Could class 442s ever go back to SWT?

[swt_passenger]

In the 3 hour evening peak, almost all services are fast to Southampton. There are no slows stoppers and only one semi-fast in those 3 hours.
Off peak there is one slow stopper per hour to Southampton.

Of course the relevant trains that would normally be the Poole semi-fasts during the evening peak (the 1539, 1639 and 1739) do still leave Waterloo, they just get diverted to Portsmouth after Eastleigh; so from Waterloo as far as Eastleigh the semi-fast service is still basically the same as in the off-peak.

 

[notadriver]

Due to third rail currently supply limitations I understand they are both restricted on power anyway but I understand the 444 is more restricted than the 450 is.

 

[swt_passenger]

Due to third rail currently supply limitations I understand they are both restricted on power anyway but I understand the 444 is more restricted than the 450 is.

Other way round surely, on an individual unit basis? The 444 is a larger and heavier train at 5 x 23m compared to 4 x 20m, so its 4 identical motor bogies have to use more power than the 4 in a single 450 for similar performance?

However a 12 car 450 will be using more power in total in its 12 motor bogies than the slightly lighter 10 car 444 with 8.

 

[Juniper Driver]

They are restricted (not running on full power or acceleration) although I could only guess each unit has been done through the computer.

 

[DT611]

I live on the Pompey direct and hate the 450s because I can't stand the seats. However let's be blunt. It is not a long distance journey. It's at most 2 hours 4 minutes if you go to Waterloo from the Harbour on the stopper. The Pompey direct is a commuter route, the SWML classes as long distance, but most of the journeys are going to be using 444s.

Paddington to Penzance is over 5 hours,

Euston to Glasgow is 4 and a half hours

King's Cross to Inverness is over 8 hours.

Yes for those journeys you need a more comfortable train.

2 hours is a bit of a length though. you would still want a comfortable seat for that journey length.

 

[455driver]

They both have the same traction motors.

With the ones in the 450s being fed about 55% of maximum power above 10mph and the 444s being fed about 70% to keep acceleration about the same for each unit.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Due to third rail currently supply limitations I understand they are both restricted on power anyway but I understand the 444 is more restricted than the 450 is.

Right idea but the wrong way around, see my post above.

 

[notadriver]

Yes but despite the fact the 444 is allowed more power the 450 is still significantly quicker from a standing start.

 

[cjmillsnun]

2 hours is a bit of a length though. you would still want a comfortable seat for that journey length.

Yes but how many people would take the stopper the full length? If you're going from the Harbour to Waterloo, you'd get the fast

 

[GatwickDepress]

Another commuter-distanc service routinely over two hours long I can think of is Ore - London Victoria. Don't hear me asking for 442s on those now, do you?

That's a rhetorical question. Of course I bloomin' do but the point stands.

 

[DT611]

deleted

 

[antharro]

I frequently travel on the Weymouth fasts, both up and down. This is always a 444 and frequently a 10x444; however I can recall a couple of occasions when it's been 444+450, usually with the 450 at the London end.

When I'm on a down service, I always cringe slightly when I get to Brockenhurst and see a 444 on the Poole stopping service. I've always felt that 444s should be on the fast services, be it to Portsmouth or Weymouth, and 450s should be on suburban and stopping services.

As for the 442s coming back, I don't think that in their current interior configuration, that would be a good idea. All the comfortable seating removed (yes, I know seat comfort is a hotly debated subject, this is my opinion), the snug and buffet removed and the first compartments removed. I think re-introducing them in their current state would result in complaints regarding the somewhat budget interior. It would take an interior re-fit before I would consider them to be fit for fast Weymouth/Portsmouth services.

Should they be reintroduced, they shouldn't be on stopping services. Their acceleration is far too slow. They should be fine on fasts; I'm no expert on timetable changes but I don't think they've changed so much that the 442 acceleration profile would cause big problems. Obviously if they were re-tractioned then that would become a moot point, however I would still not put them on fasts due to dwell time from the door sizes.

If they go loco hauled then that would remove the problem of traction equipment, but that would surely be a very short term option only, due to the disability requirements.

