Delay Compensation - A "secret" of the rail network?

[bb21]

I can't say that I am surprised a company does not encourage its customers to claim financial compensation to its own detriment.

 

[oversteer]

I have to credit London Midland, to be fair, as they make it very easy to claim Delay Repay via their website or even their iPhone app which has a prominent section allowing you to reclaim.

 

[transmanche]

What would impress me in terms of customer service is if a TOC managed to refund tickets automatically where possible; e.g. holders of advance tickets where they are stored as mobile tickets; print at home tickets; and even paper tickets booked via their own website could all be refunded automatically if the relevant train is delayed.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

The operative word in my post was was require. Allowing people to read the paperwork is fine, but requiring them to read the T&C's to know what they're eligible for truly is absurd because the vast majority of people won't and of those who do, many won't understand them. . . . .

Oh dear!

Let's just create an example closer to home to keep this in perspective. Suppose you were considering starting a new business, (whether it be washing cars, trading nuclear weapons or giving actuarial advice to insurers). I would advise you to draw up Terms and Conditions which you would agree with your clients before contracting with them.
Would you take that advice?

I would then advise you to get your clients to confirm that they agree with your Ts and Cs.
Would you take that advice?

I would then advise you to ensure that your clients had read and understood those Ts and Cs before accepting their agreement.
Would you take that advice?

If I had said to you at any point in the discussion about your new business that it would be absurd for you to expect your clients (dirty cars, weapon dealers or insurance consultants) to read those Ts and Cs, would you have told me that I was being 'absurd'? Maybe you would, but I hope not.
Why would a rail operator be any different?

 

[O L Leigh]

Because - and let's be absolutely clear about this - People do not read everyday contracts. Yes you can lament it all you want, but they don't and I can guarantee you don't. And even if everyone did read every contract, >99% of people aren't lawyers. And ~50% of people have below average IQ's to compound that. Requiring people to read the T&C's is an absurd notion.

I'm sorry, but that doesn't even come close to being an answer. My question is why pick out this one condition from the Conditions of Carriage above all others? Is it just because it appears to be in favour of the passenger? And why not publicise all the other conditions that apply, including the ones that rail staff might like to enforce?

Whether people decide to read them or not and whether people understand them or not, these conditions apply equally to both parties.

O L Leigh

 

[Qwerty133]

I'm sorry, but that doesn't even come close to being an answer. My question is why pick out this one condition from the Conditions of Carriage above all others? Is it just because it appears to be in favour of the passenger? And why not publicise all the other conditions that apply, including the ones that rail staff might like to enforce?

Whether people decide to read them or not and whether people understand them or not, these conditions apply equally to both parties.

O L Leigh

I'm currently looking at the XC passenger charter which states

Postage-paid Delay Repay claim forms are available from ticket offices at stations on our network and on our trains. When trains are seriously disrupted, we will make forms more widely available where possible.

.
Has anyone ever seen any delay repay forms on board XC services? I certainly haven't on my local services (Leicester to Birmingham), but don't want to rule out the possibility elsewhere on their network.

 

[O L Leigh]

Have you asked the conductor for one?

Irrespective, it doesn't devalue the question I am asking.

O L Leigh

 

[bb21]

I'm currently looking at the XC passenger charter which states .
Has anyone ever seen any delay repay forms on board XC services? I certainly haven't on my local services (Leicester to Birmingham), but don't want to rule out the possibility elsewhere on their network.

Not onboard services in public display, no. Then again I have never asked the guard for it.

I don't see the big deal. They are freely available at Leicester station stacked opposite the information point, and I suspect freely available at other stations served by XC too.

I don't quite get the obsession in this thread (not aimed at you). Information on delay compensation is widely available and many TOCs now accept claims submitted online. Whether an announcement is made onboard is immaterial. In real life, if you consider that you are worthy of compensation, you will do your own research and claim accordingly, or do what some people do - not bother with research and just write in and complain anyway. If you do not consider yourself worthy of compensation, then what is the big deal if no announcement is made?

As I said before, I don't find it surprising that railway companies don't encourage passengers to claim financial compensation to their own detriment. They are hardly placing obstacles in the way of people who wish to claim.

 

[Hellfire]

I can't say that I am surprised a company does not encourage its customers to claim financial compensation to its own detriment.

I'm not surprised when it is a TOC. I agree with people who have criticised the comparison between train companies and supermarkets because there is no comparison

Supermarkets operate in a highly competitive environment. If you receive shoddy customer service from one supermarket operator there will be for the majority of people, an alternative just down the road. This makes supermarkets put customer satisfaction high on the agenda.

