Why don't people carry cash?

[sheff1]

I believe every single retailer was also set up to take payments in this way too, but I am not 100% sure. Certainly within the Olympic park they all did (and only took Visa!).

And this a problem - wrong card and no cash and you are stuffed.

Travelling by rail in the Netherlands (pre OV chipcard) was a nightmare if you didn't have cash and a lot of it. Other than at Schiphol, the TVMs only seemed to accept coins (no notes) and cards from Dutch banks.

Seems common practice around Europe to pay for most things on card.

Depends where you are. Belgium has already been mentioned. In Portugal, you also have difficulty. One of the main service coach companies operating from Porto does not accept cards at their ticket office. Paying by card in restaurants away from the larger centres is also a no-no.

 

[duncanp]

And this a problem - wrong card and no cash and you are stuffed.

Travelling by rail in the Netherlands (pre OV chipcard) was a nightmare if you didn't have cash and a lot of it. Other than at Schiphol, the TVMs only seemed to accept coins (no notes) and cards from Dutch banks.

Just returned from a trip to Cologne. The ticket machines at some of the tram stops only take coins and cards, but no notes. So hard cheese if you only have a €10 note and want to buy a €9.20 all day ticket.

I have also noticed this (coins and cards but no notes) on the Paris metro, and some TVMs at local stations in the Nord Pas De Calais region.

 

[fowler9]

I think until we reach a stage where you can use any card almost anywhere and the systems update immediately I will be sticking to keeping cash on me. Given that if I would be able to read what I am typing now on the other side of the planet in a few seconds time, and given the amount of money the banks make, I don't know why this isn't possible now.

 

[IanXC]

Given that if I would be able to read what I am typing now on the other side of the planet in a few seconds time, and given the amount of money the banks make, I don't know why this isn't possible now.

I don't think its a lack of will, the primary issue is that many banks are running such old systems that they struggle to work the current system (witness RBS "we haven't invested enough in our IT systems for decades"). Coupled with the fact it would mean getting agreement from thousands of banks - it took several years to get agreement for the T+6 cheque clearing process - and that only involved about 10 banks!

 

[sarahj]

I'm quite supprised by the comment, using cards is common in mainland europe.

Every few years I travel with a friend through europe in a car. Last time we went, I took cash, they said they would use their card. When we were in Italy, many restaurants, including some 'good' ones, it was cash only. Germany is the same. Until just a few years ago one of the first questions needed to be asked in Germany, do you take credit cards, and this was in shops, for expensive buys. People paying for items in cash, using very large denomination notes was very common. The only really accepted form of card payment was a card called EC, Electronic Cash. You could use it to buy even cigarettes from street vending machines. Many places still only take these EC cards. I've even had someone try and pay for a train fare here in the UK with one, and they dont work.
So when someone says, even cigarette machines take cards, well yes they do, but EC cards only.

So, in a general term, card use is common in europe when looked at from the outsiders POV, but in practise, the cards that do get accepted are few and far between.

Germany, Austria EC (electronic cash)
France. Electron
Netherlands: switch.

 

[IanXC]

People paying for items in cash, using very large denomination notes was very common.

That's an interesting point - the European Central Bank is in the process of withdrawing the EUR500 note, sighting decreased lawful use, and increased unlawful use. I have seen some suggestion that the majority of transactions made globally with EUR500 notes might be unlawful(!)

 

[sheff1]

Yes the 500€ note was something Germany insisted on due to the widespread practice there of using high denomination Mark notes for transactions which would probably be conducted with a card or cheque elsewhere. There has been a very noticeable increase in the use of cards in Germany over the last few years so the decrease in lawful use of the 500€ is not surprising - in many other Eurozone countries the note was never accepted in shops etc from the outset.

 

[island]

It's nothing compared to Singapore's $10,000 note!

 

[atillathehunn]

I'm quite supprised by the comment, using cards is common in mainland europe.

Every few years I travel with a friend through europe in a car. Last time we went, I took cash, they said they would use their card. When we were in Italy, many restaurants, including some 'good' ones, it was cash only. Germany is the same. Until just a few years ago one of the first questions needed to be asked in Germany, do you take credit cards, and this was in shops, for expensive buys. People paying for items in cash, using very large denomination notes was very common. The only really accepted form of card payment was a card called EC, Electronic Cash. You could use it to buy even cigarettes from street vending machines. Many places still only take these EC cards. I've even had someone try and pay for a train fare here in the UK with one, and they dont work.
So when someone says, even cigarette machines take cards, well yes they do, but EC cards only.

So, in a general term, card use is common in europe when looked at from the outsiders POV, but in practise, the cards that do get accepted are few and far between.

Germany, Austria EC (electronic cash)
France. Electron
Netherlands: switch.

I was actually just referring to the Netherlands. I've had lots of problems using my Dutch bank card anywhere else but here. Supermarkets here don't accept my UK VISA card, for instance. I can't remember the last time I paid cash in a shop...

