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Why do multiple units no longer have glass cabs?

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SPADTrap

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I've watched Japanese train drivers driving and found it very interesting but can assure you I didn't report them on Twitter.;)

Not sure how passengers would know that a driver is 'breaking the rules' though! We have Competency Management Systems and data recorders and unannounced assessments for that as you'll know!
 
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455driver

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Because plenty of us can remember when see-through cabs were the norm (this being why the thread was started in the first place), and drivers had a choice over whether to permit or block the view from the passenger compartment. And the overwhelming majority of them chose not to block it. So the conclusion from observing a much larger sample of drivers than on this forum, and judging them by their actions rather than by words, is that it's not generally considered a problem. Not to mention the examples of foreign trains that still allow it.

Concerning distractions, a lot of the blinds had a little hole in them at just the right point for a driver to turn round in his seat and peer through it at people on late night services getting it on in the front seat :D
So something that wasn't a problem in the 70s and 80s wouldn't be a problem now! :roll:

Funnily enough SPADs and 'operating incidents' weren't really a problem then either (most were squared up between the signalman and driver with no need for any paperwork) but try having one now and see what happens!

How many drivers had cameras thrust in their faces while they were sat at stations (I mean in through the cab window because the clart wanted a picture of the desk and couldn't be bothered to ask), something which has happened to me 5 times in the last year.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I've watched Japanese train drivers driving and found it very interesting but can assure you I didn't report them on Twitter.;)

Japan is a much more tolerant and respectful society than this Country could ever be!
I know of drivers being reported by passengers for using their phones while driving.
The drivers were either on the PA or GSMR but the numpty passengers couldn't see the lead attaching the 'phone' to the train but they managed to see the phone at the drivers ear! <D


Just look at the amount of stuff in the cab that needs the drivers attention now compared to the 70s.
 
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D365

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How many drivers had cameras thrust in their faces while they were sat at stations (I mean in through the cab window because the clart wanted a picture of the desk and couldn't be bothered to ask), something which has happened to me 5 times in the last year.

The same who cry "you're not doing your job properly"!
If one is so keen to experience a cab, it's not all that difficult to get in touch. So that you don't intrude on railway workings excessively.

I know of drivers being reported by passengers for using their phones while driving.
The drivers were either on the PA or GSMR but the numpty passengers couldn't see the lead attaching the 'phone' to the train but they managed to see the phone at the drivers ear!

There's a notion that a train driver with a handset (or a bus driver with headset) is using the facility for casual purposes - as is seen often by our more informal road users :roll:
 

notadriver

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A bus driver with a headset? I don't think the use of even hands free devices is permitted on the move by the bigger companies. The use of headsets to give guided tours by coach drivers is also banned.

However a train driver is expected to make PA announcements on the move in DOO trains as well as communicate with the signaller or deal with passenger alarms etc all which use a handset. They are trained to do that and it's totally different to road driving.
 

A-driver

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A bus driver with a headset? I don't think the use of even hands free devices is permitted on the move by the bigger companies. The use of headsets to give guided tours by coach drivers is also banned.

However a train driver is expected to make PA announcements on the move in DOO trains as well as communicate with the signaller or deal with passenger alarms etc all which use a handset. They are trained to do that and it's totally different to road driving.


No they are not...

Nowhere does it state that train drivers must use the PA or radio on the move. If the signaller rings me whilst I feel it unsafe to speak with them (approaching a red or platform for example) I ignore the radio until at a stand, then call them back. I've had many signallers shouting "hello driver, are you there, please answer driver..." Down the radio at me and I just blank it out entirely until after a stand.

As for the PA, I hardly ever use it on the move. I never make "we are now approaching xxx station" announcements, and stations I wish to announce I do once the train has stopped and doors opened. I know a lot of passengers complain about no announcements when a train crawls along-if I'm inspecting the line or running on yellows the last thing I'd ever consider doing is picking up the PA handset and telling passengers what I'm doing. I'll let them know once clear.

There certainly is no expectation for a train driver to use either PA or radio on the move. If you do so and have an incident you will have the book thrown at you.
 

notadriver

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No it doesn't say we have to but PA announcements are expected approaching terminal stations from the driver so on DOO trains.
 