As a big fan of the 442s, I would love to see them get a new lease on life, but I can't see how that's achievable without spending a LOT of money on them. Even I can see that as they are, their uses are very limited. I would love it if Angel Trains could come up with something good for them. On the plus side, they must be about the youngest Mk3s so the bodies should be in good condition.

Should they all be withdrawn, then I hope the NSERS group will save one!

 

[Matt Taylor]

admittidly i don't know this particular service, so it might not be an issue. but in general for that journey length providing some comfort might not be a bad idea. if it genuinely can't be provided and there is another option for passengers, fine. if it could be, then at least it should be considered when possible.

Very few people travel Waterloo-Portsmouth on the slow trains but a significant number of people travel between Portsmouth and Clapham which is still a lengthy journey.

On the southbound slows most people travel no further than Godalming, but they pick up passengers at Haslemere where they wait for the fast to overtake. The problem with 450s on the slows is that a minimum 8 cars is required which then brings up SDO issues as no matter how many times we announce it some people always miss their stop.

 

[infobleep]

As others have said I cannot see the 442's going back to SWT with the class 707's arriving within the next two years, which would free up the 450's to move to the SWML services.

I also cannot see the Portsmouth services getting any class 444's via the Guildford route, yes perhaps keeping the class 444's via the Eastleigh route, but it is more likely the 444's will provide the services to Bournemouth and Weymouth as they do now.

The arrival of the class 707's I suspect will also mean that a class 450, would be able to be used on the services to Lymington instead of the class 158/159's used now?

The Portsmouth via Guildford route currently gets some 444s, as does I think Alton or Basingstoke or even both. It's not as many as 450s.

Could they run more 450s on the Bournemouth line? In other words, where are the largest number of passengers, Bournemouth line or Portsmouth via Guildford line?

 

[455driver]

Yes but despite the fact the 444 is allowed more power the 450 is still significantly quicker from a standing start.

They are both 100% from a standing start so once the power starts trailing off the 450 has the jump on the 444.

 

[infobleep]

Portsmouth direct -74 1/2 miles:
fasts 8-10 stops=9.3-7.5 miles between stops,
slows 16-18 stops=4.65-4.13 miles between stops

shorts Waterloo to Haslemere - 43 miles:
slows 8 stops=5.73 miles between stops

Except during peak hours, less than 50% of passengers leaving Waterloo or Clapham Junction go further than Guildford.

Cant get to the current SWML timetable, - this year's download is rubbish!

Interestingly you are more likely to get a 444 on the Portsmouth via Guildford route outside of peak rush hour or if travelling in the opposite direction to most other commuters.

There are some that go towards London during the morning rush hour.

I personally prefer the 444s because they have plug sockets and tables in standard class, not to mention WiFi, where as the 450s don't. However I'd rather travel on a 450 than a 455. It's all relative.

 

[Bigfoot]

I personally prefer the 444s because they have plug sockets and tables in standard class, not to mention WiFi, where as the 450s don't. However I'd rather travel on a 450 than a 455. It's all relative.

WiFi not far away on the 450s. Look up when you're on board. About half have it fitted, just not switched on...

 

[SpacePhoenix]

The Portsmouth via Guildford route currently gets some 444s, as does I think Alton or Basingstoke or even both. It's not as many as 450s.

Could they run more 450s on the Bournemouth line? In other words, where are the largest number of passengers, Bournemouth line or Portsmouth via Guildford line?

Fasts and semi-fasts on the Waterloo-Weymouth are probably well suited to 444s as there's a fair bit of time between stops. Could many of the larger stations handle 2 444s coupled to a 450 (assuming that combination is even possible anyway), with the 450 detaching at Bournemouth and the 2 444s terminating at Bournemouth?

Waterloo-Portsmouth Harbour route is better suited to 450s as there is potentially always a lot of holiday and commuter traffic (ferries to the IoW and to France. You've also got to 3 large tourist attractions (historic dockyard and sub museum, Spinaker tower and the harbor tour) and the naval dockyward.