 

[DeeGee]

So when someone says, even cigarette machines take cards, well yes they do, but EC cards only.

The Electronic Cash cards in Germany, Geldkarte, hold within the chip some kind of age verification code, thus allowing a cigarette vending machine to verify the age of the purchaser using the PIN code. In fact, due to the need for age verification, Geldkarte is the only accepted method of payment for cigarette vending machines in Germany.

The big issue I have at the moment in the UK is the ridiculous situation whereby still only a minority of parking meters or car parks accept cards. Pay and Display parking meters almost never accept notes, either. Those that accprt payment by phone charge a handling charge.

This means that when I go to Lincoln, I have to plan several weeks in advance to save up pound coins/50p pieces, and its a security risk leving these lying about in the car, so I have to lug them round in my wallet.

It's even worse if I'm going somewhere I don't know, or to somewhere with stupid parking charges like York, as I have no idea how much coin I need. It's ridiculous having to feed a meter with sometimes almost 20 quid in coins.

Technology exists now whereby you can hold an active balance on your chip/contactless card like Oyster PAYG, so you can go to a bank, withdraw, say, 20 quid onto your Electronic Cash balance on the same card, and use that like cash without the need to worry about online authorisation. However, just like we were one of the last countries in Western Europe to pick up on Chip and Pin, we're very late doing this as well.

 

[bunnahabhain]

One of the things that bugs me massively is when I'm handed a card and told "You'll have to swipe it". Errr, will I now? As they know that their cards do not work onboard then they know they have boarded without means to pay for a ticket. They are usually invited to leave at the next station to buy a ticket or go find a cash machine.

 

[CockneySparrow]

I prefer cash myself. Less faffing around, except when you get stuck behind the person at the cash point who spends that long you start to wonder if they are reprogramming it.

Yeah I know, I have more than once got stuck behind people paying their bills like water, gas and credit card etc, not to mention topping up their phone

 

[IanXC]

It's even worse if I'm going somewhere I don't know, or to somewhere with stupid parking charges like York, as I have no idea how much coin I need. It's ridiculous having to feed a meter with sometimes almost 20 quid in coins.

Interestingly York is one of the few places I think I have ever paid for parking by card! There are 2 multi story car parks in the city centre run by Q-Park where you can pay by card, notes or coins!

 

[fowler9]

I used to regularly frequent the Lonely Planet forum until it recently died a death (It is much quieter these days) and the number of Americans who couldn't use their cards almost anywhere outside America was quite impressive. I was quite surprised at that. But then I think about the fact that I could use my card almost anywhere in the world and not on Northern Rail (Apologies for repeating myself. Ha ha). Until a day comes when banks finally get it together and make their systems work in unison I will be carrying cash. These multinational corporations make billions every year for their shareholders but can't be bothered to set up a system where you can draw out money from another bank and have your account instantly updated with another bank. At the same time they can really quickly get bailed out with everyones money when their cowboy schemes crash the economy.

To put it another way, given the technology we currently have I can post on here using the home IP. I can go down the road and use the wifi in the pub and post on here. Later on I can go to my mates house and post on here using his wifi. The website will update immediately. If I use my debit card over the weekend or a bank holiday the money just disappears from my current cleared funds but not my balance for sometimes days after the banks have been open again. At some ATM's it will only tell you your balance and not your current cleared funds. It is a ludicrous situation and until it is sorted out I will always carry cash.

 

[34D]

One of the things that bugs me massively is when I'm handed a card and told "You'll have to swipe it". Errr, will I now? As they know that their cards do not work onboard then they know they have boarded without means to pay for a ticket. They are usually invited to leave at the next station to buy a ticket or go find a cash machine.

But swiping is one (of various ways) manner in which a card transaction can be undertaken.

I suggest that if you really do chuck people off as you suggest, that you stop doing this immediately.

It isn't the passengers fault that you don't have a GPRS link now, is it?

 

[island]

Jamie is in the right. A merchant who swipes a chip card is at risk of not getting paid for the transaction, and the passengers in question know full well their cards will decline if used in the chip reader.

 

[34D]

Jamie is in the right. A merchant who swipes a chip card is at risk of not getting paid for the transaction, and the passengers in question know full well their cards will decline if used in the chip reader.

That is not the concern of the customer, though.

If a method of payment is advertised as accepted then that is that.

 

[island]

That is not the concern of the customer, though.

If a method of payment is advertised as accepted then that is that.

Taking your view to its logical conclusion I assume you think the railway should accept stolen and expired cards too? :roll:

 

[Hadders]

If a card has a chip then it must be used. A merchant who swipes a card when a chip could have been used will be charged back by the bank should the transaction be fraudulent or insufficient funds etc.

A card should only be swiped if there is no chip. This will generally only be cards issued abroad but care should be taken with such cards to check they are genuine by checking the card security features.

