Trapped in train doors

[jon0844]

I am not saying they'd be liable but merely that CCTV was installed to cover the help point, as is the case all over LU, then FCC allows a coffee kiosk to block it and create the perfect place for people to hide from view from passengers entering and leaving the station.

Seems rather stupid, whether they've got a legal obligation or not.

In fact, the other issue is the help point is not visible to people in an emergency unless they already know where it is.

Perhaps this discussion should break away to another thread now?

 

[Kneedown]

I'm not going to make comment one way or another as i wasn't present, but, correct me if i'm wrong, the OP states that she was in the process of manouvering the double buggy off the train before the hustle alarm sounded.

Did the doors close before the hustle alarm sounded?
If so that would indicate that someone caught or pressed the door close button adjacent to the door in question.
I've seen it happen no end of times when someone struggling with a large, heavy or awkward object accidentaly leans on, or catches the close button, or others trying to squeeze past do the same, and the doors suddenly close on them, naturally causing panic, until they either force themselves out or someone presses the open button.
It seems to be a popular passtime for groups of high spirited youngsters deliberately trying to trap their mates in the doors.

As i said, i'm not saying this did or didn't happen, but could it be a possibility?

 

[jon0844]

The buttons are quite hard to accidentally press on a 317 as they need to be held a short time, and pressed quite firmly (they're the old type, and possibly the only FCC stock that hasn't got new buttons that are illuminated).

 

[ryan125hst]

I watched this video a few days ago and believe it is relevent to the thread:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ur_O1tkuzQ (from 1:08)

The young boy has boarded the train, and the man (presumably his father) is boarding the train with a young child in his arms. He is clearly concerned about the doors closing as he has his hand by them. As he is still getting on the train, and with the rest of his family (i'm guessing) approaching the door, the hustle alarm sounds. Another boy then tries to push a pushchair into the train, but the doors close on it, resulting in the man forcing the doors open to prevent it from becoming trapped. The doors try to close again a few times before the driver re-releases them and the rest of the family board the train.

Admittedly, the boy shouldn't have boarded the train when the hustle alarms were sounding, and the man had to violently force the doors open as a result of his actions, but I am suprised that the driver closed the doors as, on the London Underground, the platforms are fitted with CCTV. The hustle alarm sounds as the man is boarding the train, and the boy (and the rest of the family) is following him.

Do you think that the driver did not check correctly? It is obvious later in the video that the person recording the video is in the first carriage of the train. Surely the driver would have been able to see them boarding?

 

[VauxhallandI]

I watched this video a few days ago and believe it is relevent to the thread:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ur_O1tkuzQ (from 1:08)

The young boy has boarded the train, and the man (presumably his father) is boarding the train with a young child in his arms. He is clearly concerned about the doors closing as he has his hand by them. As he is still getting on the train, and with the rest of his family (i'm guessing) approaching the door, the hustle alarm sounds. Another boy then tries to push a pushchair into the train, but the doors close on it, resulting in the man forcing the doors open to prevent it from becoming trapped. The doors try to close again a few times before the driver re-releases them and the rest of the family board the train.

Admittedly, the boy shouldn't have boarded the train when the hustle alarms were sounding, and the man had to violently force the doors open as a result of his actions, but I am suprised that the driver closed the doors as, on the London Underground, the platforms are fitted with CCTV. The hustle alarm sounds as the man is boarding the train, and the boy (and the rest of the family) is following him.

Do you think that the driver did not check correctly? It is obvious later in the video that the person recording the video is in the first carriage of the train. Surely the driver would have been able to see them boarding?

I'm sure there will be a simple explanation.....

 

[michael769]

It is wasy seeing a video like that to be critical of the driver, but we must consider that we have a very different view of the incident to what the driver does, how can we judge what the driver could see?

I did notice that there were two people in the trains cab, could distraction have played a role? Impossile for us to say!

 

[VauxhallandI]

There you go, it wasn't the drivers fault as he was talking to someone else.

 

[A-driver]

That video actually quite clearly shows its not the driver at error or the passengers but bad timing.

Once the man has started boarding (bearing in mind the driver would have a very narrow 'corridor' of vision of the edge of the platform) the doors are closed as the man would appear to be the last one boarding. Then (ever so slightly after the hustle alarm has sounded) the pram is pushed on-bear in mind that there is a second or so from the driver starting to push the door close button to when the process would take effect.

I can't see how anyone can tell at what point the driver re releases as you can't tell-they hold the doors open.

