First win Intercity West Coast franchise

[Stats]

FirstGroup issued a tender yesterday for the supply of rail passenger seats. The tender is for between £15m and £20m of new seats for existing and future FirstGroup train operating companies for 4 years.

 

[Hazlehead]

Can they physically do that ?
What I mean is that there are "obligatory" maintenance schedules and the trains can't physically do any more mileage can they , or are they doubling services ?

I'm just not sure how they can half break the fleet that's all.

As far as the additional train investment goes , 21 baby pendos , why would Dft be waxing lyrical about First adding 12 extra trains when Virgin "proposed" 21 ? That doesn't make much sense to me. Would Dft really set themselves up as sitting ducks like this ?

Virgin planned on replacing all 21 voyagers so just replacing the sane amount. First will keep all 21 voyagers plus the new 11 trains so 32 trains in totalas oppose to virgins 21

 

[Wolfie]

Just had a thought - are Virgin going to run their units into the ground before hand over in hope of First inheriting a half-broken fleet so Beardie can point at them and go "A-hah! Told you so!" when they run into reliability issues?

*dons tin-foil hat*

Since Alstom do the maintainance under contract and will continue to do so, what do you think?

 

[Wath Yard]

Admittedly most of my once-a-week journeys to and from London were in first. The onboard crews were exceptional - particularly the Preston teams who usually manned the services that I boarded at LTV.

Customer Service and culture were the things that I had an interest in, in my day job. The way that Virign's on board teams worked together and engaged with their customers was remarkable - I often wished some of it could have been injected into the public sector organisation that I worked for.

When my organsation eventually 'banned' first class travel, although obviously not as visible, the staff were no less focused.

What I find completely dispiriting is the belief by some here (and in the Railway press) that in December, you'll be able to stick a new uniform on these people and everything will be the same. It won't, and to suggest it will be mises the point that a 'vanilla' get what you're given railway is no longer what the customer wants.

The chattiness of staff in 1st class is worth £700 million over 13 years is it? How many zeroes after the decimal point do we need to represent the percentage of the population who travel 1st class on Virgin Trains?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Just had a thought - are Virgin going to run their units into the ground before hand over in hope of First inheriting a half-broken fleet so Beardie can point at them and go "A-hah! Told you so!" when they run into reliability issues?

Virgin Rail Projects (separate from the VT franchise) has a contract to complete the lengthening of the Pendolinos, even if it extends beyond the franchise expiry date.
The contracts with Alstom ensure that full maintenance will continue (including H3 overhaul etc).

 

[Lampshade]

That petition is now the third most signed since they started :?

 

[Failed Unit]

Turnaround times could be tightened, but it looks like Virgin are proposing roughly the same level of service as First but with around nine fewer trains - even if you start "stepping back" at Euston, I can't see how that'd be feasible.

Is the "we would get rid of Voyagers" stuff just smokescreen/ misunderstanding?

I find that hard to work out myself, not sure if trying to intergrate the diagrams better may help, ie you could have a London - Glasgow - Birmingham diagram. This would of course mean 6 coach pendo's going to London but off peak this will be sufficent capacity on many routes. Likewise joining up the London - Birmingham and Birmingham - Scotland daigrams may help. But the maths doesn't work.

Direct to Stirling? Is that and ORCATs raid on East Coast. I am sure with the slack in East Coast diagrams they could easily respond to that. Take for example the 0800 London - Edinburgh service, arrives (1225) It is not needed until the 1400 Edinburgh - London service, (although it could be pushed back to 1430) if the 0900 service covers the 1400 return. East Coast could make a return to Stirling in that time with no extra stock.

 

[dvboy]

If Virgin were to win and were replacing the Voyagers outright, where would they go? CrossCountry?

In my opinion CrossCountry need the rolling stock more than West Coast anyway, but I'm not sure Baby Pendos would solve WC's capacity problems, perhaps somewhere in the middle would have been better for both bids - order the new trains, and give some but not all Voyagers to XC?

 

[dave59]

Virgin planned on replacing all 21 voyagers so just replacing the sane amount. First will keep all 21 voyagers plus the new 11 trains so 32 trains in totalas oppose to virgins 21

Blackpool and Bolton will be electrified by 2016 so keeping the 21 Voyagers does not make sense. A larger fleet of 6 car Pendolinos would be required to make use of the new Lancs electrification.

 

[Wath Yard]

If Virgin were to win and were replacing the Voyagers outright, where would they go? CrossCountry?

In my opinion CrossCountry need the rolling stock more than West Coast anyway, but I'm not sure Baby Pendos would solve WC's capacity problems, perhaps somewhere in the middle would have been better for both bids - order the new trains, and give some but not all Voyagers to XC?

Nobody would be giving any trains to anybody, except back to their owning ROSCO, who would then have to try and find someone to take them.

Spare Voyagers doesn't automatically mean extra Voyagers on XC. I expect the XC franchise will be tendered on a similar basis to the ICWC one, where the DfT will specify a minimum service level and the bidders will be able to introduce more stock and services if they wish, but at their risk.

