WY MetroCard + South Elmsall

[mafeu]

I'm sure I've seen a post previously where a member has combined a MetroCard with a South Elmsall-Doncaster season on EC, has been challenged and successfully argued that the tickets can be used under condition 19.

Despite searching I'm at a loss to find the thread. Hopefully I'm not imagining this!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Another reason I ask is the conditions state that the user of an MCard is bound by the operator's terms of carriage. NRCoC for East Coast? I can't see any specific terms on their website.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

Was it this one?

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=1583961

 

[mafeu]

Not that thread but I'm sure Yorkie quoted someone that had challenged the validity of the ticket and EC had conceded it is valid.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Provided the train you are using passes through South Elmsall I can see no reason why the tickets would not be permitted, unless the text in Metro's leaflet Cross Boundary Bus and Train Travel can be considered a condition of their own tickets?

Train travel outside West Yorkshire will be
charged at full fare. If you want to travel
to/from points outside West Yorkshire on the
train you must ask to pay the additional fare
at the start of the journey (at the ticket office
if your journey starts at a staffed station).
This will be the full adult fare for the non-
West Yorkshire section of your journey (unless
you show entitlement to reduced fare or a
valid ticket for that section when paying).
If you do not pay the combined fares at the
start of the journey, you will be charged the
full adult fare for the entire journey.
Please note that on trains, fares may be
combined only to and from a station at which
your train makes a scheduled stop.
Where a passenger holds two or more zonal
tickets in combination or one is a rail season
ticket and one is not, then the train does not
need to call at the station where they change
from one ticket to the other. Please note that
these combinations of tickets do not apply to
services operated by CrossCountry, East
Midlands Trains or East Coast.

 

[mafeu]

I suppose the question would be then, can a MetroCard be held to this condition when the actual Conditions make no reference to the boundary leaflet. In fact, they state a user is bound by the operator's Conditions, which I'd argue in this case are NRCoC.

I'm going to have to give this a go in EC and see what the result is I think.

Provided the train you are using passes through South Elmsall I can see no reason why the tickets would not be permitted, unless the text in Metro's leaflet Cross Boundary Bus and Train Travel can be considered a condition of their own tickets?

 

[TUC]

Provided the train you are using passes through South Elmsall I can see no reason why the tickets would not be permitted, unless the text in Metro's leaflet Cross Boundary Bus and Train Travel can be considered a condition of their own tickets?

Originally Posted by Metro
Train travel outside West Yorkshire will be
charged at full fare. If you want to travel
to/from points outside West Yorkshire on the
train you must ask to pay the additional fare
at the start of the journey (at the ticket office
if your journey starts at a staffed station).
This will be the full adult fare for the non-
West Yorkshire section of your journey (unless
you show entitlement to reduced fare or a
valid ticket for that section when paying).
If you do not pay the combined fares at the
start of the journey, you will be charged the
full adult fare for the entire journey.
Please note that on trains, fares may be
combined only to and from a station at which
your train makes a scheduled stop.
Where a passenger holds two or more zonal
tickets in combination or one is a rail season
ticket and one is not, then the train does not
need to call at the station where they change
from one ticket to the other. Please note that
these combinations of tickets do not apply to
services operated by CrossCountry, East
Midlands Trains or East Coast.

Part of the discussion on this type of issue always seems to revolve around whether tickets like Metrocard is a zonal ticket for NRCoC purposes. I find it very difficult to see why it would not be.

Condition 19a of the NRCoC permits special conditions to be attached to combinations of two zonal tickets limiting their use and so Metro could apply the exclusions above in that situation. However no such proviso exists under 19c in terms of a combination of a rail season ticket and a Metrocard and it is difficult to see how Metro can claim to exclude certain TOCs on this basis.

 

[Starmill]

Metro's leaflet implies that 19(c) applies to Northern and Grand Central services (e.g. you can get a Metrocard and a Darton - Sheffield season and use Northern trains that pass through Darton without stopping) but not to XC, EC or EMT where they cross the boundaries. If kwvr45 is correct, a Metrocard and a South Elmsall to Doncaster 7 Day Season would not be valid on EC trains Wakefield - Doncaster, but presumably would be valid on this one, even though it doesn't stop at South Elmsall. As such, I don't think it can be regarded as a condition that takes precedence over NRCoC.

In my opinion, a Z1-5 Metrocard (not a season for the purpose of 19(c)) and any season from a boundary station onwards is perfectly permitted; intended, even, use of these tickets.

