Why don't people carry cash?

[DeeGee]

You are saying that your car doesnt have a glovebox, cubby hole or boot then?

There are some right drama queens on here lately! :roll:

Of course it does. Tell you what I'll do. Every time (once in a blue moon) I go to the pub, I'll empty the mother-load of coins in my wallet into my glovebox the next morning just because local councils need to be dragged kicking and screaming into the 1950s.

I fail to see why I should ever have to carry more than £5 worth of silver and £1 coins.

 

[bunnahabhain]

I'm with Jamie on this one. If a passenger knows their card doesn't work, it's up to them to bring cash.

Fine example today. "Single to .... mate", *I go through the selling process*, "I'm afraid your card has been declined sir, do you have cash at all?", "Nah mate, just swipe it", "I'm afraid I can't do that sir. Why didn't you purchase one at [origin station]", "I was late for the train mate", "No you weren't, I opened the doors twenty minutes before departure and you were waiting to board five minutes before that. I'd like you to alight at [next station] and buy a ticket to [destination], the next train is about five minutes behind".

Simple as that, if somebody gets on and sits as far away from me as possible, can't be bothered to go and buy a ticket when they've ample opportunity to do so and knows their card doesn't work, then I see that as them attempting to not pay for their journey. He would have reached his destination 5-10minutes later than on my service. That is unless he decided to board one of the other two TOCs trains on that route and got a penalty fare/thrown off at some intermediate hellhole.

 

[island]

Nice for customers to have a consistent approach.

Anyway, a business is only liable for declined transactions if they have not used the most secure method of accepting the payment at *that* time the transaction is made with *that* card.

For example, if you have a chip & signature card, a PIN is not available for that card, so even though a signature is taken, when used with the chip, it is the highest level of security available on that card.

If certain cards won't operate through the machines given to train staff serving customers, but the system requires the employee to phone for authorisation, shouldn't they follow procedure?

I don't know which TOC Jamie works for, but it may have different procedures to those Flamingo has been told to follow. And the phone authorization process is time-consuming and not easy on a train with frequent stops if the guard has to go off and do the doors.

 

[455driver]

Of course it does. Tell you what I'll do. Every time (once in a blue moon) I go to the pub, I'll empty the mother-load of coins in my wallet into my glovebox the next morning just because local councils need to be dragged kicking and screaming into the 1950s.

I fail to see why I should ever have to carry more than £5 worth of silver and £1 coins.

If you want to avail yourself of some services then you will need to pay for them with cash, that is why "I should ever have to carry more than £5 worth of silver and £1 coins".

My car has about £10 worth of silver and £1 coins in the ashtray (probably a fair bit more actually), a couple of times a week I might dip into it and the next time I have some change I will put it in there, it isnt difficult for me to do that but obviously its far to difficult for some!

 

[Flamingo]

I don't know which TOC Jamie works for, but it may have different procedures to those Flamingo has been told to follow. And the phone authorization process is time-consuming and not easy on a train with frequent stops if the guard has to go off and do the doors.

Exactly. I'll have an average of 15 minutes between stops. Depending on phone coverage, it might take that 15 minutes to process one card. What about the 3-400 other people on the train?

If in South Wales, that's between 4-10 minutes between stops, Kemble line the same but no phone signal, and short platforms meaning I have to be in certain places on the train at set times.

Plus the "horse-sense" one develops with the job about when somebody is trying it on.

 

[DeeGee]

If you want to avail yourself of some services then you will need to pay for them with cash, that is why "I should ever have to carry more than £5 worth of silver and £1 coins".

My car has about £10 worth of silver and £1 coins in the ashtray (probably a fair bit more actually), a couple of times a week I might dip into it and the next time I have some change I will put it in there, it isnt difficult for me to do that but obviously its far to difficult for some!

Yes, but paying with cash is one thing. Being restricted to only the coins of the realm that the manufacturers of the ticket machines see fit to allowing the machine to accept is a totally different thing. Maybe the machine will accept 5p pieces, or perhaps not. Maybe I can use my £2 coin, or perhaps not. And maybe, just maybe, one of my pound coins is slightly soiled or not soiled enough to be recognised by the machine.

So I end up annoying everyone queuing up behind me to reject my coins, then go off and find an NCP. Taking money out of the hands of the local council.

Oh well, that's their choice.