Drivers are normally instructed never to re release unless in an emergency-a stuck pram in this clip isn't an emergency as there are people there holding the doors open anyway. If the driver did re release it would take a second or two anyway-human thinking time, reflexes, pausing to check you re release on the correct side etc.

I can't see how people can assume the driver is at fault in this clip-nor the punters. It's just bad timing all around.

 

[A-driver]

In fact, on re watching that clip, the pushchair is the platform side of the yellow line when the hustle alarm sounds so I very much doubt the driver would be able to see it in the monitors.

 

[bronzeonion]

My friend who normally does this journey alone did take the buggy off backwards, however the gap is still very large to negotiate. I bent down to lift the front wheel onto the platform, it was here that the doors closed. I believe that there was plenty of buggy visible on the outside to have been seen by the driver. I'm personally very inexperienced regarding train journeys, however my friend is a seasoned passenger! Unfortunately this train appeared to have no guard which, I'm certain, would have prevented this incident - cutbacks perhaps? But that's a whole other discussion! The station is also very small and unmanned.

Yes cutbacks indeed! Done ages ago under British Rail

Nothing stopping FCC bringing them back however

 

[Mojo]

I can't see how anyone can tell at what point the driver re releases as you can't tell-they hold the doors open.

You can tell the point at which the Train Operator releases the doors as you can hear the chimes which sound when the doors open.

If the driver did re release it would take a second or two anyway-human thinking time, reflexes, pausing to check you re release on the correct side etc.

Agreed, especially as the incident happened at the doors right behind the cab. Although checking doors open on the right side is less of an issue on the Underground as Correct Side Door Enable prevents the doors being operated on the wrong side.

One good thing about platform-mounted CCTV (as used on the Underground, including the train in this video) as opposed to bodyside CCTV is that it affords Train Operators a far wider field of vision.

 

[A-driver]

You can tell the point at which the Train Operator releases the doors as you can hear the chimes which sound when the doors open.


Agreed, especially as the incident happened at the doors right behind the cab. Although checking doors open on the right side is less of an issue on the Underground as Correct Side Door Enable prevents the doors being operated on the wrong side.

One good thing about platform-mounted CCTV (as used on the Underground, including the train in this video) as opposed to bodyside CCTV is that it affords Train Operators a far wider field of vision.

I can see now the point where the doors are re released and it backs up what I say-a second or two to get them open again. But the driver will probably be waiting to see if they get the pram in on their own before re releasing anyway.

I have had buggies forced on at the last min and won't re release if it looks like people are holding the doors open for it-I just let them get on with it. As I say, I only re release in an emergency. And my manager and TOC will back me up with all that before the 'experts' on here start up!

The position of the doors in relation to the drivers cab shouldn't make any difference at all with CCTV dispatch. And whilst platform mounted cameras give a wider view it still won't show much beyond the yellow line-short of seeing those exact CCTV cameras we won't know for sure the specific view of that set of doors. Some doors will have a better view than others.

Plus when looking at multiple doors on CCTV you can't see them all together so the drivers eyes may have been on a different area of the train when the door close was pressed.

It's very difficult to explain all this to people who don't drive trains and deal with these situations 80+ times every working day. It's not as simple and clear cut as it seems.

 

[Kettledrum]

Well I can confirm that a notice has gone up at all signing on points reminding drivers to check all doors are clear and the driver involved gave his version of events, they will have confirms everything with CCTV and the trains data recorder but the driver wasn't taken off driving duties or anything.

As has already been said, the train wasn't moved, or attempted to be moved, with you in the doors so its not really seen as a serious safety issue.

In some industries this would be recorded as a near miss and treated as such so that lessons could be learnt. I'm really pleased it's been properly looked at by the company and appropriate action taken.

I was surprised at the comments on this forum that suggested it wasn't a serious issue, because it could potentially have been.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Both the incident in the OP, and the H&C YouTube video go to show that whilst the time between the alarm sounding and the doors closing is fine for most people to react to- there seems to be an issue with family groups and particularly those with pushchairs. Maybe it would be an idea to have a slightly longer interval between the alarm sounding and the doors closing- maybe just at off-peak times when families are more likely to be travelling. Though I suppose that might create more problems than it solves...

 

[A-driver]

In some industries this would be recorded as a near miss and treated as such so that lessons could be learnt. I'm really pleased it's been properly looked at by the company and appropriate action taken.