Dieseldriver

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Use of the radio to speak to the controlling signaller is permitted on my TOC as long as you are on greens and consider it safe.
 

A-driver

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No it doesn't say we have to but PA announcements are expected approaching terminal stations from the driver so on DOO trains.


Well that's only optional. You are well within your rights not to announce on approach but once stationary. Once I get a clear signal into gasworks tunnel and am at 15mph halfway through the tunnel I'll announce as its a safe location-no signals, no approaching speeds and far enough from a platform to avoid TPWS/door release issues.

No TOC can enforce ANY driver announcements whilst the train is moving.
 

Taunton

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Not on my TOC it's not. GSMR must only be used when at a stand unless in an emergency situation.
If you had a steam special running, presumably they feel the driver should not speak to the fireman.

I've had many signallers shouting "hello driver, are you there, please answer driver..." Down the radio at me and I just blank it out entirely until after a stand.
Is there not training done for signallers about this? Air Traffic Controllers certainly completely understand that answering a radio message is well down the priority list - expression is 'Aviate - Navigate - Communicate' in that order of priority.
 
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A-driver

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If you had a steam special running, presumably they feel the driver should not speak to the fireman.


There are many, many times when the driver would have company in the cab. Talking to each other is fine, weather work related or not. However the driver would be professional enough to know what to prioritise and stop talking when they need to concentrate on something.

I'll happily talk on the GSMR when running at 100mph under greens as there is less to concentrate on that when slowing or stopping.
 

FordFocus

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Ah I see, you have watched a driver before and learnt everything there is to know about being a train driver tht way. I'm glad we know where you get your authoritative extensive railway knowledge for that you keep using for staff bashing on things you know nothing about!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---



Spotters...well the only reason people have come up with for windows is so people can watch the road ahead. I'm guessing your average 9till5 commuter couldn't care less about such things when jammed in a sardine can train running 7mins late...

Change the facts...you still havnt explained why you continue to compare drivers. Why not suggest reasons that pilots don't have a viewing window into their cockpit? Just because a job involves driving something doesn't mean you can constantly compare it. The railway is a completely different world to the roads, air, sea, trams etc and just because it works on one dosnt mean it suites all.

Germany...well you are still ignoring my point that we don't line in Germany, this is Briton. In India people travel on the roof of trains. So does that automatically mean it will work here to?

Can't see any of those points as having any validity...

Well said A-Driver. I doubt you'll get a decent response from certain posters in this thread but would rather dodge the question(s) and throw up some irrelevant questions back at you instead. :roll::lol:

So let's remove the DLR/Trams comparison for a second as this is light rail capable of stopping on a sixpence. If new build trains were capable of having a glass cab at the front, what are the advantages for the UK system? Yet to hear any advantages just lots of disadvantages. ;)
 

bramling

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Well said A-Driver. I doubt you'll get a decent response from certain posters in this thread but would rather dodge the question(s) and throw up some irrelevant questions back at you instead. :roll::lol:

So let's remove the DLR/Trams comparison for a second as this is light rail capable of stopping on a sixpence. If new build trains were capable of having a glass cab at the front, what are the advantages for the UK system? Yet to hear any advantages just lots of disadvantages. ;)

I wouldn't entirely agree with what you say about the DLR. The trains don't have track brakes like, for example, Metrolink. I have never worked on the DLR, however I have worked with the Seltrac signalling system, and have a pretty good idea what the DLR PSAs do. Their role is just as safety-critical as any other train driver. They carry out safe platform dispatch (checking the train before moving off), when driving manually they need to concentrate on the road ahead possibly for staff working on the track or if examining the line, and just like any other train driver, sometimes they carry out operational procedures under instructions from the signaller during degraded working. Personally, I've never been too keen on these activities being carried out surrounded by noisy passengers where there is clearly very high potential for them to be distracted from their safety-critical duties. However, history shows the DLR does have a good safety record. Perhaps this is partly because the railway's technology is generally quite reliable, so much of the time their role is purely platform dispatch. But watching a PSA in action in the middle of a big failure can be an interesting experience.

