What if a passenger train breaks down

[01jtiong]

If a train breaks down with passengers on them and if not too far to station does the driver tell passengers to get off train and walk on rails to near by station till replacement comes over as heard this happened in the past where a train broke down and passengers had to get off and walk trackside to nearby station

 

[telstarbox]

No. It is nearly always safer to stay on the train and evacuation onto the track is a last resort.

 

[Tomnick]

Only as a very last resort, and then they'd be suitably accompanied. Far easier to wait until assistance has been provided and the train can either continue normally or at least take the passengers somewhere sensible to detrain. They certainly should never be walking on rails either!

 

[Bedpan]

Probably easier to walk in the six foot than to walk on the rails - they do tend to be easy to slip off due to the fact that the rail heads are only about 3 inches wide.

 

[transportphoto]

Probably easier to walk in the six foot than to walk on the rails - they do tend to be easy to slip off due to the fact that the rail heads are only about 3 inches wide.

Possibly even easier and safer to walk in the cess... in the unlikely event of this happening.

 

[LBSCR Times]

And if it is on third rail land, then the traction current has to be isolated if evacuating on to the track.....
Along with abutting sections, it can cover a very large area!
(An abutting section is a neutral section so that if a train enters it, it will not liven up the area where passengers are detraining).
However, whilst the preferred the option is to await assistance, the next option is to bring a train end on, if corridor connections are available, or alongside and use transboardment bridges.

 

[NotATrainspott]

I remember there being a very long and emotive discussion on here about just this after a FGW HST was left stranded for six hours or so. It boils down to how far away the next station would be and how much disruption closing the route entirely would cause. Unless you were lucky and there were an access path along the track on railway property or a level crossing, people would have to walk long distances on the ballast. That's difficult enough when wearing steel-toed boots, let alone whatever else people are wearing. Because there would be so many passengers and so few staff to supervise them, the entire route in both directions would have to be closed until everyone was off the train and in a safe place off the running lines. The gap between the doors and the ballast will be almost a metre and there's no way it would be safe to take disabled, old or otherwise fragile people down this distance, let alone along the kilometres of ballast towards the outside world. Even if the toilets or air conditioning fail the chances of someone being injured by staying on the train (doors can be opened by staff for ventilation - Mk4s at least have nets which can be used to stop things falling out the open doors) is minimal compared to an evacuation along the track. Things like supplying water or the evacuation of very high risk people can be managed much more easily by rail staff as they can then work when the rest of the railway is still running.

 

[Taunton]

Only as a very last resort, and then they'd be suitably accompanied. Far easier to wait until assistance has been provided

That is certainly how it used to be. Unfortunately in recent years the industry has just taken leave of its senses far too often in such circumstances, being happy to leave passengers for hours in dire circumstances while they fanny around. The Kentish Town incident, in particular, should have seen the operator lose their safety case the following day.

 

[YorkshireBear]

From experience i can say walking on Ballast is very very tiring even in proper footwear. Can't imagine it in pumps etc. I would say stay on the train unless it is getting ridiculous.

I think one thing the industry needs to get better at is recovery time to get to a station. NO train should be left stranded for more than say 90 minutes in my eyes. Should be a target. Ideally 60 max but there is limitations.

 

[Tomnick]

That is certainly how it used to be. Unfortunately in recent years the industry has just taken leave of its senses far too often in such circumstances, being happy to leave passengers for hours in dire circumstances while they fanny around. The Kentish Town incident, in particular, should have seen the operator lose their safety case the following day.

If you're saying that it sometimes takes too long to provide assistance, then I won't disagree. If you're suggesting that it's better to routinely evacuate failed trains, then I will - it'll only serve to increase the time taken to clear the line, further delaying the passengers from the failed train (if they're taken to a station to continue their journey by rail) and everyone else on other trains too.

Going further upthread, I'd really not recommend the six foot as a sensible walking route in most cases!

 

[Class377/5]

From experience i can say walking on Ballast is very very tiring even in proper footwear. Can't imagine it in pumps etc. I would say stay on the train unless it is getting ridiculous.

I think one thing the industry needs to get better at is recovery time to get to a station. NO train should be left stranded for more than say 90 minutes in my eyes. Should be a target. Ideally 60 max but there is limitations.

There are of course expections to this. Especially depending on location and local weather factors where it may not be safe to leave the train for hours. Especially it your miles away from the nearest evacuation point.

Its too easy to say you must be out but you should never allow that to people at risk.