I was surprised at the comments on this forum that suggested it wasn't a serious issue, because it could potentially have been.

As has been said many times, there was no danger of it being a serious issue. The train could not have moved with the doors open, the driver clearly took didn't attempt to move the train and re opened the doors on realising the problem. And the doors arnt that strong to cause any real injury.

 

[sirhc]

It would appear that there have been frequent problems with FCC's older rolling stock doors either not opening or closing whilst passengers are exiting train
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
It would be interesting to try to establish how many complaints they have received and ignored, it would appear that this is a fairly frequent problem
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I am personally interested in how many members have come across people who have got caught in FCC train doors whilst alighting from their trains

 

[BestWestern]

It would appear that there have been frequent problems with FCC's older rolling stock doors either not opening or closing whilst passengers are exiting train

It would be interesting to try to establish how many complaints they have received and ignored, it would appear that this is a fairly frequent problem

I am personally interested in how many members have come across people who have got caught in FCC train doors whilst alighting from their trains

To be fair to FCC however, sometimes it has to be done this way, though we would all agree it isn't ideal. How many people get clobbered by doors closing on the Tube? The situation is very similar, extremely busy trains often with people refusing to stand back and allow the doors to close because they won't wait 10 mins for the next one. On a packed platform sometimes the only way to halt the hoards of people trying to force their way in is to close the doors; I've done it and so will have most mainline Guards and DOO Drivers. Provided you maintain your vigilance to ensure that nobody gets hurt, it's about the most effective way of doing things.

Having said that, a badly behaved mass of people is a different scenario to somebody just being impatient with the close button or simply not looking properly. Whether it is a big deal depends much on the specifics of the situation.

 

[A-driver]

It would appear that there have been frequent problems with FCC's older rolling stock doors either not opening or closing whilst passengers are exiting train
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
It would be interesting to try to establish how many complaints they have received and ignored, it would appear that this is a fairly frequent problem
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I am personally interested in how many members have come across people who have got caught in FCC train doors whilst alighting from their trains

As the poster above said, its largely due to the fact passengers won't wait for the next train. Take highbury and islington or old street in the evening peak. A constant flow of people. And if you hear a tube running into the adjacent platform you hurry the door closing as if you have them open when the tube arrives then you are Garunteed to sit in the platform for another 2mins delaying the entire peak whilst people try to squeeze on.

Then the amount of late runners in the morning peak at every station - people jumping through the doors after the hustle alarm has started-often kids/buggy/suitcase first.

And you have the 'clown car' situation at some stations such as Hatfield where everyone getting off dose so from the same set of doors-a few people get off from the front coaches, everyone else from the back. You see a gap in flow, count to 4 or 5, close doors and suddenly more people appear trying to get off shouting at you for closing the doors on them!

 

[sirhc]

The incident that I am personally aware of happened on the Peterborough line at Huntingdon with the older rolling stock. there were a handful of passengers trying to get out at Huntingdon. The nearest door failed to open and the passengers went to the next one to exit. As they were doing so with at least two people still inside the doors closed on my Wife trapping her. An alert passenger on the platform upon seeing this went to her rescue and freed her. This was reported to FCC Platform Staff who failed to record it and a subsequent report to FCC was ignored. This was a driver only train who was using CCTV to ensure safe exit and entry. He failed to see my Wife trapped and reluctantly FCC have since admitted liability. This is not dis-similar to Linzi Burns experience with her twins.

 

[kieron]

Plus when looking at multiple doors on CCTV you can't see them all together so the drivers eyes may have been on a different area of the train when the door close was pressed.

Expecting someone to check that 24 doors are clear right now on a busy platform seems like rather a tall order, so I wonder if it would be possible to change the technology to make it easier, or to change the process so the driver isn't asked to do so much at once.

I wonder if there have been any studies into where drivers (in this case) are actually looking throughout the process. I feel there should have been.

 

[Skoodle]

On the Overground 378s on the East London Line, even though it's not policy to do so I often use internal CCTV to give me a better overall picture. Especially in places like Shoreditch High Street in the mornings. There, everyone exits through the second door in the first carriage as it is next to the exit. Unless you are the first one out it has no benefit as people start backing up right up to the door, by setting the CCTV to this door I can actually see how many more people are waiting to alight and see a fair few people on the platform from inside too.

If I'm running late in the evening rush hour and stop at Forest Hill, I set the CCTV to the last carriage looking forwards, as everyone uses this exit so I can see exactly when everyone is off.