At lest if I'm getting a train from a station with a PERTIS machine, I only need 10p.

 

[PermitToTravel]

What I seriously dislike is that, at least at some of the stations near me, PERTIS machines refuse shield-series coins, and only accept the pre-2008 versions. That is truly beyond the pale.

 

[bunnahabhain]

Exactly. I'll have an average of 15 minutes between stops. Depending on phone coverage, it might take that 15 minutes to process one card. What about the 3-400 other people on the train?

If in South Wales, that's between 4-10 minutes between stops, Kemble line the same but no phone signal, and short platforms meaning I have to be in certain places on the train at set times.

Plus the "horse-sense" one develops with the job about when somebody is trying it on.

It varies for me but the closest is less than 2 minutes apart start to stop.

 

[tsr]

At lest if I'm getting a train from a station with a PERTIS machine, I only need 10p.

Or a 5p piece, if you have an old one (as above)

I usually keep a designated old 5p in my wallet for the purpose of obtaining a Permit to Travel in the event of needing one in an emergency. I am that sort of person...

 

[455driver]

So you openly admit to defrauding the TOCs by using illegal currency!

Police Police!

 

[krus_aragon]

If a card has a chip then it must be used. A merchant who swipes a card when a chip could have been used will be charged back by the bank should the transaction be fraudulent or insufficient funds etc.

A card should only be swiped if there is no chip. This will generally only be cards issued abroad but care should be taken with such cards to check they are genuine by checking the card security features.

Or alternatively, if the card has a chip present, but the terminal is unable to read it correctly. The 'take it out and put it back in' approach can clean dirty contacts, but if the chip is damaged and the terminal fails to communicate correctly with it, the terminal will generally prompt for the card to be swiped instead.

(Conversely, as each chipped card has 'chip present' encoded on the magnetic strip, some terminals will, on swiping a chipped card, tell you to try the chip first.)

 

[Haywain]

Or alternatively, if the card has a chip present, but the terminal is unable to read it correctly. The 'take it out and put it back in' approach can clean dirty contacts, but if the chip is damaged and the terminal fails to communicate correctly with it, the terminal will generally prompt for the card to be swiped instead.

(Conversely, as each chipped card has 'chip present' encoded on the magnetic strip, some terminals will, on swiping a chipped card, tell you to try the chip first.)

And some terminals will simply state that it is a chipped card and cannot be swiped. At which point it becomes the cardholders problem.

 

[tsr]

So you openly admit to defrauding the TOCs by using illegal currency!

Police Police!

No, I am exchanging an item in my possession for the Permit, which I am obliged to do in order to prove I am adhering to the NRCoC, and effectively show that I intend to use those Conditions as terms of my contract. I believe the mandatory Penalty Fares posters instruct us to obtain a Permit from any available machine, not to tender an item which falls under the remit of the phrase "legal currency"...

 

[Peter Mugridge]

No, I am exchanging an item in my possession for the Permit, which I am obliged to do in order to prove I am adhering to the NRCoC, and effectively show that I intend to use those Conditions as terms of my contract. I believe the mandatory Penalty Fares posters instruct us to obtain a Permit from any available machine, not to tender an item which falls under the remit of the phrase "legal currency"...

On that basis, would you consider it OK to take a tin opener to the machine in order to obtain a permit from it?:roll:

 

[PermitToTravel]

On that basis, would you consider it OK to take a tin opener to the machine in order to obtain a permit from it?:roll:

The "old" 5p coins in question are still legal tender, and are still commonplace!

 

[jon0844]

Commonplace? Seriously?

 

[IanXC]

The "old" 5p coins in question are still legal tender, and are still commonplace!

I can't agree that they are commonplace, pretty rare I'd say! Legal tender is not relevant in this situation because we are not talking about the payment of a debt.

It is of course possible to obtain the face value for said coin, which is not the same as saying the coin is in general circulation.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I have to say I haven't seen one of the old coins for years now, certainly not in circulation.

At a guess, a coin collector would pay rather more than 5p for one anyway?

 

[Haywain]

The legality of the coins depends on what is being referred to. If the older version of the current 5p (ie; the same size) then there is no problem. If however, the reference was to the older, larger 5p then I very much doubt that it remains "legal tender". However, the tight definition of legal tender probably makes it an irrelevance in this case. It would not be normally acceptable coinage though, as it cannot be given in change.