 

[TUC]

Metro's leaflet implies that 19(c) applies to Northern and Grand Central services (e.g. you can get a Metrocard and a Darton - Sheffield season and use Northern trains that pass through Darton without stopping) but not to XC, EC or EMT where they cross the boundaries.

I still don't understand why it would not be valid on those TOCs. If some of them did not have any stops in West Yorkshire apart from Leeds I would understand as then they may not get any revenue from the Metrocard scheme but they all stop in Wakefield.

 

[bb21]

I am not convinced that the NRCoC can be overridden like this (by giving the passengers less rights) but some people may disagree.

 

[455driver]

I am not convinced that the NRCoC can be overridden like this (by giving the passengers less rights) but some people may disagree.

As its a West Yorkshire ticket surely they can set their own T&Cs for it!

 

[John @ home]

The latest publication I can find which refers to the Terms and Conditions for MCards and MetroCards is booklet PL-017 from 27 April 2014 Price List - MCards and MetroCard Tickets & Prices, published by West Yorkshire Ticketing Co. Ltd., Wellington House, 40-50 Wellington Street, Leeds LS1 2DE; Company No. 5238694; www.m-card.co.uk

Page 11 of that booklet, in full, states:

Terms and Conditions for MCards and MetroCards

• Although correct at time of printing, this information may be subject to change at short notice
• All MCard and MetroCard multi-operator tickets may be used on virtually all ordinary stopping bus services in West Yorkshire
• Tickets permitting rail travel may be used on any train in West Yorkshire included in the public rail timetable, subject to restrictions on some cross-boundary trains
• Restrictions on use are available at www.m-card.co.uk
• Zone 6 or 7 Rail tickets are a rail product only, and do not include bus travel in either West Yorkshire or North Yorkshire but do include unlimited train travel within West Yorkshire

Please visit www.m-card.co.uk for terms and conditions.

Are these the full, current terms and conditions? Can anyone point me to the relevant page at www.m-card.co.uk for "restrictions on use"? Can anyone point me to the relevant page at www.m-card.co.uk for "terms and conditions"?

 

[Leeds1970]

Rail season ticket Donnie -south Emsall then zone 5 or student metro card to wakey/Leeds. Can only be used on northern services. Metro cards are NOT valid on either East Coast or Cross Country services (sheff via moorthorpe) south of Wakefield. To be clear it is nothing to do with conditions of carriage. It is because of legal agreements between Metro and the train operators.
Briefly – All the money from the sale of metro cards goes into a holding account. Metro is a co-signatory on the northern franchise, therefore metro products can be used on northern services either as stand alone zone cards or combined with other tickets/passes. However in the case of East Coast and Cross Country because their trains serve the Wakefield / Leeds corridor, Metro products are allowed in return for a reimbursement from the holding account based on passenger usage. Metro have two staff based out of Leeds that carry out on train ticket checks the details of which are entered into a computer and fed through to Metro’s offices. The reimbursement to train operators is based on the information they provide. On East Coast and Cross Country they only check between Leeds and Wakefield (for Leeds to Wakefield tickets) so by using a combination of tickets E/C and X/C would still only receive payment for the Leeds to Wakefield part of the journey . -obviously E/C and X/C are not going to carry you for nothing hence metro products are invalid south of Wakefield and you would be charged Wakefield to/from donnie /sheff.

 

[yorkie]

Rail season ticket Donnie -south Emsall then zone 5 or student metro card to wakey/Leeds. Can only be used on northern services. Metro cards are NOT valid on either East Coast or Cross Country services (sheff via moorthorpe) south of Wakefield. To be clear it is nothing to do with conditions of carriage. It is because of legal agreements between Metro and the train operators.

Ticket validity is determined by the NRCoC.

Legal agreements between Train Companies are of no concern to passengers.

Briefly – All the money from the sale of metro cards goes into a holding account. Metro is a co-signatory on the northern franchise, therefore metro products can be used on northern services either as stand alone zone cards or combined with other tickets/passes. However in the case of East Coast and Cross Country because their trains serve the Wakefield / Leeds corridor, Metro products are allowed in return for a reimbursement from the holding account based on passenger usage. Metro have two staff based out of Leeds that carry out on train ticket checks the details of which are entered into a computer and fed through to Metro’s offices. The reimbursement to train operators is based on the information they provide. On East Coast and Cross Country they only check between Leeds and Wakefield (for Leeds to Wakefield tickets) so by using a combination of tickets E/C and X/C would still only receive payment for the Leeds to Wakefield part of the journey . -obviously E/C and X/C are not going to carry you for nothing hence metro products are invalid south of Wakefield and you would be charged Wakefield to/from donnie /sheff.

