Construction progress: TPE 350/4

[northwichcat]

Will this be possible I thought they were needed for extra WCML services and Birmingham locals?

When are the extra services being introduced and when are the 350/3s going to be ready to use?

 

[387star]

Will they be rerouted via Bolton when hat line is electrified?

 

[Manchester77]

When are the extra services being introduced and when are the 350/3s going to be ready to use?

I'd guess December 14 and the first units have just been delivered so I see your point that yes they can sorry

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Will they be rerouted via Bolton when hat line is electrified?

Not as I understand it, I believe they are staying on the Chat Moss route.

 

[edwin_m]

The modern world continues to confound me, why do TPX first have new electric trains build before the line is electrified and when they do get them, they shove them into service before thinking about adding the vinyls.

The electrification over Chat Moss completed the electric route between Manchester and Glasgow/Edinburgh back in December 2013. The trains arrived just in time for the first one to go into service just before New Year. Compared this with what looks like happening on Manchester-Liverpool, Todmorden Curve etc, this has to count as a rare case of "a plan coming together"!

The trains were delivered a bit late and that is probably the reason they went into service in a plain livery. I'm guessing they will try to get them all vinyled up between now and the May timetable change, because now all have been delivered they have several spare each day as confirmed by the post with the diagrams. In the new timetable most of them need to be in service every day so it will be that much more difficult to get time on them in the workshop.

 

[Bodie]

Wrong again

I struggle to keep up, I really do.

I was of the belief that the Airport - Edinburgh/Glasgow trains would return to run via Bolton and Chorley once that line is electrified.

From what I read in this thread, the 350/4's are going to go to LM but not until at least 2016?
If this is the case, whats the logic behind this?, and what will TPX be using after that date?

Thanks for the diagrams. One diagram seems to take a unit as far as Oxenholme, where it sits around and then returns to Manchester?
Am I reading this right and if so why is this?

Those are the diagrams for one particular day, will they stay the same.

For example will AK102 be a 350/4 from now on?

 

[transmanche]

From what I read in this thread, the 350/4's are going to go to LM but not until at least 2016?
If this is the case, whats the logic behind this?, and what will TPX be using after that date?

I think people assumed that because LM originally ordered the 20 350s, that they would be sub-leasing 10 of them to TPE for a limited period. But that's not the case; LM's involvement was merely for the sake of convenience. TPE lease their 10 units directly from Angel Trains. So I guess TPE can/will keep them for the length of the leasing contract.

Of course, with more TPE electrification, TPE will want more electric trains. And it would make operational sense to have a uniform fleet. So I suspect that at some point, TPE will give up the 350s. And LM would be an obvious destination for them. But I don't think it's as simple to say that TPE will be losing their 350s to LM in 2016...

 

[Starmill]

There's me and paul too who are both members of SCC and here!

We're just like one big happy family of Mancuinans (No offence to the highly valued contributors to both boards who reside outside of Greater Manchester). I don't actually read anything apart from the Manchester threads on SSC anyway


I recently heard Geeves here is Tony_H1 too:

That person is me Tony_H1

 

[Class377/5]

Wrong again

I struggle to keep up, I really do.

I was of the belief that the Airport - Edinburgh/Glasgow trains would return to run via Bolton and Chorley once that line is electrified.

From what I read in this thread, the 350/4's are going to go to LM but not until at least 2016?
If this is the case, whats the logic behind this?, and what will TPX be using after that date?

Thanks for the diagrams. One diagram seems to take a unit as far as Oxenholme, where it sits around and then returns to Manchester?
Am I reading this right and if so why is this?

Those are the diagrams for one particular day, will they stay the same.

For example will AK102 be a 350/4 from now on?

The diagrams are different on Thurs-Sun and with things changing there may be last minute alterations.

 

[northwichcat]

I was of the belief that the Airport - Edinburgh/Glasgow trains would return to run via Bolton and Chorley once that line is electrified.

When he was Transport Secretary Philip Hammond said Manchester to Scotland services would continue to operate via Wigan even after Bolton electrification as it would allow the needs of Bolton commuters to be better met.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I think he's actually suggesting TPE will sublease 350/3s from LM to strengthen services during the Commonwealth Games even though the post says 350/4s.