On the subject of glass cabs, I can see both sides of the argument. From a passenger's point of view it is good to be able to see the line ahead, especially on scenic lines. Returning to the DLR, these seats are *always* first to fill, and I bet they would be popular on some scenic routes in parts of the UK, like the S&C, Devon and Cornwall branches, Leeds-Lancaster, Whitby, etc etc.

The other side of the coin is that, from a driver's point of view I'm not keen on the idea of people being able to see in to the cab. It's not that there's anything to hide, but I am generally used to a private environment. I don't believe having a glass panel would change anything I do, and could tolerate the loss of privacy providing the cab was sound-proofed enough to cut out any noise from the passengers. I agree with what others have said that there is the possibility of passengers misinterpreting certain things they see in the cab, for example on one type of LUL stock operating under Seltrac signalling, if driving manually the in-cab display is likely to flash up "Over Speed Imminent" on a very regular basis, perhaps up to 20 times just on one station-to-station run alone. This is perfectly acceptable as it simply means the driver is close to the target speed, not exceeding it - but could be very alarming to uninitiated passengers.

On balance, I can't see it happening. I don't think the benefits outweigh the potential disbenefits. There could be a case for providing a window on the secondman's side, like the way some 1st-gen DMUs sometimes could be seen running with the driver's blind down but the secondman's side up.
 
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Llama

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The first brick etc to enter the passenger compartment through both the cab window and the forward saloon window, or the first claim for mental health damage from a traumatised passenger who witnessed a fatality (and would therefore also perhaps be ordered to attend the subsequent coroner's inquest) would put paid to such things as forward viewing.
 

40129

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Something that I don't think's been mentioned thus far is that unlike 1st generation units, which had purpose built guard's compartments, on many modern trains the rear cab is used by the guard. Twitter would go into meltdown if passengers could see the guard sitting in the rear cab when he/she has finished revenue / customer service duties. There is also the small matter that guards might not want passengers seeing them cash counting
 

Minilad

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If you had a steam special running, presumably they feel the driver should not speak to the fireman.

Absolutely not the same thing at all. There is no problem with certain authorised people being in the cab and talking whilst driving. Although any professional would know when to shut up and let the driver drive. Signallers do not know what is in front of the driver or what he is doing when they make GSMR calls
 

FordFocus

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I wouldn't entirely agree with what you say about the DLR. The trains don't have track brakes like, for example, Metrolink. I have never worked on the DLR, however I have worked with the Seltrac signalling system, and have a pretty good idea what the DLR PSAs do. Their role is just as safety-critical as any other train driver. They carry out safe platform dispatch (checking the train before moving off), when driving manually they need to concentrate on the road ahead possibly for staff working on the track or if examining the line, and just like any other train driver, sometimes they carry out operational procedures under instructions from the signaller during degraded working. Personally, I've never been too keen on these activities being carried out surrounded by noisy passengers where there is clearly very high potential for them to be distracted from their safety-critical duties. However, history shows the DLR does have a good safety record. Perhaps this is partly because the railway's technology is generally quite reliable, so much of the time their role is purely platform dispatch. But watching a PSA in action in the middle of a big failure can be an interesting experience.

On the subject of glass cabs, I can see both sides of the argument. From a passenger's point of view it is good to be able to see the line ahead, especially on scenic lines. Returning to the DLR, these seats are *always* first to fill, and I bet they would be popular on some scenic routes in parts of the UK, like the S&C, Devon and Cornwall branches, Leeds-Lancaster, Whitby, etc etc.

The other side of the coin is that, from a driver's point of view I'm not keen on the idea of people being able to see in to the cab. It's not that there's anything to hide, but I am generally used to a private environment. I don't believe having a glass panel would change anything I do, and could tolerate the loss of privacy providing the cab was sound-proofed enough to cut out any noise from the passengers. I agree with what others have said that there is the possibility of passengers misinterpreting certain things they see in the cab, for example on one type of LUL stock operating under Seltrac signalling, if driving manually the in-cab display is likely to flash up "Over Speed Imminent" on a very regular basis, perhaps up to 20 times just on one station-to-station run alone. This is perfectly acceptable as it simply means the driver is close to the target speed, not exceeding it - but could be very alarming to uninitiated passengers.