I also do the same when at Surrey Quays if I'm a New Cross or Clapham Junction service. Just by flicking through the CCTV you can see if someone's on the wrong train and about to get off at the last second.

And yes a few times I've noticed a person with a buggy getting off last second and the internal CCTV stopped me from closing the doors before they could get off. Without it they would have missed their stop if I was working to exact rule ie.."station duties complete, dispatch corridoor clear, doors closed". We normally have so much spare time between stops that taking a bit extra at stations has no effect on punctuality. If only all trains had in cab CCTV, it would make things a lot easier!

 

[gazzak]

From reading through this thread everyone seems to have missed the part where the original poster said they were stuck for 50 seconds. Can a driver really not see someone or something stuck in a door for that amount of time? What was he thinking by waiting, for the doors to sort themselves out?

If he couldn't see the doors then leaving them in a closed position for so long with the interlock not made is downright dangerous.
If he could see then he's a danger to passengers by not opening them again.
So which is it?

People assume that drivers are all careful, considerate, customer aware people, which I'm sure 99.99% are, but there is no doubt there are bad apples out there as I've experienced this myself. I have a nasty feeling from what the OP has written that she came across a driver in a stinking bad mood, so please OP make sure this is at least looked into and quickly.

I was on a Central line train about 10 years ago, it was crowded but not rush hour. I've used the tube for 25 years and worked on it for 6, so I know when something isn't right. This driver was braking hard and late at every station, then leaving little time between opening and closing the doors so not giving enough time for people to get out, let alone new passengers to get in. At every stop he was literally shouting over the intercom for people to mind the doors, but very aggressively. In my opinion it was a very dangerous situation and people could have been hurt or stuck on the train. I very much regret not having the guts to pull the emergency handle and reporting him.

Maybe that experience made me more wary of certain clues from drivers actions, and I know we only have the OP's side of the story, but everything she has said points to something nobody wants to admit, there may be a driver out there who is a danger to the public.

 

[A-driver]

From reading through this thread everyone seems to have missed the part where the original poster said they were stuck for 50 seconds. Can a driver really not see someone or something stuck in a door for that amount of time? What was he thinking by waiting, for the doors to sort themselves out?

If he couldn't see the doors then leaving them in a closed position for so long with the interlock not made is downright dangerous.
If he could see then he's a danger to passengers by not opening them again.
So which is it?

People assume that drivers are all careful, considerate, customer aware people, which I'm sure 99.99% are, but there is no doubt there are bad apples out there as I've experienced this myself. I have a nasty feeling from what the OP has written that she came across a driver in a stinking bad mood, so please OP make sure this is at least looked into and quickly.

I was on a Central line train about 10 years ago, it was crowded but not rush hour. I've used the tube for 25 years and worked on it for 6, so I know when something isn't right. This driver was braking hard and late at every station, then leaving little time between opening and closing the doors so not giving enough time for people to get out, let alone new passengers to get in. At every stop he was literally shouting over the intercom for people to mind the doors, but very aggressively. In my opinion it was a very dangerous situation and people could have been hurt or stuck on the train. I very much regret not having the guts to pull the emergency handle and reporting him.

Maybe that experience made me more wary of certain clues from drivers actions, and I know we only have the OP's side of the story, but everything she has said points to something nobody wants to admit, there may be a driver out there who is a danger to the public.

I actually know the specific driver in question here so do find your post quite insulting as you are very wrong about him and what happened here.

And actually yes, if I see someone trapped in the doors sorting it out themselves I won't usually re release the doors - just let them free themselves as they normally do (even with a buggy). I only re release if it appears the people can't actually free themselves (50 secs could be the length of time it takes to establish this). My manager and company will back me up on that aswell.

It's also not a danger to be trapped in the doors-the train can't move anywhere until interlock is gained.

As for that tube driver-so he was braking heavily and trying to get people to board quickly? Not really dangerous is it?! What exactly would you have reported him for?

 

[gazzak]

I actually know the specific driver in question here so do find your post quite insulting as you are very wrong about him and what happened here.

And actually yes, if I see someone trapped in the doors sorting it out themselves I won't usually re release the doors - just let them free themselves as they normally do (even with a buggy). I only re release if it appears the people can't actually free themselves (50 secs could be the length of time it takes to establish this). My manager and company will back me up on that aswell.

It's also not a danger to be trapped in the doors-the train can't move anywhere until interlock is gained.

