Could class 442s ever go back to SWT?

[Juniper Driver]

No.We don't want the pigs,bring in 50 brand spanking new 707's.Cheers.

 

[47802]

DfT have said TPE bidders can't propose using 15xs or 17xs released by other franchises (as Northern bidders will likely need to take them on.) They haven't prevented 16xs or 18xs released by other operators but FGW and Chiltern are keeping all their 16xs, while the FGW 180s have been secured by Grand Central once they come off-lease.

That leaves loco-hauled carriages and new build. New build will have a poor business case unless they order bi-mode or DfT have a proposed future use in mind.

Well I still wonder if possible alternate rolling stock option for Portsmouth - Cardiff in the FGW franchise document is related to potentially releasing some 16x to TPX.

 

[BananaRepublic]

No.We don't want the pigs,bring in 50 brand spanking new 707's.Cheers.

Well you're getting 30 new 707's.
Hopefully there's scope to order an express version (class 7**) at some point, to supplement the 444's.

 

[swt_passenger]

Well you're getting 30 new 707's.
Hopefully there's scope to order an express version (class 7**) at some point, to supplement the 444's.

They won't need to though. The brief by SWT was that the 450s displaced by 458/5s which are themselves displaced by the 707s will effectively supplement the 444s, by increasing a number of existing 'mainline' 8 car trains to 12...

As usually happens we're getting well away from the 442's future now though...

 

[Juniper Driver]

Well you're getting 30 new 707's.
Hopefully there's scope to order an express version (class 7**) at some point, to supplement the 444's.

With 20 on extended option.So the pigs won't be coming back.

 

[martynbristow]

Virgin Trains are part owned by Stagecoach.

Govia aren't bidding for TransPennine Express. Keolis Go-Ahead Limited are the company which is bidding which is 65% owned by Keolis.

When is an apple not an apple, when its an apple then.
Only the structure is different then as both are Keolis Go-Ahead :/

 

[SpacePhoenix]

DfT have said TPE bidders can't propose using 15xs or 17xs released by other franchises (as Northern bidders will likely need to take them on.) They haven't prevented 16xs or 18xs released by other operators but FGW and Chiltern are keeping all their 16xs, while the FGW 180s have been secured by Grand Central once they come off-lease.

That leaves loco-hauled carriages and new build. New build will have a poor business case unless they order bi-mode or DfT have a proposed future use in mind.

If the same company wins both Northern and TPE, could the "Northern Side" take 15xs and 17xs release by other franchises and then "load" them to the "TPE side"?

 

[al.currie93]

I'm unsure about your calculations for the the class 68. This significantly beats the Class 22x DMUs 0-60 of 80 seconds time which have a similar power to weight ratio.

These were done by timing the train to 50mph from standstill - I wasn't aware of that figure for the 22X classes, and I was also surprised but they were my results. If you're willing to undertake some timings yourself I'd be interested to compare (it will actually help me out)

Either way, this thread is for a different topic and I was intending to just point something out, so feel free to message me if you want to discuss MU vs Loco (I have a fair bit of information and would be up for comparing this). With regards to the subject of the thread, I don't believe that they should go back - SWT have the 444s for that route and introducing 442s again will only introduce a non-standard fleet making maintenance more costly. I only believe that they should return if the 444s are found to be better suited elsewhere, such as being pantograph fitted and sent to TPE routes - although I don't see such a move being likely at all, and nor would I propose it if it were down to me.

 

[Blaahh]

the 450s arent suitable for long distance commute, the seats in the 4s and 6s are too narrow, i avoid all PH trains like the plague!

 

[LBSCR Times]

Flogging a dead horse is a very generous description, I've actually heard that the RSPCA are taking steps to stop the very mention of 442s as they claim it's the worse case of horse mistreatment they've ever come across

More likely the mistreatment of the variety of pigs, known as Wessex, in trying to make them fly.....

 

[cjmillsnun]

More likely the mistreatment of the variety of pigs, known as Wessex, in trying to make them fly.....

Now there's an idea. Strap some wings and jet engines to them

 

[BananaRepublic]

They won't need to though. The brief by SWT was that the 450s.........will effectively supplement the 444s, by increasing a number of existing 'mainline' 8 car trains to 12...

That is indeed the plan, but the 450's are wholly unsuitable for the long distance express services from the coast up to Waterloo.
The 444's, 442's before them and earlier express stock, were ordered to fulfil a requirement for a level of comfort suited to longer distance travel.
The 450's are an outer suburban train designed for frequent stopping and high capacity.

If the DafT are just playing the number of seats game, why not reconfigure The Pendolinos and mk4 carriages to 3+2. No need for any HS2 then!