The majority of rail passengers, whether it be the London commuter or me on my regular long distance trips from the North West to London have no choice of rail operator at all. The TOCs know this and therefore do not have the same incentive to go the extra mile on customer service.

I shop online with Ocado. They promise to match Tesco prices. If they fail to do that on any product I buy they automatically e mail me a voucher for the difference. I don't have to check my invoice with the local Tesco.

Yet Virgin are so not pro-active that they cannot even be bothered to mention the possibility of delay repay to their customers. Even more ironic in the situation I faced last week where the delay was due to signalling issues and presumably VT would be banging in a claim to Network Rail.

DaveNewcastle is, as always, perfectly correct but In the real world people do not read every T&C when they buy a product or service and it's unrealistic to expect them to do so.

 

[O L Leigh]

In the real world people do not read every T&C when they buy a product or service and it's unrealistic to expect them to do so.

Where has this word "require" come from? I haven't seen anyone use it yet, certainly not me.

The Conditions of Carriage are freely available to anyone who wants them. I have merely expressed the opinion that perhaps, if passengers are interested to know the terms of the contract they have entered into and their rights and responsibilities under that contract, they should take the time to have a little read.

O L Leigh

 

[yorksrob]

I'm currently looking at the XC passenger charter which states .
Has anyone ever seen any delay repay forms on board XC services? I certainly haven't on my local services (Leicester to Birmingham), but don't want to rule out the possibility elsewhere on their network.

Yes - but only in virgin days. The train was very late and very overcrowded and an exasperated looking guard came down the train dishing them out to all and sundry.

 

[Starmill]

The Passenger's Charter level of competition is exceeded by loads of TOCs anyway. How many people who use trains do we think have actually read all of the NRCoC and all of the relevant Passenger's Charter for the TOC they are travelling on? Without a doubt there are some clauses in the NRCoC I've never read and there is no way I'm going to read every Passenger's Charter cover-to-cover. Does this really matter? No.

The one that really does annoy me though is Northern - you have to fill in an ordinary 'Comments and Suggestions' form to claim the (basic level of) compensation!

 

[Hellfire]

Where has this word "require" come from? I haven't seen anyone use it yet, certainly not me.

The Conditions of Carriage are freely available to anyone who wants them. I have merely expressed the opinion that perhaps, if passengers are interested to know the terms of the contract they have entered into and their rights and responsibilities under that contract, they should take the time to have a little read.

O L Leigh

I have carefully re-read my post and I don't see the word 'require' in it. Are you seriously suggesting that every passenger should read all the T & Cs when they travel?

We are talking here about the simple concept of a supplier of a service having sufficient concern for their customers to remind them that they are entitled to claim back some of their fare when there has been a delay to their train. Forget all the T & Cs. It's just good customer relations which would enhance the standing of a company in the eyes of the people who pay to use it. Ot's not rocket science.

 

[O L Leigh]

I have carefully re-read my post and I don't see the word 'require' in it. Are you seriously suggesting that every passenger should read all the T & Cs when they travel?

I think you should re-read my posts too.

You may have not used the word "require", but others have. The reason I quoted from your post is because clearly you agree with them. People seem to be thinking that I, among others, are suggesting that passengers must read the Conditions of Carriage, but they are mistaken.

O L Leigh

 

[Chrisgr31]

As already mentioned Southern tend to be good at Delay Repay. On days of significant disruption their Twitter feed will suggest passengers apply for Delay Repay, their on-train staff often mention it when we arrive late enough to qualify for it, at our ticket office there is a display of delay repay forms at the ticket office window, and there used to be a poster about it, but that might have gone now.

However finding the appropriate place on their website can be a nightmare, although at least nowdays you only need to upload your ticket once, and they will keep it for any other qualifying claims.

 

[bb21]

All you've got to do is search "Southern Railway Delay Repay" on google and pick your first result. Similarly it works with London Midland, Southeastern, First Capital Connect, etc.

 

[orpine]

Oh dear!
I would then advise you to ensure that your clients had read and understood those Ts and Cs before accepting their agreement.
Would you take that advice?

I wouldn't expect them to actually read it. I'd make sure they could if they wanted, but I know the T&C's are only there to cover me legally because as far as the law is concerned they will be considered "read". Just like you're expected to know and oblige with every law of the land (including local ordinances) despite it being impossible to know them all.

I'm sorry, but that doesn't even come close to being an answer. My question is why pick out this one condition from the Conditions of Carriage above all others? Is it just because it appears to be in favour of the passenger? And why not publicise all the other conditions that apply, including the ones that rail staff might like to enforce?

Whether people decide to read them or not and whether people understand them or not, these conditions apply equally to both parties.