This is interesting stuff for people who are interested in finances, and I thank you for posting this for purely that reason, but is of no concern to passengers who wish to simply undertake a journey.

EC get no revenue for a Huntingdon-Peterborough Season ticket, yet they are compelled to accept such a Season in conjunction with a London-Huntingdon day single/return ticket on a non-stop London-Peterborough service.

Revenue allocation does not determine ticket validity.

 

[185143]

Rail season ticket Donnie -south Emsall then zone 5 or student metro card to wakey/Leeds. Can only be used on northern services. Metro cards are NOT valid on either East Coast or Cross Country services (sheff via moorthorpe) south of Wakefield. To be clear it is nothing to do with conditions of carriage. It is because of legal agreements between Metro and the train operators.
Briefly – All the money from the sale of metro cards goes into a holding account. Metro is a co-signatory on the northern franchise, therefore metro products can be used on northern services either as stand alone zone cards or combined with other tickets/passes. However in the case of East Coast and Cross Country because their trains serve the Wakefield / Leeds corridor, Metro products are allowed in return for a reimbursement from the holding account based on passenger usage. Metro have two staff based out of Leeds that carry out on train ticket checks the details of which are entered into a computer and fed through to Metro’s offices. The reimbursement to train operators is based on the information they provide. On East Coast and Cross Country they only check between Leeds and Wakefield (for Leeds to Wakefield tickets) so by using a combination of tickets E/C and X/C would still only receive payment for the Leeds to Wakefield part of the journey . -obviously E/C and X/C are not going to carry you for nothing hence metro products are invalid south of Wakefield and you would be charged Wakefield to/from donnie /sheff.

I had the two staff on my train once! Must say, as a Manc is was very strange having people coming down the train asking for tickets and not selling them! My North West rover made a good conversion though!

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Ticket validity is determined by the NRCoC.....

Are you sure about that? Where, in the NRCoC, does it tell me the validity of a Metrocard?

 

[yorkie]

Condition 19 still applies.

 

[ASharpe]

Are you sure about that? Where, in the NRCoC, does it tell me the validity of a Metrocard?

10. Tickets valid only in trains of particular Train Companies
The validity of a ticket may:
a) be restricted to; or
b) prohibit
travel in the trains of a particular Train Company or Train Companies. Any such restriction
or prohibition will be shown on the ticket.

My last Student+ ticket had no TOC restriction printed on it.

And the zones the ticket are valid for are clearly printed on a metro ticket. And maps of zones are at stations (I can't think of any stations without).

 

[TUC]

The latest publication I can find which refers to the Terms and Conditions for MCards and MetroCards is booklet PL-017 from 27 April 2014 Price List - MCards and MetroCard Tickets & Prices, published by West Yorkshire Ticketing Co. Ltd., Wellington House, 40-50 Wellington Street, Leeds LS1 2DE; Company No. 5238694; www.m-card.co.uk

Page 11 of that booklet, in full, states:Are these the full, current terms and conditions? Can anyone point me to the relevant page at www.m-card.co.uk for "restrictions on use"? Can anyone point me to the relevant page at www.m-card.co.uk for "terms and conditions"?

http://www.m-card.co.uk/get-mcard/mcard/#terms has a set of terms and conditions but they say surprisingly little about validity. They say far more about how the ticket should be used than its validity.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Condition 19 still applies.

In what way does Condition 19 tell me the validity of a Metrocard?

10. Tickets valid only in trains of particular Train Companies
The validity of a ticket may:
a) be restricted to; or
b) prohibit
travel in the trains of a particular Train Company or Train Companies. Any such restriction
or prohibition will be shown on the ticket.

My last Student+ ticket had no TOC restriction printed on it.

And the zones the ticket are valid for are clearly printed on a metro ticket. And maps of zones are at stations (I can't think of any stations without).

Which company's services are prohibited on a Metrocard?

