elsewhen. Happened in the 80s when they put DMUs on the S&C.

I fail to understand why what my colleagues and I are saying isn't taken seriously when we do the job and would know what is and isn't a potentially dangerous distraction?

Because plenty of us can remember when see-through cabs were the norm (this being why the thread was started in the first place), and drivers had a choice over whether to permit or block the view from the passenger compartment. And the overwhelming majority of them chose not to block it. So the conclusion from observing a much larger sample of drivers than on this forum, and judging them by their actions rather than by words, is that it's not generally considered a problem. Not to mention the examples of foreign trains that still allow it.

Concerning distractions, a lot of the blinds had a little hole in them at just the right point for a driver to turn round in his seat and peer through it at people on late night services getting it on in the front seat

 

[GatwickDepress]

Indeed, if that was a consideration you'd have to ban front view seats on the DLR, Newcastle Metro, trams, etc.

Closed off light rail systems that bear little resemblance to the mainline. Also a lot less electrical systems and controls to mount on walls (look at the cab of a Class 139 compared to a 321).

It's obviously considered a lot easier to have them within easy access of the driver rather than concealed somewhere in the passenger saloon.

 

[Harpers Tate]

We have heard the case against having a forward view over the driver. For the moment, it's probably best to ignore any practical considerations about siting of equipment and so on since, presumably, if the brief to a train manufacturer were to offer a forward view, then they would find somewhere else for it. Likewise, I doubt it would be beyond the wit of man to make a transparent partition as secure as the present arrangements are or more so; indeed cab doors on certain current fleet DMUs seem somewhat flimsy anyway. So I contend that (as in Germany; as on trams and so on) it is in practical terms entirely possible, given the will to do it.

Which leaves us with the (let me call it) more personal factors, such as drivers not enjoying being overlooked. And safety matters such as driver distractions, passengers witnessing incidents and so on.

As a reminder especially to those too young to remember the 1950/60 DMU fleet in its heyday, I'd like to suggest (again) a viewing of this eight-minute film
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXtK_h9rygk

I think this short film illustrates the case FOR having a front view far more eloquently than I can. It was something that was enjoyed by all who had any interest in their ride, the scenery and so on; not merely enthusiasts.

Maybe I have rose-tinted spectacles, but
- as regards drivers not liking being watched: all such DMUs had blinds, yet for much of their operational period, drivers practically never drew the blinds in daylight. Only at the very end of these trains' lives - in the few residual DMU operations after the main introduction of 14x and 15x - did this practice become widespread with some DMUs actually having black plastic film placed on the glass and others having their blinds left down. Perhaps something happened to train drivers in the 1980's to make them become more self-conscious?
- as regards distractions: same thing exactly. As others have said, it was in fact quite common for a driver to open the door and speak to (especially) children at the front. In 1959 as a child, I was invited to "steer" the train into Newport station using the (unmovable) handbrake wheel - an event that lives with me to this day. Has something changed to make drivers more prone to being distracted?
- as regards passengers seeing something tragic: such events are mercifully extremely rare; far more so than, say on the roads. I don't see much evidence of people walking around in a persistent traumatic state following a motorway pile-up; nor did this appear to be a real issue on the railways back then. Is there something peculiar about modern trains and railways that makes them especially prone to causing psychological trauma?

 

[A-driver]

I effectively learnt to drive a Class 101 years ago by nosing through the windows over the driver's shoulder. When I then years later got bought a driver experience day (for my 30th), I sat down in the cab and (once I had got over the nerves of controlling such a big vehicle using controls different from a car) had the idea pretty quickly, albeit being very cautious with the brakes.

Yes, those ICEs have the view both ways but because the window is high up you don't get a very good view compared with a classic UK DMU. FWIW most DB DMUs and EMUs as well as a lot of the driving trailers have a glass partition, but often the blinds/curtains are closed.

Ah I see, you have watched a driver before and learnt everything there is to know about being a train driver tht way. I'm glad we know where you get your authoritative extensive railway knowledge for that you keep using for staff bashing on things you know nothing about!
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Not quite sure where spotters come into this?!

Interesting choice of words, but it doesn't change the facts.

It already is happening in places like Germany.

