Scotrail Franchise - Abellio

[47802]

If I'd specified 'scenic' trains and got 158s with moved seats, I'd be raising a right ruckuss.

Well its one thing to run HST's on the busy routes between the major cities, but I expect its another running them on the scenic routes, even if they have to run more units than currently to accommodate the presumably reduced seating capacity, I suspect thats significantly cheaper than running a Loco hauled train, or an HST.

I expect the benefit and return on running some fancy glass roofed carriages is fairly marginal anyway, a steam train will probably have a greater effect, and you could always look at sticking some cameras on the train to give alternate views.

 

[Clip]

Hitachi have excelled themselves in the field of renewables - this seems to be a train that runs on fresh air!!!

How so? I can see a Pan on the back of your impressively large picture.

 

[HowardGWR]

I gather from knowledgeable colleagues that these will not be required (or able) to run at 125 mph? Just going back to the HSTs, where in Scotland (not ECML or WCML) can you run at 125 mph?

 

[Altnabreac]

I gather from knowledgeable colleagues that these will not be required (or able) to run at 125 mph? Just going back to the HSTs, where in Scotland (not ECML or WCML) can you run at 125 mph?

According to the Scotland route plan the only track in Scotland at 110mph or faster is on the WCML between Carstairs and Carlisle.

See p35 here:
http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse...ure plans/route plans/scotland route plan.pdf

 

[petegunstone]

How so? I can see a Pan on the back of your impressively large picture.

It's a silly comment, really, but there is no OHLE in the picture...

 

[scotsman]

According to the Scotland route plan the only track in Scotland at 110mph or faster is on the WCML between Carstairs and Carlisle.

See p35 here:
http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse...ure plans/route plans/scotland route plan.pdf

Carstairs-Carlisle, Wallyford-Grantshouse (in sections)

 

[Clip]

It's a silly comment, really, but there is no OHLE in the picture...

You're not looking hard enough - theyre hidden by the roof struts.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Hitachi has now put out a press release: http://www.hitachirail-eu.com/media...e61761/20141009-HRE-EGIPcontractwin_FINAL.pdf

It almost, but not quite, confirms a 23m length for the Scotrail trains (it only refers to the AT200 mockup).
Worth noting Hitachi are preferred supplier, so contracts not yet signed.
Nothing mentioned yet about financing, or maintenance.
I imagine there might be some chance of synergy with the Hitachi-owned IEP facilities in Scotland.

 

[sprinterguy]

Nothing mentioned yet about financing, or maintenance.
I imagine there might be some chance of synergy with the Hitachi-owned IEP facilities in Scotland.

The new electric trains will be maintained at a new depot at Millerhill, which is being installed as part of the EGIP electrification:

http://www.egip.info/projects/millerhill-electric-train-depot
Millerhill Electric Train Depot
To support the continued sustainable growth of Scotland’s railway a new electric train depot is required for a new East of Scotland electric train fleet. Network Rail’s existing Millerhill railway yard has been identified and selected for site development...

Existing train stabling and depot facilities are already operating at full capacity and cannot be easily expanded

Transport Scotland, First ScotRail and Network Rail examined a number of potential sites in Central Scotland for the proposed new facility and Millerhill was identified as the most suitable strategic site with easy rail access to Edinburgh Waverley station and is in any case already an operational railway facility

 

[Blindtraveler]

This seams a tad waistfull unless the DMU Depot at Haymarket will move over to maintaining the HST Fleat as well as the Fife DMU Fleat?

 

[Altnabreac]

The new electric trains will be maintained at a new depot at Millerhill, which is being installed as part of the EGIP electrification:

Does make you wonder if it would make sense for the Edinburgh IEP maintenance requirement to move to Millerhill as well, allowing Craigentinny to become purely an HST depot for Abellio Scotrail?

 

[sprinterguy]

Does make you wonder if it would make sense for the Edinburgh IEP maintenance requirement to move to Millerhill as well, allowing Craigentinny to become purely an HST depot for Abellio Scotrail?

That would certainly make sense to me.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

This seams a tad waistfull unless the DMU Depot at Haymarket will move over to maintaining the HST Fleat as well as the Fife DMU Fleat?