The interesting point to me is the concept of putting as little as possible into the Permit to Travel machine, which I would interpret as not wanting to pay the fare due, but not wanting to be accused of trying to evade the fare. I believe that the instructions are that you should put in as much as is necessary to pay the fare or as can be accepted by the PTT machine, rather than as little as possible as most people choose.

 

[PermitToTravel]

Sorry, which are we talking about? I meant the pre-
2008 ones:

PERTIS do not take these:

 

[route:oxford]

I don't know which TOC Jamie works for, but it may have different procedures to those Flamingo has been told to follow. And the phone authorization process is time-consuming and not easy on a train with frequent stops if the guard has to go off and do the doors.

It doesn't really matter which TOC someone works for.

Every single merchant has to follow the same international rules for accepting credit cards.

Fall-back processes for manual processing are time-intensive and irritating - but that's what the TOCs signed up for.

 

[island]

It doesn't really matter which TOC someone works for.

Every single merchant has to follow the same international rules for accepting credit cards.

I don't believe that's correct. I have a merchant account and in return for low interchange fees I cannot make voice authorization calls or referrals and in a situation where it would normally refer, the card declines instead.

 

[Fare-Cop]

The interesting point to me is the concept of putting as little as possible into the Permit to Travel machine, which I would interpret as not wanting to pay the fare due, but not wanting to be accused of trying to evade the fare.

I believe that the instructions are that you should put in as much as is necessary to pay the fare or as can be accepted by the PTT machine, rather than as little as possible as most people choose.

Exactly. Most revenue protection staff in such areas are fully conversant with the '5p insurance certificate' and the record does show successful prosecutions where travellers have held a Pertis, but not had the means to pay the remainder of a correct fare at the time of travel.

 

[PermitToTravel]

Exactly. Most revenue protection staff in such areas are fully conversant with the '5p insurance certificate' and the record does show successful prosecutions where travellers have held a Pertis, but not had the means to pay the remainder of a correct fare at the time of travel.

I never put in more than one coin (the smallest coin that I have that it will accept), as I have previously had them swallow coins but not issue a permit. I used to always insert the part of the fare after the decimal point, as advised on here, to make giving change easier for the guard, but I will no longer risk losing my money. This has nothing to do with fare evading - I will always queue up at my destination to pay the remainder of my fare.

I do think that if TOCs do not wish to employ conductors or station staff, anywhere on a line, then it is inevitable that the takings will be rather lean. Gating at least the major stations would make a massive difference to fare evasion rates.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Sorry, which are we talking about? I meant the pre-
2008 ones.

When you said "old 5p" one would tend to think of the Shilling sized ones that were used up until about 1990, not the tiny little ones that have been around since then...

 

[PermitToTravel]

sorry I was thrown off by tsr's "as above"

I do wonder what would happen if a 5 "New Pence" coin was inserted into a PERTIS - would it be confused for a 10p?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I doubt it; they're not the same size / thickness as the current 10p are they?

 

[island]

I doubt it; they're not the same size / thickness as the current 10p are they?

No, they are thicker and have a slightly smaller diameter.

 

[DeeGee]

Exactly. Most revenue protection staff in such areas are fully conversant with the '5p insurance certificate' and the record does show successful prosecutions where travellers have held a Pertis, but not had the means to pay the remainder of a correct fare at the time of travel.

In my experience, guards take the PERTIS, issue the full ticket and give me back my 5p when I pay using my card.

If I were to tender a card that was supposed to be accepted (Visa Debit) but because I was unaware that it was one of these "Always Authorise" cards and it didn't work in the ticket machine, I assume that I'd be given the cance to pay my fare, with my card, on arrival/interchange at a station with appropriate facilities...?

 

[34D]

You are whom exactly? I invite people who are deliberately trying to get a free ride to leave.

Somebody with a higher concern for consumer rights than you.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Exactly. I'll have an average of 15 minutes between stops. Depending on phone coverage, it might take that 15 minutes to process one card. What about the 3-400 other people on the train?

If in South Wales, that's between 4-10 minutes between stops, Kemble line the same but no phone signal, and short platforms meaning I have to be in certain places on the train at set times.

Plus the "horse-sense" one develops with the job about when somebody is trying it on.

This is very true. I would however put the blame on the TOC for not installing more modern equipment.