Ah well that would make sense!

 

[thealexweb]

Not as I understand it, I believe they are staying on the Chat Moss route.

Wow what a terrible decision. The Chorley and Bolton route is much shorter and will be much quicker post-electrification. This belief that Bolton passengers don't want or need long distance services is frustrating.

Why is Wigan getting such a good deal out of all this? Despite Bolton having higher tickets sales than both Wigan stations combined it is seen as not a priority.

The DfT needs to get its act together and look at permanently merging Edinburgh / Glasgow to Manchester services in to Manchester to London services. If they want to call at Wigan so badly they could use the Preston -> Wigan NW -> Bolton route that will be ready for EMUs from 2017.

 

[edwin_m]

If the Scotland trains run via Bolton they will be carrying fresh air between Bolton and Glasgow/Edinburgh simply so they can provide capacity for Bolton commuters, and people wanting to use them for longer journeys will be put off by how busy they are at peak times between Bolton and Manchester. Keeping these trains for long-distance passengers is better for TOC revenue, modal shift to rail and the environment in general, and ultimately the path via Bolton can be used by a long high-density EMU rake* which provides a lot more space for commuters.

And wouldn't using slow-loading Pendolinos through platforms 13 and 14, which are too long for many of the stations on the route, just make everything worse?

*Yes I know this is rather theoretical at present.

 

[thealexweb]

If the Scotland trains run via Bolton they will be carrying fresh air between Bolton and Glasgow/Edinburgh simply so they can provide capacity for Bolton commuters, and people wanting to use them for longer journeys will be put off by how busy they are at peak times between Bolton and Manchester. Keeping these trains for long-distance passengers is better for TOC revenue, modal shift to rail and the environment in general, and ultimately the path via Bolton can be used by a long high-density EMU rake* which provides a lot more space for commuters.

And wouldn't using slow-loading Pendolinos through platforms 13 and 14, which are too long for many of the stations on the route, just make everything worse?

*Yes I know this is rather theoretical at present.

I have used the Bolton to Edinburgh services for several years now and when I have I can think of only three occasions when I have been be able to get a seat the whole way. Its usually all seats full and lots standing in every carriage, so no they would not be carrying fresh air.

Some stations already on the route are too short for 11 coach trains e.g. Haymarket. Yes not ideal but will be resolved slowly over time. Also when Picadilly gains its Platforms 15 and 16 the bottleneck issues will mostly be resolved.

 

[richardio123]

We're just like one big happy family of Mancuinans (No offence to the highly valued contributors to both boards who reside outside of Greater Manchester). I don't actually read anything apart from the Manchester threads on SSC anyway

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

From what I read in this thread, the 350/4's are going to go to LM but not until at least 2016?
If this is the case, whats the logic behind this?, and what will TPX be using after that date?

NR will have wired Manchester-Blackpool by 2016, and Manchester-York by 2018.
Bolton-Wigan is also down for 2017 (probably Oxenholme-Windermere too).
The franchise, in parallel with Northern, is to be rebid in 2015 to start in 2016.
The service spec for both TPE and Northern can be expected to change with the new franchise, with maybe some route swaps.

Practically nothing will happen before the new franchise is awarded and the TOC/DfT contract delivers something new in the way of rolling stock.
It takes 2-ish years to build anything new, so no new trains before 2017/18.
When TPE starts getting its new trains, they can decide to cascade the 350s if they don't fit the overall fleet requirement.
It also depends what happens to the 185s (all currently maintained by Siemens).

 

[snail]

I have used the Bolton to Edinburgh services for several years now and when I have I can think of only three occasions when I have been be able to get a seat the whole way. Its usually all seats full and lots standing in every carriage, so no they would not be carrying fresh air.

Only as far as Chorley. I travel to Preston and usually get a seat at Bolton or at worst Chorley Most of the overcrowding is commuter traffic to Bolton and Chorley.

I suspect you are one of a very small number travelling from Bolton to Edinburgh. Bolton doesn't need an hourly direct service to Scotland, there are plenty of trains to connect to the WCML at Preston or Wigan.

 

[northwichcat]

Only as far as Chorley. I travel to Preston and usually get a seat at Bolton or at worst Chorley Most of the overcrowding is commuter traffic to Bolton and Chorley.