 

[timbo58]

nottatrain has it spot on IME, although on the few occasions I have detrained from the TGS on an HST to the cess trackside it's been nearly 2 metres where the cess slopes away!

It would be madness to detrain more than a handful of passengers for more than a few hundred metres walk IME/IMHO, you are simply asking for trouble with slips/trips/falls even IF all passengers had no mobility issues and were likely to accept instruction from the TM/staff.

I had 2 people detrain through a window once when we were in sight of a platform (think it was Earley IIRC?) when delayed for around 45 minutes once, frankly they were insane- it must've been nearly 2.5 metres head 1st, and if the signal had 'come off' whilst they were doing it they had a real chance of falling under the train.

Even then, Earley was unstaffed and unlikely to have taxis waiting, so since we moved less than 20 minutes later (towards Reading) they almost certainly delayed themselves even more.

I think the arguments for 'how long is too long' could go on forever: if there were to be 'guideline times' (that would eventually inevitably become public knowledge btw) they would have to be 'per route/per time of day or night/per time of year/per weather conditions/per loading etc etc etc: how long is that piece of string?

Personally I think the FGW 6 hours business was too long as an 'off the cuff' opinion: however I'd have to know what resources FGW had, the weather, the time, the loading, the experience of the staff, the provision of managers/trained staff and the exact location to even start to criticise properly: that isn't going to happen is it?

 

[IanXC]

From experience i can say walking on Ballast is very very tiring even in proper footwear. Can't imagine it in pumps etc. I would say stay on the train unless it is getting ridiculous.

I could not agree more! I guess you strengthen certain muscles eventually, but I could hardly walk after one night, and for a fare amount of time I was just standing!

From my experience the four foot is the easiest place to walk, this was in a Green zone - I've no idea what the wider rules look like!

 

[TEW]

Personally I think the FGW 6 hours business was too long as an 'off the cuff' opinion: however I'd have to know what resources FGW had, the weather, the time, the loading, the experience of the staff, the provision of managers/trained staff and the exact location to even start to criticise properly: that isn't going to happen is it?

From what I remember it was dark, it was raining and the train was a long way from the nearest access point. It was also a Sunday evening so limited available staff I imagine. It wasn't a viable option to evacuate the train.

 

[3141]

Personally I think the FGW 6 hours business was too long as an 'off the cuff' opinion: however I'd have to know what resources FGW had, the weather, the time, the loading, the experience of the staff, the provision of managers/trained staff and the exact location to even start to criticise properly: that isn't going to happen is it?

I think timbo58's remark offers an infinite opportunity for excuses.

TOCs should have plans for evacuation in a lot less than six hours and these plans should cover the circumstances that may apply in any particular incident. They should not say that if the weather's bad, the time is inconvenient, there are not many passengers/there are too many passengers, the staff aren't experienced, unfortunately managers X and Y are off today, and really this train's broken down in the wrong place - we don't need to bother much. One of the problems in the FGW case near Pewsey was the length of time it took to get basic supplies to the passengers.

I don't disagree that it's nearly always better to stay on the train. But the TOC needs to get an effective grip on the situation, otherwise passengers will make their own decisions and not wait for the official rescue if it doesn't happen for hours and there's no credible information about it.

 

[DJL]

I think part of the problem here comes down to a simple question - "how long do we expect it will be before this train can be underway again".

If it is obvious from the outset that the train won't be moving for 6 hours then the action taken might be different to if it is believed that the train will be moving in 5 mins time.

Now I'm not saying that will mean to de-train. But it might make the difference between sending out a man in a taxi with bottles of water or not.
(Or if the train has got caught in a snow storm - portable heaters!)

 

[OLJR]

Does anybody remember Chris Morris' 'The Day Today' sketch from 1993(?) where passengers on a stranded train revert to their baser selves, sacrificing other passengers and dancing while holding flaming torches?!

Unfortunately I do not see a YouTube video!

 

[button_boxer]

I think part of the problem here comes down to a simple question - "how long do we expect it will be before this train can be underway again".

If it is obvious from the outset that the train won't be moving for 6 hours then the action taken might be different to if it is believed that the train will be moving in 5 mins time.

Of course the problem there is that in many cases it's impossible to know from the outset how long the problem will take to fix.

 

[Eagle]

Does anybody remember Chris Morris' 'The Day Today' sketch from 1993(?) where passengers on a stranded train revert to their baser selves, sacrificing other passengers and dancing while holding flaming torches?!