It’s a difficult one: It sounds likely that Haymarket depot cannot be expanded to accommodate both the units needed for the Fife diesel services and the new EMU fleet. I presume that the increase in fleet allocation would be sizeable to accommodate 24 x 4-car and 46 x 3-car EMUs alongside a remainder of 170s compared to the current allocation of 2 and 3-car DMUs, and as such a new depot is the only solution. Plus, the manufacturers do like to have a purpose built maintenance facility to get the best out of their shiny new train fleets.

However, this then only leaves Haymarket with a small allocation of diesel units for the remainder of the Fife and Borders line services, and how long they remain diesel-worked, especially in the case of the former, is anybody’s guess.

 

[tbtc]

The ITT specification for Glasgow South electrics (i.e. The 314s routes) does include Wifi, In Cab CCTV and 2 dedicated Cycle spaces, none of which the 314s currently have.

The question is when does that have to be achieved by and do the Franchisee do it by upgrading 314s or just by replacing them with cascaded stock by 2019 or so?

Cheers for confirming

If Abellio had been judged purely by their other uk franchises they currently operate maybe they wouldn't have won, no new trains introduced by them plus performance and stock refurbishment standards seem little more than mediocre

You could argue that Abellio have delivered on their other franchises, in line with the requirements that they were given

Far more elaborate than what has actually been announced, though. What we will probably be seeing will be 156s or 158s with more bike and luggage space and seats that line up with the windows. No cutting holes out of anything, by the looks of it.

Aww

The "tourist" trains seems to be a bit of a damp squib - the chatter a few months ago suggested something significant but the reality is going to be some 1980s DMUs with a few seats taken out (to make the other ones line up with windows, plus extra luggage room)?

Feels like a bit of an anticlimax!

It’s great, isn’t it? The way to take Scotrail into the future is to take it back to the seventies and eighties: Type 2 diesels back on the West Highland, and mark 3s back on the Inter-city routes!

Shame there's no plans to bring back the Class 27 though - Abellio out!

I have to wonder why there is no mention at all about the Fife Circles, in any documents from yesterday

All other diesel lines are either getting HSTs or "tourist trains" - Fife overlooked (for now):

• Wick gets "tourist trains"
• Kyle gets "tourist trains"
• Mallaig gets "tourist trains"
• Oban gets "tourist trains"
• Stranraer gets "tourist trains"
• Dumfries gets "tourist trains"
• Tweedbank gets "tourist trains"
• Cowdenbeath... doesn't :cry:

...so, if we assume that the DMU fleet on 1 January 2020 (i.e. once the remaining commitments are electrified - Shotts etc) is 170s for the Fife Circle (and the semi fasts to Dundee/ Perth plus the peak extra to Golf Street) and refurbished 158s for all other DMU duties then can anyone work out how many of each class that would require?

Also, if Fife keeps its 170s and the Borders gets 158s, presumably the direct link from Newcraighall/ Brunstane to South Gyle/ Fife is cut down to peak only (with the Borders services terminating at Waverley during the daytime)?

Still think a legal challenge unlikely.

I hope there's no challenge.

Whilst I won't pretend to know the minitia of the different bids, it'd be a bad thing if every losing bidder takes to the courts - hopefully the WCML franchise was a one off.

 

[sprinterguy]

Aww

The "tourist" trains seems to be a bit of a damp squib - the chatter a few months ago suggested something significant but the reality is going to be some 1980s DMUs with a few seats taken out (to make the other ones line up with windows, plus extra luggage room)?

Feels like a bit of an anticlimax!

I have to agree: The chosen solution does seem rather pedestrian compared to what the specification could have encouraged, however eminently sensible it is.

I quite fancied the idea of travelling the West Highland in five years time, looking up at the slopes of Ben Dorain through the panoramic roof as we rounded the horseshoe curve, with a glass chalice of something chilled and alcoholic in hand much in the style of the “Golden Pass” scenic train that I caught in Switzerland a few months ago! I’ll just have to content myself with the thought of a well-positioned seat in a 158 (or 156) and a wee dram of something off the buffet trolley!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

All other diesel lines are either getting HSTs or "tourist trains" - Fife overlooked (for now):

• Wick gets "tourist trains"
• Kyle gets "tourist trains"
• Mallaig gets "tourist trains"
• Oban gets "tourist trains"
• Stranraer gets "tourist trains"
• Dumfries gets "tourist trains"
• Tweedbank gets "tourist trains"
• Cowdenbeath... doesn't :cry:

How disappointing, that international visitors to Scotland will never get to experience the full majestic scenic splendour of such evocative townships as Dunfermline, Cowdenbeath and Thornton Junction!

