now the op says the ticket was from Gobowen to Birmingham stns which is the destination point so will fall in with what i have highlighted above, thus making the ticket not valid.
Birmingham
Stations in a ticketing perspective is different from Birmingham
Group in a routeing perspective. The two groups are different ('Group' contains more stations under its remit than 'Stations') and must not be confused here.
When a ticket is issued to Birmingham Stations (or from Birmingham Stations for that matter), then the appropriate routeing point is Birmingham Group. The routeing guide is then used to determine valid routes (if not on a direct service or the shortest route) and this also shows which Birmingham Stations the ticket is valid from.
(Same sort of thing occurs with London - all of the terminals plus a few other stations are in London Group but the routeing guide ultimately determines which ones you can use - e.g. Reading to London Terminals is never valid into Fenchurch Street because no such valid route exists).
Now, the issue of where the ticket ceases to be valid is again a matter for the routeing guide. A blanket 'it is only valid until the last calling point before the train passes through Birmingham' isn't sufficient.
Take the following abstract example of a route
Code:
Fictionaltown
---------B--------
/ \
----A--------------C-------------D----
/
E--------
Say A, B, C, D, and E are five stations in an area, and the only five stations. Say B, C, and E are members of 'Fictionaltown Group' for routeing purposes but only C and E classed as 'Fictionaltown Stations' for fares purposes. Say you are on a train that stops at A, runs fast through B, before stopping at D. This situation isn't far from what's happening in this thread.
If you are travelling from A to C and the map above is in the routeing guide you may change at D instead of A if you wish. It may certainly take longer but is valid. You may also change at D and travel to E.
Now the can of worms that is 'Route Birmingham' tickets.
It is worth noting, as I've already said, that 'Route xxx Stations' does not exist. I don't have to go through the whole of Avantix Traveller to find that because the reason based on what I have said above is glaringly obvious. It would be combining a routeing Group with a set of fares Stations, and in cases where the Group is different to the Stations (such as in Birmingham) then a big problem occurs. Would travel via Aston be allowed seeing as it's in Birmingham Group but not in Birmingham Stations? A rhetorical, hypethetical question which can be answered another day I think.
So, we have that WSMR are routed either via Aston or via New Street, both of which are in Birmingham Group as we know.
You have actually already come to the same conclusion as others in this thread with
Now if the op had a ticket, ill make one up as an example using the calling points from the W&S timetable Gobowen- Leamington Spa route Birmingham then the ticket would be valid (this is because the train passes through the station, even though it does not stop).
But let's seek some further clarification over the Group stations business, and see why travel via Aston should render the Route Birmingham tickets being valid.
So, we look at the Routeing Guide instructions and see this:
NRG said:
Where the fare specifies a particular route, you may choose only those routes listed in the Guide which pass through the station shown in the route description.
Hmmm, OK. So we have to travel via 'Birmingham' station. Problem occurs here because Birmingham has many stations. Now, we are determining routeing so do we use Birmingham Stations (fares) or Birmingham Group (routeing) to see which are valid?
This is, I feel, where the crux of the problem occurs and where the division is.
There is no question of a doubt that if the train is routed via New Street that a via Birmingham ticket is valid. WSMR would be in the wrong to not accept tickets here and is a matter they should take up with RSP if they don't. Certainly if I was on that train with a 'Route Birmingham' ticket and it's not accepted as we're passing through BHM then I'd be none too happy, pointing out the window and saying 'where is this then if it's not Birmingham?'.
So, Aston now. If we're taking the fares 'Birmingham Stations' to determine routeing then that causes problems in itself. Where there is an overlap, the routeing Groups always contain the same (or more) stations than the corresponding fares Stations does. Taking fares Stations to determine routeing is silly when routeing Groups exist, not to mention restrictive.
Despite that we find a route on the map CS for Shrewsbury to Marylebone. It is impossible to avoid Birmingham. But again we have this vague thing 'Birmingham'. We're in the Routeing Guide so it is the routeing Group that is being signified. You can pass through any station in Birmingham Group on a 'Route Birmingham' ticket to validate it, this includes Aston and, as such, should be accepted.
But why then is it not accepted? It must be believed by some in RSP (whether intentionally or not) that you must go through Birmingham Stations to validate a 'Route Birmingham' ticket. As I have said, such distinction is silly - using fares Stations for routeing purposes, especially when the Routeing Guide says
NRG said:
The Routeing Guide may have to be used to find out how to reach the station shown in the route description
OK, I'll use it to find out how to get to Birmingham. Oh it only shows me how to get to Birmingham Group (including Aston) so therefore it must be that routeing on tickets means travel by routeing Groups rather than fares Stations.
Along with the requirement that the train only has to pass through and not stop, we have a win-win situation for a customer on a WSMR service with a 'Route Birmingham' ticket. Along with yorkie, I'd strongly advise WSMR to assert their case to RSP again. As has also been said, it is not in a passenger's viewpoint how the revenue from tickets is distributed. The Routeing Guide shows that the ticket is valid, as such passengers will use such tickets with the Routeing Guide being authoritative.
Despite all this anyways, we now have a situation where all 'Route Birmingham' tickets are higher in price than 'Route WSMR Trains Only' where a direct comparison exists.
The routeing guide also makes this clear:
NRG said:
Where there are other permitted routes, these may also be used for the same journey provided the same or a lower fare applies.
WSMR is a lower priced route so Route Birmingham tickets have to be honoured. Again, a further case for WSMR to add to their battle with RSP.
''Route Birmingham' tickets aren't valid on our services, sir'
'oh could you excess it to one that is valid then please?'
'that'll be.... erm nothing'
unless, of course they refuse to excess such tickets because they get no revenue share. In which case I'll put in for a refund of £120 (£130 - £10 admin fee) for my Chirk to London Terminals Route Birmingham Anytime Return...
*Incidentally whilst on this topic of Birmingham routeing I found something rather concerning: Witton to Gravelly Hill Route Not Birmingham.
Such a ticket should not even exist, and is actually valid at Birmingham New Street (!) based on what the Routeing Guide says (I'm sure I haven't missed anything). So much for 'NOT Birmingham'...
Basically technicalities:
- Shortest route always valid (in this case via Aston)
- Aston is a member of Birmingham Group
- Birmingham New Street is a member of Birmingham Group
- Unlimited travel between group stations is allowed if the origin and destination are not in the group (which they're not).
- No restriction in the easements say you can't do this.
Just shows what sort of ticketing system we have...