 

[cjmillsnun]

That is indeed the plan, but the 450's are wholly unsuitable for the long distance express services from the coast up to Waterloo.
The 444's, 442's before them and earlier express stock, were ordered to fulfil a requirement for a level of comfort suited to longer distance travel.
The 450's are an outer suburban train designed for frequent stopping and high capacity.

If the DafT are just playing the number of seats game, why not reconfigure The Pendolinos and mk4 carriages to 3+2. No need for any HS2 then!

I live on the Pompey direct and hate the 450s because I can't stand the seats. However let's be blunt. It is not a long distance journey. It's at most 2 hours 4 minutes if you go to Waterloo from the Harbour on the stopper. The Pompey direct is a commuter route, the SWML classes as long distance, but most of the journeys are going to be using 444s.

Paddington to Penzance is over 5 hours,

Euston to Glasgow is 4 and a half hours

King's Cross to Inverness is over 8 hours.

Yes for those journeys you need a more comfortable train.

 

[455driver]

The Pompy direct needs 450s during the peaks to carry the number of passengers, if the same trains were formed of 444s they would leave lots of people behind.

 

[gnolife]

Here is the perfect use for the 442s and the pie in the sky ideas...

I can safely say that there is absolutely no way on earth that I would feed a 442 to my dog, whatever the circumstances may be.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

I've never been on the Waterloo-Portsmouth Harbour route, what's the average distance and time between stops compared with Waterloo-Weymouth (or to Poole)?

 

[jopsuk]

Waterloo-Portsmouth Harbour via the Portsmouth Direct is, according to Railmiles, 74mi 30ch. Poole is 113mi 62ch, Weymouth is 142mi 64ch

 

[AM9]

I've never been on the Waterloo-Portsmouth Harbour route, what's the average distance and time between stops compared with Waterloo-Weymouth (or to Poole)?

Portsmouth direct -74 1/2 miles:
fasts 8-10 stops=9.3-7.5 miles between stops,
slows 16-18 stops=4.65-4.13 miles between stops

shorts Waterloo to Haslemere - 43 miles:
slows 8 stops=5.73 miles between stops

Except during peak hours, less than 50% of passengers leaving Waterloo or Clapham Junction go further than Guildford.

Cant get to the current SWML timetable, - this year's download is rubbish!

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Portsmouth direct -74 1/2 miles:
fasts 8-10 stops=9.3-7.5 miles between stops,
slows 16-18 stops=4.65-4.13 miles between stops

shorts Waterloo to Haslemere - 43 miles:
slows 8 stops=5.73 miles between stops

Except during peak hours, less than 50% of passengers leaving Waterloo or Clapham Junction go further than Guildford.

Cant get to the current SWML timetable, - this year's download is rubbish!

Looking at that the Portsmouth route is probably better off being served with as high a % of 450s as possible, the stopping pattern is probably better suited to 450s then 444s.

 

[AM9]

Looking at that the Portsmouth route is probably better off being served with as high a % of 450s as possible, the stopping pattern is probably better suited to 450s then 444s.

OK now Weymouth services:

Waterloo-Weymouth, 142 1/2 miles:
fasts: 13-15 stops=11-9.5 miles between stops,
slows: 20 stops=7.125 miles between stops,

Waterloo-Poole, 113 3/4 miles:
slows: 23 stops=4.95 miles between stops.

Probably well under half of passengers starting in London travel beyond Bournemouth/Poole, maybe as few as 1/3 on peak hour trains.

It would seem that 444s are only really suited to the fast Weymouth services
and maybe the Portsmouth services via Eastleigh as the capacity requirements are lower via that route and most of stops are after Eastleigh meaning that the dwell times are not so critical. Unfortunate as it may seem, the Portsmouth direct route is really just an outer suburban/commuter line with a small amount of through traffic. I used to travel both lines (from Havan/Fareham to London via the appropriate routes, when the 421/423s ruled and the direct line was just slow. At least the 450s have acceleration good enough to speed up on the few fast sections between stops, and if 444s were banished from the line, the speed limit in Buriton tunnel could be lifted.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

OK now Weymouth services:

Waterloo-Weymouth, 142 1/2 miles:
fasts: 13-15 stops=11-9.5 miles between stops,
slows: 20 stops=7.125 miles between stops,

Waterloo-Poole, 113 3/4 miles:
slows: 23 stops=4.95 miles between stops.

Probably well under half of passengers starting in London travel beyond Bournemouth/Poole, maybe as few as 1/3 on peak hour trains.

It would seem that 444s are only really suited to the fast Weymouth services
and maybe the Portsmouth services via Eastleigh as the capacity requirements are lower via that route and most of stops are after Eastleigh meaning that the dwell times are not so critical. Unfortunate as it may seem, the Portsmouth direct route is really just an outer suburban/commuter line with a small amount of through traffic. I used to travel both lines (from Havan/Fareham to London via the appropriate routes, when the 421/423s ruled and the direct line was just slow. At least the 450s have acceleration good enough to speed up on the few fast sections between stops, and if 444s were banished from the line, the speed limit in Buriton tunnel could be lifted.