O L Leigh

They already publicise lots of others. I've seen posters saying I can be penalty fared just for walking into the station to buy the ticket (let alone travelling without one) - I hear constant announcements that if I leave my luggage lying around they'll probably blow it up - if I have a child I have to keep them with me - ones about engineering works - ones about how wonderful the company is in meeting its metrics - ones about all the railcard offers - ones about 2for1 journeys to London - that my ticket is only valid on TOC X's trains and not TOC Y if so marked.
And those are just off the top of my heard.

So let me counter that question - what information do you feel passengers should know that they're not currently told and that's more important than Delay Repay? Because the only important information I can think of is about Delay Repay.

I don't see the big deal. They are freely available at Leicester station stacked opposite the information point, and I suspect freely available at other stations served by XC too.

I don't quite get the obsession in this thread (not aimed at you). Information on delay compensation is widely available

I fear you've missed my first message. The bit about them *not* being readily available at all stations - you have to ask. The bit about most people not being aware. Yes you know about Delay repay, and if everyone you know is a trains boffin, they'll all know too. But regular people don't; try asking some.

They are hardly placing obstacles in the way of people who wish to claim.

I consider having to go out of your way to find a repay form an obstacle; especially if you have to queue for one in the first place (certainly at Leamington and Birmingham New Street where they aren't publicly available as best I can tell).

All you've got to do is search "Southern Railway Delay Repay" on google and pick your first result. Similarly it works with London Midland, Southeastern, First Capital Connect, etc.

This assumes you know it's called "Delay Repay". Until I encountered this forum, I always called it a refund (and still do). Searching for that gets a very different set of results because it's a different thing (unused tickets).

 

[bb21]

I fear you've missed my first message. The bit about them *not* being readily available at all stations - you have to ask. The bit about most people not being aware. Yes you know about Delay repay, and if everyone you know is a trains boffin, they'll all know too. But regular people don't; try asking some.

I think you have deliberately missed out part of my earlier post.

In real life, if you consider that you are worthy of compensation, you will do your own research and claim accordingly, or do what some people do - not bother with research and just write in and complain anyway. If you do not consider yourself worthy of compensation, then what is the big deal if no announcement is made?

I think that quite adequately addresses your point.

I consider having to go out of your way to find a repay form an obstacle; especially if you have to queue for one in the first place (certainly at Leamington and Birmingham New Street where they aren't publicly available as best I can tell).

Why not just write to customer services about your delay without a form? You don't need a form and it is no different to how complaints are made in other walks of life. You will be compensated accordingly. Or do you find that an obstacle as well?

This assumes you know it's called "Delay Repay". Until I encountered this forum, I always called it a refund (and still do). Searching for that gets a very different set of results because it's a different thing (unused tickets).

Searching "Southern Railway delay compensation" gives me the Delay Repay link as the top result. Same for "Southern Railway delay refund". Same for "London Midland delay refund". Searching "First Capital Connect Compensation" brings up the Delay Repay link as the second result. Even using your example as obscure as "Southeastern refund" gives me the Delay Repay link as the first result.

 

[orpine]

I think that quite adequately addresses your point.

Why not just write to customer services about your delay without a form? You don't need a form and it is no different to how complaints are made in other walks of life. You will be compensated accordingly. Or do you find that an obstacle as well?

There's a considerable psychological difference between using a prescribed form and following a method (i.e. - knowing there's a delay compensation scheme), and writing to the company with a stand alone "complaint".
Basic human conditioning.

It usually takes a certain type of person to complain, compounded by the fact that company responses range from "sure" to "bog off" to complaints usually, which puts me off wasting time reporting things often. Far more people are likely to do it if they know there's a scheme in place.

Yes, it is findable if you know to look for it and what to use to look for it. But the entire point of this thread is - many TOC's don't advertise the fact it exists in the first place. You don't look for something you don't know exists.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Re: reading Terms and Conditions before entering into a contract

I wouldn't expect them to actually read it. I'd make sure they could if they wanted, but I know the T&C's are only there to cover me legally because as far as the law is concerned they will be considered "read". Just like you're expected to know and oblige with every law of the land (including local ordinances) despite it being impossible to know them all.

No.
[For clarity, lets keep a clear distinction between the T&Cs of a Contact between 2 people/bodies, and, "every law of the land", civil, criminal and as I think you are suggesting, Common Law.]

Have you remembered Lord Denning's famous "red hand pointing to an unfair term" Judgement in Spurling v Bradshaw? "the more unreasonable a clause is, the greater the notice which must be given of it. Some clauses which I have seen would need to be printed in red ink on the face of the document with a red hand pointing to it before the notice could be held to be sufficient."
That did not expect a contracing party to assume that T&Cs are read - and that was more than 50 years ago. Since then we've had several rounds of every developing consumer legislation.