 

[455driver]

This means that when I go to Lincoln, I have to plan several weeks in advance to save up pound coins/50p pieces, and its a security risk leving these lying about in the car, so I have to lug them round in my wallet.

You are saying that your car doesnt have a glovebox, cubby hole or boot then?

There are some right drama queens on here lately! :roll:

 

[Fare-Cop]

Interestingly York is one of the few places I think I have ever paid for parking by card! There are 2 multi story car parks in the city centre run by Q-Park where you can pay by card, notes or coins!

All of the many NCP car parks that I have used seem to have card or cash machines

 

[rf_ioliver]

Taking your view to its logical conclusion I assume you think the railway should accept stolen and expired cards too? :roll:

Er, no. An expired card is not a means of payment, period. Stolen cards are something else...how would you know it is a stolen card? An attempt to use a stolen card is an offence in its own right.

Personally, rarely if even do I carry cash (I live in Finland, where cards can be used for pretty much everything and even more rarely do I encounter a situation where a card can not be used, even for small things such as news papers costing a tens of eurocents).

If an business offers the ability to accept cards as a means of payment then as far as I am concerned it is that business' problem if that system fails or they remove that ability without informing the customer. Yes, it has happened a few times to the cost of the business.

As far as I can recall the only problems on the rail network have been with Visa Electron cards which are explicitly stated as being not accepted. There have been a couple of situations where a minor has been caught with this but even these circumstances there are ways and means around this and Finns tends to be pretty honest when it comes to settling payments in these situations. On the other hand give then 3G/4G/WLAN are so ubiquitous here then there's always payment by SMS/mobile network available.

The only problems I've ever really had were using Diners Card outside of hotels and taxis. Then there's American Express...for those of you who have read Hitch Hikers Guide to the Universe will understand Douglas Adams' comment about a currency not accepted anywhere in the known Universe


Ian

 

[island]

Why should the railway accept a card when it does not know whether payment will be honoured by the bank that issued the card?

 

[sheff1]

Why should the railway accept a card when it does not know whether payment will be honoured by the bank that issued the card?

Because they state that they do accept cards for the purchase of tickets.

As has previously been stated, if 'the railway' does not have adequate agreements in place with the banks that is not the concern of the customer. If a TOC's agreements with banks are not suitable for their business model they should either renegotiate them or stop accepting cards altogether and state in their publicity that payment is only possible by cash.

 

[bunnahabhain]

I suggest that if you really do chuck people off as you suggest, that you stop doing this immediately.

You are whom exactly? I invite people who are deliberately trying to get a free ride to leave.

 

[jon0844]

If a TOC's agreements with banks are not suitable for their business model they should either renegotiate them or stop accepting cards altogether and state in their publicity that payment is only possible by cash.

Did you seriously write that a TOC should stop taking all cards if they can't get a bank to allow them to take online only cards in an offline situation?

Good luck getting support for that!

 

[rs101]

I may have missed it, but have any of the TOCs given an explanation as to why they haven't updated their on-board ticket vending equipment to use online authorisations? Many trains now have wifi on board which could be used for the data connection.

As a passenger, I'd expect that if my card works in the TVM, then it should also work on board if the TVM is unavailable. I don't know which of my credit/debit cards will work on board or not - I've certainly never seen any advertising by Greater Anglia to advise which cards I can use on my local trains.

Can these same online only cards be used to purchase refreshments on board?

 

[sheff1]

Did you seriously write that a TOC should stop taking all cards if they can't get a bank to allow them to take online only cards in an offline situation?

No.

...

 

[Flamingo]

Whenever I get told "You'll have to swipe it, mate", I do the "correct" procedure, which is ring the authorisation line. Most of the "You'll have to swipe it" cards get declined. If they have no other means to pay, they get invited to leave at the next manned station, usually with a reception committee to ensure they don't forget to go to the booking office (or anywhere else the other side of the barriers).

A significant number of the others decide that they have cash or another card when told I'm ringing the bank for authorisation.

On the trains I work, most of these passengers will have started their journey or interchanged at a station with full ticketing facilities (or at least, claim to have done so and "The bloke on the gate let me through as I was running late").

I'm with Jamie on this one. If a passenger knows their card doesn't work, it's up to them to bring cash.

 

[FFC]

One of the things that bugs me massively is when I'm handed a card and told "You'll have to swipe it". Errr, will I now?

Whenever I get told "You'll have to swipe it, mate", I do the "correct" procedure, which is ring the authorisation line.

Nice for customers to have a consistent approach.

Anyway, a business is only liable for declined transactions if they have not used the most secure method of accepting the payment at *that* time the transaction is made with *that* card.

For example, if you have a chip & signature card, a PIN is not available for that card, so even though a signature is taken, when used with the chip, it is the highest level of security available on that card.

If certain cards won't operate through the machines given to train staff serving customers, but the system requires the employee to phone for authorisation, shouldn't they follow procedure?