Do 450s have more powerful traction motors then the 444s?

 

[BananaRepublic]

Portsmouth direct -74 1/2 miles:
fasts 8-10 stops=9.3-7.5 miles between stops,
slows 16-18 stops=4.65-4.13 miles between stops

shorts Waterloo to Haslemere - 43 miles:
slows 8 stops=5.73 miles between stops

Portsmouth Direct. Up direction.
There are 2 fasts per hour.
Starting at Portsmouth Harbour, they call at 2 of the other 3 stations inside Portsmouth.
Then they set off properly, leaving the island for the run up to London, after which there are only 5 intermediate stops before Waterloo.

Portsmouth Direct. Up direction.
Only 1 slow per hour.
Lots of stops before Guildford. One more stop before Woking then fast to Clapham Junction.
Better suited to a 450 IMHO.

Portsmouth via Eastleigh. Up direction.
Just 1 semi-fast per hour.
Runs as an all stopping local to Eastleigh, then semi- fast to Waterloo.
This is a longer distance route than the Direct and takes the longest time, even longer than the Direct Slow.
However, looking at this from an Eastleigh, Winchester and onwards perspective, this is a SWML mainline service. As such, it is usually operated with a 444.




.

 

[northwichcat]

When is an apple not an apple, when its an apple then.
Only the structure is different then as both are Keolis Go-Ahead :/

Whether a company's stake is under 50% or over 50% makes a big difference to how the company operates. Keolis have been the relatively silent partner in the current TPE franchise (with under a 50% stake) but for the next franchise if Keolis/Go-Ahead win it, it could be branded Keolis TPE with Keolis having a much greater say in how the company operates.

Govia don't seem to bid for regional/Intercity franchises but a company involving Keolis always seems to bid.

 

[BananaRepublic]

OK now Weymouth services:

Waterloo-Weymouth, 142 1/2 miles:
fasts: 13-15 stops=11-9.5 miles between stops,
slows: 20 stops=7.125 miles between stops,

Waterloo-Poole, 113 3/4 miles:
slows: 23 stops=4.95 miles between stops.

Probably well under half of passengers starting in London travel beyond Bournemouth/Poole, maybe as few as 1/3 on peak hour trains.

It would seem that 444s are only really suited to the fast Weymouth services
and maybe the Portsmouth services via Eastleigh as the capacity requirements are lower via that route and most of stops are after Eastleigh meaning that the dwell times are not so critical.

I think your figures for fasts are completely skewed by looking at the full length of the route as one entity and the average distances between stops give a totally false impression.
Also, the service pattern is not consistent over the whole day and changes to take on a different look in the morning and evening peaks.
If you had looked at Waterloo to Southampton first and then looked at Southampton to Weymouth, as separate sections of the route, you would get very different figures.

The fasts run for much longer distances from Waterloo, with only 1, 2 or 3 stops before Southampton airport. Those that go on to terminate at either Bournemouth, Poole or Weymouth, become slow stoppers for the remaining part of the journey after Southampton.
In the 3 hour evening peak, almost all services are fast to Southampton. There are no slows stoppers and only one semi-fast in those 3 hours.
Off peak there is one slow stopper per hour to Southampton.

The line is not all about Weymouth, which accounts for only one train an hour. This link is arguably a historical artefact from the days of the boat trains. However, the ferries no longer operate from there.
The key part of the route is between Waterloo, Southampton and Bournemouth; with stops at significant stations, Winchester and Basingstoke. Very much 444 territory. The off peak stopper is the type of service more fitted to a 450.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Do 450s have more powerful traction motors then the 444s?

They both have the same traction motors.

 

[northwichcat]

If the same company wins both Northern and TPE, could the "Northern Side" take 15xs and 17xs release by other franchises and then "load" them to the "TPE side"?

Bidders for Northern are Arriva, Abellio and Govia and the bidders for TPE are Stagecoach, First and Kelios/Go-Ahead so I don't think there's a high chance of that happening.

Although, when First/Kelios won TPE, FNW took on a loco-hauled set and subleased 2 x 158s to TPE.

 

[jopsuk]

the 444s and 450s have the same motors and number of motors, but on a 444 they have to move five 23m long carriages whilst on a 450 they've got four 80m carriages.

 

[D365]

...they've got four 80m carriages.

Are you sure?

 

[northwichcat]

Are you sure?

They must have very limited clearance.

 

[ExRes]

the 444s and 450s have the same motors and number of motors, but on a 444 they have to move five 23m long carriages whilst on a 450 they've got four 80m carriages.

Overcrowding solved at a stroke ......