Please spend some time to bring your opinions up to date.

 

[O L Leigh]

They already publicise lots of others. I've seen posters saying I can be penalty fared just for walking into the station to buy the ticket (let alone travelling without one) - I hear constant announcements that if I leave my luggage lying around they'll probably blow it up - if I have a child I have to keep them with me - ones about engineering works - ones about how wonderful the company is in meeting its metrics - ones about all the railcard offers - ones about 2for1 journeys to London - that my ticket is only valid on TOC X's trains and not TOC Y if so marked.
And those are just off the top of my heard.

So let me counter that question - what information do you feel passengers should know that they're not currently told and that's more important than Delay Repay? Because the only important information I can think of is about Delay Repay.

Not all of those are even Conditions of Carriage. In fact, quite a few of the restrictions you have mentioned aren't even included in the conditions.

I'm not going to answer your counter-question because I do not wish to be deflected off the point of your thread. As I and others have said, the information about delay repay is freely and readily available for anyone that wants it.

It seems important to you to prove the point that the rail industry wants to keep it a secret in spite of the evidence to the contrary. You clearly have an idea of what it means to be "readily available", but that doesn't seem to match up with other people's ideas. That's fair enough.

But it would be unrealistic to expect the TOCs to advertise the compensation policy or send out armies of staff with arms full of delay repay leaflets. What other service provider or vendor is required to advertise their own redress policies? None that I can think of. All of these policies are contained within their contracts or the legislation that governs such transactions, all of which are available to the customer just as the National Rail Conditions of Carriage are. In all cases of redress it is up to the customer to make a claim.

O L Leigh

 

[DJL]

What other service provider or vendor is required to advertise their own redress policies? None that I can think of.

Exactly what I was trying to say with my poor supermarket comparison.

 

[Bijgc]

I have to agree with Orpine, in my experience, Delay-Repay is very poorly advertised and the majority of rail users that I have spoken to don't even know it exists. I grant that claim forms are available if you ask for them, but they are rarely displayed prominently. Obviously, it is in the TOC's interests to do little to remedy this situation.

I would love to know how much more/less TOCs are paying in compensation under Delay-Repay rather than under the automatic punctuality/reliability targets that used to provide recompense to the season-ticket holders without requiring those who have already been disrupted to make further effort.

I am also as yet to see any prominent posters or hear any on-board/on-platform announcements apologising for delay and advising that it was possibly to recoup some of your costs if you had been delayed. I have tried asking station-staff at East Croydon to make announcements during periods of major disruption; an example being during the snows of last year (although it may above been 2012) with everything delayed, no information and platforms packed to the hilt. An announcement along the lines of : 'We're really sorry for the disruption, but if your journey is delayed by more than 30 minutes, you are entitled to compensation, please go to...' would have gone a long way to easing discontent amongst hundreds if not thousands of commuters. The response? Platform staff laughed at me, asked 'why should we [Southern] pay compensation - its not our fault it is snowing!' and asked me how I expected Southern to compensate all of the disrupted passengers as the bill would run into thousands…. Three staff were in the platform 5/6 control room at this time and none would acknowledge that Delay-Repay was even applicable in the disruption. I gave up at this point.

How about those with access to a PA system, be it platform or train, pledge to advise passengers obviously facing delays that some of the money they have already paid could be claimed back? Although I already know about this scheme, I would have no problem hearing it again tacked onto the end of another 'xxx are sorry for any inconvenience caused'….

 

[O L Leigh]

I am also as yet to see any prominent posters or hear any on-board/on-platform announcements apologising for delay and advising that it was possibly to recoup some of your costs if you had been delayed. I have tried asking station-staff at East Croydon to make announcements during periods of major disruption; an example being during the snows of last year (although it may above been 2012) with everything delayed, no information and platforms packed to the hilt. An announcement along the lines of : 'We're really sorry for the disruption, but if your journey is delayed by more than 30 minutes, you are entitled to compensation, please go to...' would have gone a long way to easing discontent amongst hundreds if not thousands of commuters. The response? Platform staff laughed at me, asked 'why should we [Southern] pay compensation - its not our fault it is snowing!' and asked me how I expected Southern to compensate all of the disrupted passengers as the bill would run into thousands…. Three staff were in the platform 5/6 control room at this time and none would acknowledge that Delay-Repay was even applicable in the disruption. I gave up at this point.