As for that tube driver-so he was braking heavily and trying to get people to board quickly? Not really dangerous is it?! What exactly would you have reported him for?

As I said in my post, "from what the OP has written". I appreciate hearing the other side, it does help to make a balanced view.

Are you seriously saying that a woman with a buggy stuck in doors that are trying to close, (what is the PSI on those doors?), would be left in situ to sort it out herself rather than a button being pressed to open them again? I'd like to hear the reasons why, genuinely.

As for the tube driver, well I was there and I know it wasn't right. I said above I have years of experience with the tube, and I know d*mn well when someone is deliberately closing the doors early, braking heavily to unbalance passengers and being a danger. It has happened only that once in my time there. You are free to doubt my word, but there was a bully driving that train and that is dangerous.

Is it against forum rules to criticise rail staff on here?

 

[A-driver]

No, not against rules to criticise staff but you seem to be vastly exaggerating your point. I can't see how heavy braking is dangerous-especially as the ATO now used on several tube lines brakes harder than humans would.

And as for your comments that this FCC driver is a danger to the public that is utter rubbish. If he was he wouldn't still be driving trains.

In this case that the op wrote about FCC looked into the complaint, investigated by using CCTV, otdr downloads etc and at no point suspended the driver from driving duties as no safety breach was found. That should answer your concerns.

It's not easy to explain problems with dispatch like seemed to occur here but it's not as simple as you seem to think. It's very easy to miss things when looking at multiple monitors. As I have said countless times, the train isn't going to move with someone trapped in the doors. As for re releasing, in this circumstance once I had seen that the person hadn't been able to free themselves I would of course re open the doors as the driver involved did (it was far less than 50secs) but we tend not to as at busy stations every time to re open more people will force themselves on so e train would never leave (you have to leave people behind at some rush hour stations otherwise you don't get anywhere!) and the majority of wrong side door releases are made on re release so management prefer you never re release the doors.

As for the driver making a mistake in dispatch, it can happen. We can stop at 100+ stations a day, 5 days a week. If you make a small mistake at one of that stops in a year that's not a big deal really, and by a small mistake I mean missing someone in a monitor as you are looking at other doors at the time etc.

As I say, you can never view every single door at once in the monitors.

 

[bronzeonion]

Expecting someone to check that 24 doors are clear right now on a busy platform seems like rather a tall order, so I wonder if it would be possible to change the technology to make it easier, or to change the process so the driver isn't asked to do so much at once.

I wonder if there have been any studies into where drivers (in this case) are actually looking throughout the process. I feel there should have been.

Employ guards?

 

[Linziburns]

the driver clearly took didn't attempt to move the train and re opened the doors on realising the problem.

I'm afraid the driver definitely didn't reopen the doors, I had to force myself out from between the doors that were closing on me the whole time. I feel quite certain that this driver had no idea that anything was wrong at all until I spoke to him.

 

[A-driver]

I'm afraid the driver definitely didn't reopen the doors, I had to force myself out from between the doors that were closing on me the whole time. I feel quite certain that this driver had no idea that anything was wrong at all until I spoke to him.

Did you try pressing the door open buttons? The trains data recorder showed that they were re opened.

 

[Linziburns]

Did you try pressing the door open buttons? The trains data recorder showed that they were re opened.

Yes, I tapped that button like mad but nothing happened! The company did mention a possible door fault in their email, though - if they've viewed this on CCTV, they'd be able to see that the doors didn't reopen. I thought it was an excuse since they didn't explain further, but from what you've said it makes sense that there could have been a fault.

 

[Skimble19]

The doors wouldn't have opened unless you'd pressed the button, however, it's entirely possible there was a fault with the button/door.

It would appear that there have been frequent problems with FCC's older rolling stock doors either not opening or closing whilst passengers are exiting train
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
It would be interesting to try to establish how many complaints they have received and ignored, it would appear that this is a fairly frequent problem
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I am personally interested in how many members have come across people who have got caught in FCC train doors whilst alighting from their trains

I use FCC nearly every day and I've never once been trapped on the train, nor have I ever had the doors close on me. I travel at peak times, so get to witness the full extent to which people will go to to squeeze on trains and it really does amaze me what some people will do - last night for instance I watched somebody literally run down the stairs onto the platform and run straight at the now closed doors, bouncing off them.

I've also had any complains/comments/praise dealt with quickly efficiently. I wouldn't believe complaints are ignored.