Spotters...well the only reason people have come up with for windows is so people can watch the road ahead. I'm guessing your average 9till5 commuter couldn't care less about such things when jammed in a sardine can train running 7mins late...

Change the facts...you still havnt explained why you continue to compare drivers. Why not suggest reasons that pilots don't have a viewing window into their cockpit? Just because a job involves driving something doesn't mean you can constantly compare it. The railway is a completely different world to the roads, air, sea, trams etc and just because it works on one dosnt mean it suites all.

Germany...well you are still ignoring my point that we don't line in Germany, this is Briton. In India people travel on the roof of trains. So does that automatically mean it will work here to?

Can't see any of those points as having any validity...

 

[SPADTrap]

We have heard the case against having a forward view over the driver. For the moment, it's probably best to ignore any practical considerations about siting of equipment and so on since, presumably, if the brief to a train manufacturer were to offer a forward view, then they would find somewhere else for it. Likewise, I doubt it would be beyond the wit of man to make a transparent partition as secure as the present arrangements are or more so; indeed cab doors on certain current fleet DMUs seem somewhat flimsy anyway. So I contend that (as in Germany; as on trams and so on) it is in practical terms entirely possible, given the will to do it.

Which leaves us with the (let me call it) more personal factors, such as drivers not enjoying being overlooked. And safety matters such as driver distractions, passengers witnessing incidents and so on.

As a reminder especially to those too young to remember the 1950/60 DMU fleet in its heyday, I'd like to suggest (again) a viewing of this eight-minute film
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXtK_h9rygk

I think this short film illustrates the case FOR having a front view far more eloquently than I can. It was something that was enjoyed by all who had any interest in their ride, the scenery and so on; not merely enthusiasts.

Maybe I have rose-tinted spectacles, but
- as regards drivers not liking being watched: all such DMUs had blinds, yet for much of their operational period, drivers practically never drew the blinds in daylight. Only at the very end of these trains' lives - in the few residual DMU operations after the main introduction of 14x and 15x - did this practice become widespread with some DMUs actually having black plastic film placed on the glass and others having their blinds left down. Perhaps something happened to train drivers in the 1980's to make them become more self-conscious?
- as regards distractions: same thing exactly. As others have said, it was in fact quite common for a driver to open the door and speak to (especially) children at the front. In 1959 as a child, I was invited to "steer" the train into Newport station using the (unmovable) handbrake wheel - an event that lives with me to this day. Has something changed to make drivers more prone to being distracted?
- as regards passengers seeing something tragic: such events are mercifully extremely rare; far more so than, say on the roads. I don't see much evidence of people walking around in a persistent traumatic state following a motorway pile-up; nor did this appear to be a real issue on the railways back then. Is there something peculiar about modern trains and railways that makes them especially prone to causing psychological trauma?

A nice video indeed (I wish I was around then!!) but I'm sure I don't need to point out things are quite different now and I'm not sure how that video illustrates that it wouldn't be a distraction as I would fear. (I do the job, do you want me distracted? Or do you feel qualified to tell me that I either wouldn't be or am wrong to be distracted by it?)

You seem to pass off the element of distraction but TOCs certainly don't have the same attitude believe me. Perhaps as trains became busier it became less and less appropriate to have a glass window into the cab? The job has changed vast amounts since then so the only change I can see if drivers adapting to that change and distraction is a huge subject nowadays.

A driver opening the cab door to invite anyone up front to 'steer' even if just pretend isn't merely a distraction but a major violation which would certainly lose their driver their job and could put the train in extreme danger!

Not sure if your last question is genuine or not? If you can't see how an event like that is traumatic then..there is a huge difference between a motorway 'pile up' and someone lose their life in front of your train, sadly these events certainly aren't 'mercifully extremely rare' either. You're not wearing rose tinted specs by any measure you have a misunderstanding of the entire matter, which is probably a good thing.
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Interesting choice of words, but it doesn't change the facts.

The fact that no UK units have these? No, it doesn't.

 

[Juniper Driver]

No. I make more mistakes when being watched. That said, legend has it that in Japan they do it to ensure driivers stick to the rules.

I've watched Japanese train drivers driving and found it very interesting but can assure you I didn't report them on Twitter.