On a serious note, when you list all the services that are to be granted “scenic” status out like that, I seriously wonder whether there would be enough 158s to go around? When you consider that twenty five units are allocated to Inverness for the Kyle and North Highland services anyway, leaving twenty three units that could potentially be available at Haymarket, of which eight are the theoretical Northern bunch.

 

[47802]

Well despite what it says about Tourist Trains couldn't the Dumfries route end up with 170's, are not a lot of the flows on that route fairly short distance and commuter eg Dumfries Carlisle etc, or the West Highland line to stay 156?

 

[adrock1976]

What I would have liked to have seen in the Abellio bid was a plan of some sort to get the line between Shields Road and Bellgrove electrified, which would enable Glasgow Crossrail to get up and running.

In peace

Adam

 

[herschell]

I agree as travellers getting off at Queen Street either have to walk or take the bus to Central just now

 

[Altnabreac]

I have to agree: The chosen solution does seem rather pedestrian compared to what the specification could have encouraged, however eminently sensible it is.

I quite fancied the idea of travelling the West Highland in five years time, looking up at the slopes of Ben Dorain through the panoramic roof as we rounded the horseshoe curve, with a glass chalice of something chilled and alcoholic in hand much in the style of the “Golden Pass” scenic train that I caught in Switzerland a few months ago! I’ll just have to content myself with the thought of a well-positioned seat in a 158 (or 156) and a wee dram of something off the buffet trolley!

I still think given these routes are unlikely to ever be electrified they would have been perfect for a small new DMU order of something that is much more like Swiss Panaroma stock. Maybe that has to wait another 10 years as there is just so much uncertainty at the moment on future electrification that a ROSCO will struggle to fund even a specialist DMU for unlikely to be electrified lines.

On a serious note, when you list all the services that are to be granted “scenic” status out like that, I seriously wonder whether there would be enough 158s to go around? When you consider that twenty five units are allocated to Inverness for the Kyle and North Highland services anyway, leaving twenty three units that could potentially be available at Haymarket, of which eight are the theoretical Northern bunch.

Presumably the 25 units at Inverness includes a number that currently cover Aberdeen diagrams that can be sent south once the HSTs arrive. Not sure what the split is between the 2 services but you'd think maybe around 10 units wcould head south.

Looking at the 2011 diagrams available on scot-rail I reckon that Kyle / Far North Line is covered by 7 whole diagrams, 2 of which include a return Aberdeen service so could maybe be reduced to 6 if it was a dedicated fleet.

Even allowing for doubling up on some of those services, covering the Elgin peak extras (eventually all day service) and maintenance spares you'd think 15 or so units might cover the "scenic trains" requirement in Inverness.

 

[jw]

Hitachi has now put out a press release: http://www.hitachirail-eu.com/media...e61761/20141009-HRE-EGIPcontractwin_FINAL.pdf

It almost, but not quite, confirms a 23m length for the Scotrail trains (it only refers to the AT200 mockup).
Worth noting Hitachi are preferred supplier, so contracts not yet signed.
Nothing mentioned yet about financing, or maintenance.
I imagine there might be some chance of synergy with the Hitachi-owned IEP facilities in Scotland.

The second page of the press release does explicitly state 23m carriage length. Today's Railway Gazette article says that the contract also covers maintenance, as well as this interesting tidbit:

They will have aluminium bodyshells manufactured at the company’s Kasado plant in Japan using friction stir welding. Hitachi suggests that this technology could be imported to its Newton Aycliffe factory in northern England, now under construction, if 'another two or three' follow-up orders were received.