Not all delays entitle passengers to a refund. As it states in the Conditions of Carriage, it is only those where the railway is at fault. Those caused by outside factors (e.g. suicide, adverse weather, lineside fires, etc) do not require the TOCs to refund passengers delayed. So the platform staff were actually entirely correct.

But them you already knew that because you've read the Conditions of Carriage, haven't you...?

How about those with access to a PA system, be it platform or train, pledge to advise passengers obviously facing delays that some of the money they have already paid could be claimed back? Although I already know about this scheme, I would have no problem hearing it again tacked onto the end of another 'xxx are sorry for any inconvenience caused'….

Why is the railway being singled out? Why should the TOCs be made to do this when the insurance industry and others are not required to?

If you buy a faulty product or get poor service you have a number of choices, and it's up to the consumer to decide what they want to do about it. They can do a) nothing and chalk it down to experience, b) moan about it and take their custom elsewhere in the future, or c) seek redress. In no other industry is there a requirement to chase after the consumer and check whether they are happy or not but, as with all other industries, if the consumer comes with a complaint it, will be investigated.

O L Leigh

 

[Deerfold]

Not all delays entitle passengers to a refund. As it states in the Conditions of Carriage, it is only those where the railway is at fault. Those caused by outside factors (e.g. suicide, adverse weather, lineside fires, etc) do not require the TOCs to refund passengers delayed. So the platform staff were actually entirely correct.

But them you already knew that because you've read the Conditions of Carriage, haven't you...?

As one of the newer franchises Southern operate Delay Repay.

http://www.southernrailway.com/download/3139.5/passengers-charter/

If you arrive more than 30 minutes late at your destination because of a delay to one of our services we will
give compensation irrespective of what caused the delay, cancellation or missed connection that affected you.

 

[Wolfie]

I think the replacement of the faulty item is a legal requirement, but the offer to reimburse the cost as well may not be (I ought to further consult my friend in retail).

SOGA (Sale of Goods Act) - very briefly and simply, right to refund, replacement or (if you accept it) repair - not all (or indeed more than 1) of them!

 

[O L Leigh]

As one of the newer franchises Southern operate Delay Repay.

http://www.southernrailway.com/download/3139.5/passengers-charter/

Well that's up to them. While they have to provide compensation in line with the Conditions of Carriage it's their decision to go beyond these requirements. However, I wonder if this compensation is simply a travel voucher rather than a refund. If so it's not much to write home about.

O L Leigh

 

[Bijgc]

As Deerfold helpfully points out, the Delay-Repay schemes entitle compensation regardless of the cause of the delay, so the platform-staff referred to in your previous point were actually entirely wrong.

I don't believe that the railway is being singled out - similar schemes exist for air passengers within the EU and maybe coach passenger soon too. As for forcing them to advertise this, well, you would have thought it would be an example of 'Good Customer Service', which I'm sure all TOCs aspire to deliver, at least according to their Passenger Charters.

As for the available actions once you’ve experienced bad service, were more people aware of the redress schemes available, then the need to advertise these schemes would reduce. In this period of relatively recent introduction, I feel the TOCs could be a bit more communicative about their existence.

I’m sure that the TOC will be claiming from Network Rail for any valid delay causation, indeed, according to the TSSA, there is a +£150m yearly discrepancy between monies claimed by TOCs from Network Rail for delays, and the amounts paid out to customers through schemes such as Delay Repay (http://tiny url.com/c6ldmwr), so I do believe that there is scope for greater advertising and uptake of Delay Repay.

As for the travel voucher being not much to write home about, I agree, it’s a pittance! Lets not even get started about rates of compensation or the 30 minute delay requirement. However, they do add up over the course of a year and provide some welcome relief upon Annual-renewal day.

 

[Muzer]

Well that's up to them. While they have to provide compensation in line with the Conditions of Carriage it's their decision to go beyond these requirements. However, I wonder if this compensation is simply a travel voucher rather than a refund. If so it's not much to write home about.

O L Leigh

It's a travel voucher that can be exchanged for cash at a station (Southern are the only ones who do this).

And it's not up to them. It's a franchise commitment.

 

[Greenback]

similar schemes exist for air passengers within the EU

I've not seen any airlines advertising this, in fact, from what I've read on the web, they seem to be very reluctant to pay out anything at all.

The rail compensation schemes are in the public domain, and I am sure I have seen leaflets on display in both Llanelli and Swansea stations. I can't speak for many other locations, as I already know about compensation for delayed journeys I tend not to go looking for the information. But as far as I am concerned it's all out there if you want it, even if TOC's don't go around handing forms out quite as proactively as they did before the rise of the internet.

Could it be better? Yes, there's always room for improvement, but it is not a secret.