 

[TUC]

. Metro cards are NOT valid on either East Coast or Cross Country services (sheff via moorthorpe) south of Wakefield. To be clear it is nothing to do with conditions of carriage. It is because of legal agreements between Metro and the train operators.
Briefly – All the money from the sale of metro cards goes into a holding account. Metro is a co-signatory on the northern franchise, therefore metro products can be used on northern services either as stand alone zone cards or combined with other tickets/passes. However in the case of East Coast and Cross Country because their trains serve the Wakefield / Leeds corridor, Metro products are allowed in return for a reimbursement from the holding account based on passenger usage.

It can't be based just on Metro being a co-signatory on the Northern franchise because that would not explain Metrocards' validity on TPE services.

 

[ASharpe]

In what way does Condition 19 tell me the validity of a Metrocard?

Ok, it doesn't tell you the area. But:

Which company's services are prohibited on a Metrocard?

None - as no restrictions are printed on the Metrocard.

 

[bb21]

In what way does Condition 19 tell me the validity of a Metrocard?

I think the real question here is, "Can the specific terms of a National Rail ticket give you less rights than the NRCoC?"

Now we may carry on the debate.

 

[Starmill]

A bizarre debate about a point disputed only by those who want passengers to pay more for their journeys because the TOCs in question feel like it. IMO it's relatively clear what you can and cannot do with an Mcard.

 

[TUC]

It can't be based just on Metro being a co-signatory on the Northern franchise because that would not explain Metrocards' validity on TPE services.

And also Grand Central and East Midlands Trains services in terms of use between stations they call at in West Yorkshire.

 

[mafeu]

Some good discussion! TUC, in my opinion, ticket validity is covered by the clause in Metro's T and Cs that states the user is bound by the operator's condition, which would be the NRCoC on rail. The NRCoC validates the combination.

The important question for me is what is the agreement between Metro and the user. Is it reasonable to expect the user to be aware of this leaflet? I would argue that as long as they've read the Conditions, they should not be expected to know any better given their ticket stated Zone 1-5

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I think the real question here is, "Can the specific terms of a National Rail ticket give you less rights than the NRCoC?"

Now we may carry on the debate.

Which terms and which conditions are you refering to?

If we say that the Metrocard is valid on East Coast between Leeds and Wakefield only, then the ticket does not breach condition ten (it is NOT prohibited from, or restricted to, the services of a particular train company) and it would not be valid for a 19c split on East Cost services at South Elmsall (it is not valid on East Coast between Wakefield and South Elmsall).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Ok, it doesn't tell you the area. But:



None - as no restrictions are printed on the Metrocard.

And if restrictions were printed on the ticket what TOC restriction would be printed?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

A bizarre debate about a point disputed only by those who want passengers to pay more for their journeys because the TOCs in question feel like it....

Interesting point. Do people/TOCs want the op to pay more for the journey, or does the op want to pay less?

 

[TUC]

I think the real question here is, "Can the specific terms of a National Rail ticket give you less rights than the NRCoC?"

Now we may carry on the debate.

Which terms and which conditions are you refering to?

If we say that the Metrocard is valid on East Coast between Leeds and Wakefield only, then the ticket does not breach condition ten (it is NOT prohibited from, or restricted to, the services of a particular train company) and it would not be valid for a 19c split on East Cost services at South Elmsall (it is not valid on East Coast between Wakefield and South Elmsall).

if Metro wanted to make Metro cards valid only to each service's final calling point in West Yorkshire they could do that. The mystery is, if that is their intention, why not simply state that in publicity, just as they could simply state which TOCs the ticket is valid with.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

if Metro wanted to make Metro cards valid only to each service's final calling point in West Yorkshire they could do that. The mystery is, if that is their intention, why not simply state that in publicity, just as they could simply state which TOCs the ticket is valid with.

Fair point, they could. Does the Cross-Boundary Travel leaflet (and .pdf) constitute publicity?

 

[bb21]

Which terms and which conditions are you refering to?

If we say that the Metrocard is valid on East Coast between Leeds and Wakefield only, then the ticket does not breach condition ten (it is NOT prohibited from, or restricted to, the services of a particular train company) and it would not be valid for a 19c split on East Cost services at South Elmsall (it is not valid on East Coast between Wakefield and South Elmsall).

If the Metrocard is not valid for a Condition 19(c) split with any operator, then this is surely giving a passenger less rights than the NRCoC, given that it is an interavailable product?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

If the Metrocard is not valid for a Condition 19(c) split with any operator, then this is surely giving a passenger less rights than the NRCoC, given that it is an interavailable product?

For any operator? Possibly, but in this case it would be valid on Northern. 19(c) does not require the passenger to get a non-stop train.