I've seen 185s on Scottish services on Saturdays have a considerable number standing both arriving at Preston and leaving Preston.

 

[Bob Ames]

Wow what a terrible decision. The Chorley and Bolton route is much shorter and will be much quicker post-electrification. This belief that Bolton passengers don't want or need long distance services is frustrating.

Why is Wigan getting such a good deal out of all this? Despite Bolton having higher tickets sales than both Wigan stations combined it is seen as not a priority.

Because Bolton isn't a WCML station. These WCML services are being brought back to where they belong: on the WCML. As for fairness, it is simply a historical accident that the WCML runs through Wigan, and will therefore always be a priority, just like any other town that hosts a WCML station.

The DfT needs to get its act together and look at permanently merging Edinburgh / Glasgow to Manchester services in to Manchester to London services. If they want to call at Wigan so badly they could use the Preston -> Wigan NW -> Bolton route that will be ready for EMUs from 2017.

Not going to happen. The DfT spent a whole heap of money on the Chat Moss electrification and want to see wheels on those tracks - they are certainly not going to let it gather rust just because a faster route becomes available.

 

[snail]

I've seen 185s on Scottish services on Saturdays have a considerable number standing both arriving at Preston and leaving Preston.

But how many are going to Bolton from the North or vice versa? The argument I'm countering is that Bolton needs an hourly service to Scotland.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

But how many are going to Bolton from the North or vice versa? The argument I'm countering is that Bolton needs an hourly service to Scotland.

Funny how Bolton and Manchester apparently deserve an hourly service to Scotland, but St Helens and Liverpool deserve precisely none...
On a bad day, from 2017, you might be on a Scotland train that serves both Bolton and Wigan.
There's plenty of scope for alternating routes or innovative portion working to serve all major northern towns, not necessarily hourly.

 

[Nym]

Is it not the case that JTC should be the priority to give the best journey times for longer distance services? Rather than getting to the WCML as quickly as possible, should one not be minimizing the journey time to Preston?

Traveling via Bolton doesn't mean one needs to stop there(!)

 

[Starmill]

Because Bolton isn't a WCML station. These WCML services are being brought back to where they belong: on the WCML. As for fairness, it is simply a historical accident that the WCML runs through Wigan, and will therefore always be a priority, just like any other town that hosts a WCML station.

I think that's partially the reason, but Wigan and Bolton are similar - and as regional centres in Greater Manchester both get very good services. There's an excellent rationale for the long-distance trains to join the main line as quickly as possible though.

Not going to happen. The DfT spent a whole heap of money on the Chat Moss electrification and want to see wheels on those tracks - they are certainly not going to let it gather rust just because a faster route becomes available.

Well that's nonsense isn't it; there are going to be a whole load of trains from Liverpool to Manchester (and Manchester Airport and Newcastle and other places) across that line! And the stopper will go to 2tph and be electric too?

The Manchester - Scotland trains don't have to use that line, it's just quicker if they do and allows the long distance traffic to be better separated from the commuter traffic (at peak times the Scotland services are first stop Preston on leaving Oxford Road).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Is it not the case that JTC should be the priority to give the best journey times for longer distance services? Rather than getting to the WCML as quickly as possible, should one not be minimizing the journey time to Preston?

Traveling via Bolton doesn't mean one needs to stop there(!)

I agree with the first part of your post fully; the priority is getting to Preston quickly. But would a fast path be available to do that given the number of trains on that line that need to serve Bolton and the other stations on it? Adlington, Blackrod, Lostock, Moses Gate, Farnworth and Kearsley already only have an hourly service on that line and Clifton has hardly any trains at all. Would that capacity not be better off used improving service at these places?

 

[snowball]

Is Manchester-Preston really quicker via Newton-le-Willows than via Bolton? Will it be still be so after the Bolton route is electrified? By what margin?

 

[fowler9]

Surely it makes more sense to run expresses to Scotland via Newton Le Willows which has naff all stops on the way as opposed to via the densely populated route via Bolton. Run feeder services through Bolton. I'm sorry if the people of Bolton feel overlooked but Liverpool is much bigger and has been a branch line for decades.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Is Manchester-Preston really quicker via Newton-le-Willows than via Bolton? Will it be still be so after the Bolton route is electrified? By what margin?