 

[Blindtraveler]

I'd think that would be about accurate for the Inverness DMU Numbers. 1 thing that has just struck me is that unless the GSW Carlisle and Tyne Valley extenders stay 156 worked then it will require those crews to be trained on iether 158s or 170s. Carlisle crew sign 158s I think due to there S and C turns but its Sprinters and Pacers only for Newcastle crew, then theres the stabling overnight to considder.↲
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Hope that Port Of Tyne will be used for see deliveries of the boddys for the new units

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The new electric trains will be maintained at a new depot at Millerhill, which is being installed as part of the EGIP electrification:

The second page of the press release does explicitly state 23m carriage length. Today's Railway Gazette article says that the contract also covers maintenance, as well as this interesting tidbit:

There's no date on the Millerhill statement, but it does mention First as being involved in the decision.
Now that the dominos have fallen to Hitachi for both IEP and Scotrail EMUs, for both supply and maintenance, I wouldn't be surprised if some consolidation of facilities was being considered.
This is the kind of thing that makes one bid better (ie cheaper) than another.

Edit:
Going back to the ITT, Millerhill was said to be a depot option identified by Network Rail (and with planning permission), but bidders could put forward an alternative for EGIP stock maintenance if advantageous.

 

[Class 170101]

I'd think that would be about accurate for the Inverness DMU Numbers. 1 thing that has just struck me is that unless the GSW Carlisle and Tyne Valley extenders stay 156 worked then it will require those crews to be trained on iether 158s or 170s. Carlisle crew sign 158s I think due to there S and C turns but its Sprinters and Pacers only for Newcastle crew, then theres the stabling overnight to considder.↲
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Hope that Port Of Tyne will be used for see deliveries of the boddys for the new units

I have heard it suggested that 158s aren't cleared for the GSW. Crews at the WHL depots (Oban, Malliag andFort William) would need training on them as well as they don't sign 158s.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I have heard it suggested that 158s aren't cleared for the GSW. .

Someone mentioned elsewhere they are cleared ECS via Dumfries, but not for passenger operations.

 

[sprinterguy]

Crews at the WHL depots (Oban, Malliag andFort William) would need training on them as well as they don't sign 158s.

It's a fairly basic conversion course between 156 and 158, isn't it? I can't speak for Scotrail practice, but they were quite laissez faire about it round our patch back in CT days when both types were operated.

Given the mix of 156s and 158s that have typically operated central belt services, I presume that it could be done if clearance can be achieved. They worked it out for the Kyle and North Highland lines.

 

[Liam]

Someone mentioned elsewhere they are cleared ECS via Dumfries, but not for passenger operations.

IIRC, the issue on the GSW is to do with plug doors and platform edges. Issue might be something else on the WHL, but as said above, the issues were worked out on the North Highland lines.

 

[WatcherZero]

Abellio in the early stages of planning steam trains for 8 routes. Presumably would be only a couple of services per day as regular trains would have to be cancelled to create paths for them.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/transport/abellio-planning-steam-trains-for-scotland-1-3569868

 

[HSTEd]

The second page of the press release does explicitly state 23m carriage length. Today's Railway Gazette article says that the contract also covers maintenance, as well as this interesting tidbit:

That tidbit basically boils down to:
"If you want any British content in these trains at all, pay us a giant bung".

This is why I wish we could return to the days of inhouse rolling stock design and manufacture.

 

[Blindtraveler]

*searches for Like Button*

 

[170401]

What I would have liked to have seen in the Abellio bid was a plan of some sort to get the line between Shields Road and Bellgrove electrified, which would enable Glasgow Crossrail to get up and running.

Cheers

Adam

Crossrail is dead and buried now. It failed because it would mean diverting services away from where they currently go rather than adding new services. Their is little demand for new services using crossrail and the only way you could make it successful is to divert existing services. It was only ever popular with enthusiasts and politicians.

 

[al.currie93]

Abellio in the early stages of planning steam trains for 8 routes. Presumably would be only a couple of services per day as regular trains would have to be cancelled to create paths for them.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/transport/abellio-planning-steam-trains-for-scotland-1-3569868

If true, I'm picturing a follow-on order of A1 Peppercorns for Locomotive Construction Co Ltd, all painted in Scotrail livery :P

That tidbit basically boils down to:
"If you want any British content in these trains at all, pay us a giant bung".

This is why I wish we could return to the days of inhouse rolling stock design and manufacture.

Agreed!