On balance, I can't see it happening. I don't think the benefits outweigh the potential disbenefits. There could be a case for providing a window on the secondman's side, like the way some 1st-gen DMUs sometimes could be seen running with the driver's blind down but the secondman's side up.

I can understand the idea behind sitting at the front of DLR trains as the majority of them are elevated lines with good views of the surrounding areas (obviously open to debate) a lot of mainline services aren't elevated and offer not really much of a decent view from the front apart from ballast and graffiti overbridges. . Without going off on a tangent about safety records, the DLR was fined when someone sadly fell onto the track after an argument and the Driverless train was unable to stop (http://orr.gov.uk/news-and-media/pr...a-train-after-a-passenger-fell-onto-the-track)

I agree with you though about the disadvantages outweighing the advantages.
 

Strat-tastic

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I'm reminded of the time when I was sat looking out of the front on the latter part of the journey between Solihull and Dorridge. There we were, merrily barreling along in top gear only to round a bend and go straight through a red signal! :o Emergency brake time!

The thing is, I wasn't thinking uh-oh there may be some stationary train right round this bend which we can't avoid, more like hey this is exciting!

Oh to be 15 again :D
 

Jonfun

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And if that were today, the passenger in the front seat would be sitting there, "about to crash into the train in front, drivers just jumped out LOL" would be on Twitter before even considering any danger...
 

sprinterguy

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Very rare for me to print anything in work these days.
Well, suit yourself. :p I can't see any of the jobs that I have occupied in the last few years managing effectively without the swathes of paper that are pinned up or lying about everywhere, based on the current technology we have available. Although in my last job the railway did after a while start to rely more heavily on digitally transmitted reports than had previously been the case, which cut down somewhat on the paper documents.
 

sarahj

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Just a note for the ICE fans, the driver has the option for darkening the glass.
I was on one from Koeln to Amsterdam, and at the border where he had to drop the panto, change voltage then raise the panto, he did just this.
They also have a very relaxed attitude over there. I saw the guard pop in for a chat and at times worried that the driver was not 100% focused. And I could see all that. In the Uk that would be a no no and no doubt on you tube within moments.

Anyway, the bulkhead of a 377 is all switches and stuff. Put in glass, and where would it go?
 

transmanche

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Very interesting. I suppose in a bus passengers don't normally get a seat with a full view of what the driver is doing unlike in a coach for example.
That not too dissimilar to the cabs on T&W Metro stock. The cab is slightly less than half the width of the train and nowadays the glass in the driver's cab door is darkened so you can't see in (well you can just about make out a silhouette of the driver, but that's all).

medium.jpg
I'm not sure that any ordinary (i.e. non-enthusiast) passengers give a fig about having a forward view. I've been experimenting with opening the blinds when I'm driving the bubble cars and I've noticed nobody seems to make a beeline for the window seats at the front.
Yet my experience as a passenger on the Metro (and DLR) is the opposite. Children and teenagers will invariably rush to try and get the front seat and many a guilty-looking adult will try to beat them to it... and I doubt that they're all enthusiasts!
 

PermitToTravel

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It is considerably more fun on the DLR though than on the Metrolink, which has a dark glass cab and is more like what glass cabs on NR would be like. I rush to the front seats on both though :oops:
 

A-driver

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That not too dissimilar to the cabs on T&W Metro stock. The cab is slightly less than half the width of the train and nowadays the glass in the driver's cab door is darkened so you can't see in (well you can just about make out a silhouette of the driver, but that's all).



medium.jpg
Yet my experience as a passenger on the Metro (and DLR) is the opposite. Children and teenagers will invariably rush to try and get the front seat and many a guilty-looking adult will try to beat them to it... and I doubt that they're all enthusiasts!


But that still doesn't justify the costs, redesigns and industrial relations issues involved in providing a forward view.
 
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