Well it goes through Eccles on its way to the West Coast Main Line as opposed to frequently used commuter stations on the Bolton route. What do you reckon?

 

[BantamMenace]

Agree with the two above. Scotland services go via Newtonlewillows, manc-Preston 2tph all stops via Bolton, manc-Blackpool 2tph semi fast via Bolton, manc-barrow/Windermere portion working split at Lancaster 1tph semi fast via Bolton. That'd be my post electrification timetable. Not to mention the extra services through Bolton from Blackburn and the Wigan direction.

 

[thealexweb]

Because Bolton isn't a WCML station. These WCML services are being brought back to where they belong: on the WCML. As for fairness, it is simply a historical accident that the WCML runs through Wigan, and will therefore always be a priority, just like any other town that hosts a WCML station.



Not going to happen. The DfT spent a whole heap of money on the Chat Moss electrification and want to see wheels on those tracks - they are certainly not going to let it gather rust just because a faster route becomes available.

Bolton is on a spur of the WCML. Should other stations e.g. Stockport, on the spur only get short distance services?

And with the WCML getting full why are forcing more trains on to it when faster alternative routes are available? Manchester to Preston services should use the Manchester to Preston line.

If all the Manchester to Scotland services moved back over to their proper route. All that lovely new overhead equipment would be used daily by Northern services from December so it won't have been a waste at all (With the possible exception of half a mile of connecting track that connects the Chat Moss line with the WCML).

 

[TheGrew]

I also agree with the above comments about getting the traffic to the WCML as soon as possible. I also imagine that pathing via Bolton is going to be more challenging than via Wigan.

 

[thealexweb]

Well it goes through Eccles on its way to the West Coast Main Line as opposed to frequently used commuter stations on the Bolton route. What do you reckon?

The Bolton route is faster than the Willows route even with its current handicaps e.g. unelectrified so slower accelerationing DMUs, 75mph speed limit and more scheduled stops.

For example. 05:58 Manchester Airport to Edinburgh via Wigan. It takes 31 mins to travel between Orsdall Lane Junction and Euxton Junction (06:19 - 06:50) calling only at Wigan.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y82682/2014/04/14/advanced

However a later Manchester Airport to Edinburgh via Bolton takes only 29 mins (07:48 - 08:17) to go between those two junctions despite having to call twice at Bolton and Chorley.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y82685/2014/04/14/advanced

Once the Bolton route is electrified and has its increased speed limits (100mph on some stretches) it will be an even quicker route to / from Scotland.

 

[WatcherZero]

Is Manchester-Preston really quicker via Newton-le-Willows than via Bolton? Will it be still be so after the Bolton route is electrified? By what margin?

Despite the Wigan route being much longer the Manchester-Preston journey time via both routes is nearly identical, the Bolton line is heavily congested and has many stops which isnt the case with Chat Moss (just two stations with infrequent service).

Wigan route also has the advantage of picking up travellers for Scotland from Merseyside and West Lancashire whereas the Bolton route offers an easy connection at Preston anyway and many people from stations along the Bolton route would have had to change at Bolton or Preston anyway, i.e. the Bolton call would only benefit people for whom Bolton was their closest station whereas the Wigan call has a much larger catchment area.

Would be surprised if there wasnt demand for a few morning and evening calls at Bolton in the future.


Enjoyed my first double 350 formation last friday, loading was comfortably full with a couple standing around the doors (handful of seats available if they didnt mind sitting next to a stranger), most of the seats were reserved from Wigan NW, the rear unit doors being locked at Oxford Road confused people on both the platform and the train, made worse by the really confusing PA announcement 'This is a service to Edinburgh, the rear unit will terminate at Preston, This is a service to Edinburgh the rear unit will be locked out of use at Oxford Road.' In the end they just locked the doors at Oxford Road (lot of passengers unsure whether they would be kicked off the rear unit) The PID's were displaying 'please move to the front three carriages' constantly from just after leaving Piccadilly to Wigan (PIDs think its a 185) the other thing that confused me was the announcement said the rear unit would terminate at Preston but the rear unit was full of seat reservation cards from Wigan to Edinburgh.