 

[EM2]

I personally haven't had any problems with Virgin Trains or First Group.

We just need to let First get on with the job & if it goes belly up, then the franchise will be re-let.

Pretty much my thoughts on the matter, with the proviso that Virgin should just be graceful losers.

 

[tbtc]

I find that hard to work out myself, not sure if trying to intergrate the diagrams better may help, ie you could have a London - Glasgow - Birmingham diagram. This would of course mean 6 coach pendo's going to London but off peak this will be sufficent capacity on many routes. Likewise joining up the London - Birmingham and Birmingham - Scotland daigrams may help. But the maths doesn't work.

Direct to Stirling? Is that and ORCATs raid on East Coast. I am sure with the slack in East Coast diagrams they could easily respond to that. Take for example the 0800 London - Edinburgh service, arrives (1225) It is not needed until the 1400 Edinburgh - London service, (although it could be pushed back to 1430) if the 0900 service covers the 1400 return. East Coast could make a return to Stirling in that time with no extra stock.

Good thinking.

Blackpool and Bolton will be electrified by 2016 so keeping the 21 Voyagers does not make sense. A larger fleet of 6 car Pendolinos would be required to make use of the new Lancs electrification.

You'd need diesels for the increased Bangor service plus the new Shrewsbury service though. I presume that you could do this without needing to keep all twenty one Voyagers (unless every Chester service is going to be ten coaches?), but then I suppose we don't know the frequencies (is Shrewsbury only going to be one a day or every couple of hours?). Maybe the Bolton trips aren't via Manchester but are via Wigan? Dunno.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Nobody would be giving any trains to anybody, except back to their owning ROSCO, who would then have to try and find someone to take them.

Spare Voyagers doesn't automatically mean extra Voyagers on XC. I expect the XC franchise will be tendered on a similar basis to the ICWC one, where the DfT will specify a minimum service level and the bidders will be able to introduce more stock and services if they wish, but at their risk.

We've only got three and a half years left of the current XC franchise - the next one might see some Voyagers replaced (if Manchester - Southampton is properly electrified before long)

 

[EM2]

Something that has just occurred to me.
Virgin only bid on long-distance Inter-City franchises. If they want to prove themselves as a customer-focused operator (which is what they trumpet themselves as), why do they not bid for a commuter route, such as Thameslink or Greater Anglia?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

We've only got three and a half years left of the current XC franchise - the next one might see some Voyagers replaced (if Manchester - Southampton is properly electrified before long)

All the Voyagers are off-lease at the end of XC franchise so the new franchisee (if they keep the same map) will have a blank sheet of paper..

 

[tbtc]

All the Voyagers are off-lease at the end of XC franchise so the new franchisee (if they keep the same map) will have a blank sheet of paper..

They won't have long to arrange replacements, if the franchise is only awarded a few months before hand though

 

[jon0844]

Something that has just occurred to me.
Virgin only bid on long-distance Inter-City franchises. If they want to prove themselves as a customer-focused operator (which is what they trumpet themselves as), why do they not bid for a commuter route, such as Thameslink or Greater Anglia?

Because they like to cherry pick, just as they do for their airline. And that's why they can control how they're perceived - as they won't take big risks to their brand.

When Virgin supports a new venture (often owned and managed totally separate to Virgin, so Virgin just charges to lend its name and supply Sir Richard for a few PR gigs to get things going), look how quick Virgin gets out if it isn't going well. They've tried loads of things over the years that have failed.

There's nothing wrong with that way of doing things either. I love Virgin Atlantic (but was disappointed with their planes to Las Vegas - like going back in time) and would always fly Virgin over another airline if I could. I like other brands (I'd sign with Virgin Media if there was cable here, for high-speed broadband and to get TiVo) but I feel Virgin has done a lot of harm with its handling of Virgin Trains.

I would have expected the company to go graciously and then bid (and hopefully win) the ECML franchise, but now it's all a mess.

 

[tbtc]

Something that has just occurred to me.
Virgin only bid on long-distance Inter-City franchises. If they want to prove themselves as a customer-focused operator (which is what they trumpet themselves as), why do they not bid for a commuter route, such as Thameslink or Greater Anglia?

Running something like Thameslink is everyday, humdrum... Virgin want their brand only associated with fun/ sexy/ glamourous things (cinema, television, planes, phones etc).

Having your brand associated with commuter trains would devalue the "prestige" of the "premium" product that they like to think they offer.

125mph trains fit in with the "exciting" Virgin brand - they leave the "boring" stuff for Stagecoach.

 

[EM2]

^^^
My thoughts exactly, but I think it's revealing that they won't bid for something where their supposed 'customer service' will take a kicking.

 

[David10]

Direct to Stirling? Is that and ORCATs raid on East Coast.

ORCATS raid on ScotRail maybe, but not East Coast they only have one service in each direction calling at Stirling.