Cause was identified as a dead pigeon jammed in a semaphore. Luckily marksmen were on hand.

 

[TEW]

Of course the problem there is that in many cases it's impossible to know from the outset how long the problem will take to fix.

The Kentish Town incident being the perfect example of that. The catalogue of errors that ensured after the incident heightened the length of the delay.

 

[DJL]

Of course the problem there is that in many cases it's impossible to know from the outset how long the problem will take to fix.

In many cases yes, but by no means all.

Yesterday for example the OHLE came down on the TL route north of London. I read in one post that it was 1/4 mile of wires came down.
It doesn't take a genius to figure out that this is going to take a while to fix and chances are even with a diesel loco some trains aren't going to be able to be moved until the engineers have cleaned up as a minimum.

In this specific example I believe the passengers were removed from the train.

My point was

If it is obvious from the outset

Every situation is different

 

[3141]

There’s an interesting article on page 78 of the new issue of Modern Railways. A speaker from a firm of crisis management specialists was addressing a meeting of the Railway Study Association.

A paragraph on page 79 considers a “creeping crisis”, where it’s thought the problem will be solved in 30 minutes….and then another 30 minutes….and advises that it’s better to respond early than always be trying to catch up, or in other words: “if in doubt, call ‘em out”.

You have to be prepared for the possibility of these incidents, with plans and exercises for dealing with this that may happen, and recognition at high levels that effective action will need to be taken quickly.

Then, although every situation is different, people will be in a stronger position to deal with whatever it may be.

 

[A-driver]

In many cases yes, but by no means all.

Yesterday for example the OHLE came down on the TL route north of London. I read in one post that it was 1/4 mile of wires came down.
It doesn't take a genius to figure out that this is going to take a while to fix and chances are even with a diesel loco some trains aren't going to be able to be moved until the engineers have cleaned up as a minimum.

In this specific example I believe the passengers were removed from the train.

My point was

Every situation is different

Have you not just answered your own question there though? The TL incident as you say was obviously a long job and as soon at the full problem was confirmed FCC sent managers from all over the network to safely evacuate the trains-it can't safely be done with just a driver alone.

The Kentish town incident seemed like a quick fix at the start-a load of additional problems lengthened the delay. Had FCC known it would take hours at the start they would have organised an evacuation.

 

[Cliveblackpool]

Give the angry passengers a walk in the cess. Then tow their failed train behind them with the one they have just boarded!
French 'logic' ??
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8hB4zpezDo

There is another evacuation video out their somewhere where some french passengers almost get mowed down by an express train on the other track.

 

[Dave1987]

Recently on the GA twitter feed there were passengers asking our guy manning the twitter feed if it was ok to pull the egress handle and walk down the track. They had been there for about 15 minutes by all accounts. People seem to have a cavalier attitude to their own safety, then moan at Network Rail or the TOC's when someone gets injured. I can understand passengers being irate it they have been sat for 6 hours but for 15 mins its unbelievable.

 

[455driver]

I can understand passengers being irate it they have been sat for 6 hours but for 15 mins its unbelievable.

Never met the Surrey mafia or the Alton line users association have you!

 

[SWTCommuter]

Does anybody remember Chris Morris' 'The Day Today' sketch from 1993(?) where passengers on a stranded train revert to their baser selves, sacrificing other passengers and dancing while holding flaming torches?!

Unfortunately I do not see a YouTube video!

http://youtu.be/W9GbmBC-O9U

 

[Taunton]

The Kentish Town incident being the perfect example of that. The catalogue of errors that ensured after the incident heightened the length of the delay.

But the most significant errors were long before. For example, the first line contingency was for a failed train to be pushed out by the one behind. The operator had two types of train, whose couplings were incompatible, and the timetable scheduled alternate trains to be formed of alternate types of stock. This is Operations 1.01.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Just out of interest do drivers receive any training to try and get their trusty steeds running again? For obvious reasons I'm considering diesel loco's and DMU's here. I'm just thinking that on somewhere like the S & C where a rescue loco is several hours away it might be worth trying to restart a loco / DMU rather than declaring it a failure on the windswept fells!

 

[TEW]

But the most significant errors were long before. For example, the first line contingency was for a failed train to be pushed out by the one behind. The operator had two types of train, whose couplings were incompatible, and the timetable scheduled alternate trains to be formed of alternate types of stock. This is Operations 1.01.

There were lots of underlying issues with the process for managing incidents such as the one Kentish Town too. The RAIB report was pretty damning.