 

[swt_passenger]

They won't have long to arrange replacements, if the franchise is only awarded a few months before hand though

They'd only need to replace them if the incoming francisee didn't wish to re-negotiate and continue the lease. It would be better explained as they are required to be leased by Arriva for use on XC until at least 2016. That doesn't mean they have to stop being used in 2016, as LNW-GW Joint's post could imply, because nearly all normal rolling stock leases are end dated at franchise expiry anyway. VWC Pendolinos and Voyagers are an exception, because DfT have guaranteed they have to be used by the incoming franchisee until 2022 and 2016 respectively.

 

[Ferret]

VWC Pendolinos and Voyagers are an exception, because DfT have guaranteed they have to be used by the incoming franchisee until 2022 and 2016 respectively.

A fact probably lost on most of the signatories of the e-petition.......

 

[swt_passenger]

A fact probably lost on most of the signatories of the e-petition.......

Indeed - the trains effectively belong to the route, not Virgin, as we've been saying all along.

 

[Holly]

They'd only need to replace them if the incoming francisee didn't wish to re-negotiate and continue the lease. It would be better explained as they are required to be leased by Arriva for use on XC until at least 2016. That doesn't mean they have to stop being used in 2016, as LNW-GW Joint's post could imply, because nearly all normal rolling stock leases are end dated at franchise expiry anyway. VWC Pendolinos and Voyagers are an exception, because DfT have guaranteed they have to be used by the incoming franchisee until 2022 and 2016 respectively.

Aren't the Pendos owned by the ROSCO?
Couldn't the ROSCO choose to sell the Pendos to Virgin (for export) instead of entering into a new lease with a lessee judged to be risky?

 

[MK Tom]

Aren't the Pendos owned by the ROSCO?
Couldn't the ROSCO choose to sell the Pendos to Virgin (for export) instead of entering into a new lease with a lessee judged to be risky?

It's not risky to the ROSCO - if the operator defaults the stock just passes to DOR and the ROSCO carries on as though nothing happened.

Besides I think any movement of rolling stock between operators has to be signed off on by the DfT, at least anything as major as that.

 

[Pen Mill]

Aren't the Pendos owned by the ROSCO?
Couldn't the ROSCO choose to sell the Pendos to Virgin (for export) instead of entering into a new lease with a lessee judged to be risky?

Backed by the Dft for the route until 2022 so no.

 

[The Ham]

(I'd sign with Virgin Media if there was cable here, for high-speed broadband and to get TiVo)

There are proberbly a fair few Virgin Media (VM) staff who live in the village where the head office is who would like to sign up for their services, but there is no cable there either!

However someone I know who works for VM gets a lot of stick from people who have VM whenever they have a problem (basicly because they get no where with the customer service department), which does seam to be semi often.

Although to be fair, the VM employee does do what they can to sort out the complaints (i.e. raise the matter with the relevent manengers).

I know it is a little off topic, but it does show that a company with the Virgin brand may not have amazing customer service and that it very much depends on the staff that you deal with (i.e. some go out of there way to be helpful, whilst others do just enough to do what they need to do) but that would be true of any company (including First).

 

[old thumper]

It seams now that Virgin has raised concerns for some time over the invitation to tender.

see here:
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/virgin-raised-concerns-earlier-074220466.html

Virgin 'raised concerns earlier'

Sir Richard Branson has denied claims made by the Transport Secretary that he only raised concerns over the rail franchising system after Virgin lost the bid to continue running the West Coast Main Line.

In a letter to the Financial Times, the Virgin boss said he has been in contact with the Department for Transport for "more than two years" over the process.

Last month the Government announced that Virgin Trains had lost out to FirstGroup in the bidding war to run a new 13-year franchise of the line from December.

Justine Greening said last week the process had been "fair and well-established", and the FT reported she said Virgin "raised no concerns with [the] process until it emerged that they had lost the bid".

Sir Richard wrote: "The truth is we did and have been in dialogue with the Department for Transport for more than two years on the issues around the invitation to tender.

"Furthermore, we had expressed our views to the Conservatives in several meetings while they were in opposition.

"In particular, we focused on the assessment and deliverability of risks involved in such long and volatile franchises, as well as seeking assurances on our long held view that bids were typically won by aggressive revenue commitments from bidders relying on good spreadsheet skills rather than good rail business sense."

 

[WatcherZero]

Bransons hit back at allegations hes only crying foul because he lost, he claims hes raised the issue numerous times over the last two years during the tendering development process and consultations, even as far back as holding private briefings with the Conservative party over the issue when they were in opposition.

 

[Pen Mill]

Bransons hit back at allegations hes only crying foul because he lost, he claims hes raised the issue numerous times over the last two years during the tendering development process and consultations, even as far back as holding private briefings with the Conservative party over the issue when they were in opposition.

Anybody connected with it should be prohibited from saying anything while the judicial review is on.

 

[tbtc]

Bransons hit back at allegations hes only crying foul because he lost, he claims hes raised the issue numerous times over the last two years during the tendering development process and consultations, even as far back as holding private briefings with the Conservative party over the issue when they were in opposition.

So now he's leaking the fact that he's been having private briefings with politicians?

Armando Iannucci would struggle to write this...