Poole, Bournemouth and Weymouth also see a lot of holiday traffic but outside of the school holidays there won't be so much traffic

 

[387star]

The no to 450 group reckons 35 out of 65 trains formed 444 = 54% on the up and 35 out of 68 trains formed 444 = 51% oh the down on fhe portsmouth direct so that isn't bad

Why is saturday almost all 450 on that route?
I think there are more 444s via eastleigh ti portsmouth as they can attach to weymoutg portions if necessary?

I find the 450s very stylish trains internally and think they are fine but do suffer when overcrowded

Why are 444s being used on the poole stoppers then what is the offical reason? Sometimes 450s are used on the fasts and 444s on the slow on the Portsmouth via Guildfords

Back on topic South west trains are very good at refurbishments imagine what a 442 could look like

 

[swt_passenger]

I think there are more 444s via eastleigh ti portsmouth as they can attach to weymoutg portions if necessary?

Splitting and joining the via Eastleigh trains is a Sunday only thing, and they join/split with a Poole portion. Weymouth is only hourly on Sundays, however this changes in December with separate Poole and Portsmouth trains from Sunday afternoon onwards.

Why are 444s being used on the Poole stoppers then what is the offical reason? Sometimes 450s are used on the fasts and 444s on the slow on the Portsmouth via Guildfords

SWT do have a plan, it isn't random, but basically they diagram the trains to align with required capacity in the following order: (lowest) 450 > 444 > 8.450 > 10.444 > 12.450 (highest).

The various press releases over the last couple of years clearly show this is intended to happen, a single 444 being replaced by an 8.450 will be announced as a capacity improvement, as will a 10.444 being replaced with 12.450. Now a lot of people will object (see other threads), but that's the basic reason.

For example:

The following services to/from London Waterloo will be lengthened between March 2014 and December 2014
Mainline services:
0600 from Haslemere (5 car to 8 car) so that's a 444 > 8.450
0650 from Portsmouth Harbour via Eastleigh (8 car to 12 car)
0844 from Alton (5 car to 8 car) another 444 > 8.450
1723 to Basingstoke (8 car to 12 car)
1741 to Basingstoke (8 car to 12 car)
1841 to Basingstoke (8 car to 12 car)

But what goes up must come down, so you get stuff like 12 car 450s formed from 4 + 8 at Southampton (at about 1555) which is basically a positioning move to form a down train from Waterloo. It doesn't need 12 cars at that stage of its journey.

 

[infobleep]

WiFi not far away on the 450s. Look up when you're on board. About half have it fitted, just not switched on...

That's really good. I knew it was coming but thought other stock were being done first and then the 450s.

Saying that the performance on the 444s isn't great. Even on quiet trains I find it not that good at times. However it's better than nothing.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Splitting and joining the via Eastleigh trains is a Sunday only thing, and they join/split with a Poole portion. Weymouth is only hourly on Sundays, however this changes in December with separate Poole and Portsmouth trains from Sunday afternoon onwards.


SWT do have a plan, it isn't random, but basically they diagram the trains to align with required capacity in the following order: (lowest) 450 > 444 > 8.450 > 10.444 > 12.450 (highest).

The various press releases over the last couple of years clearly show this is intended to happen, a single 444 being replaced by an 8.450 will be announced as a capacity improvement, as will a 10.444 being replaced with 12.450. Now a lot of people will object (see other threads), but that's the basic reason.

For example:



But what goes up must come down, so you get stuff like 12 car 450s formed from 4 + 8 at Southampton (at about 1555) which is basically a positioning move to form a down train from Waterloo. It doesn't need 12 cars at that stage of its journey.

So they ever do capacity increases from 8 carriages to 10? So a 459 to a 444.

 

[swt_passenger]

So they ever do capacity increases from 8 carriages to 10? So a 459 to a 444.

Are you meaning 459 as shorthand for 458/5, or was it just a typo for 450?

If 8.450 to 10.44 was meant then yes they do. Another extract from the December 2010 rolling stock announcement (for the post 458/5 arrival state) included:

Morning peak
Southampton Airport Parkway to Waterloo (8 car to 12 car)
Portsmouth Harbour to Waterloo via Eastleigh (5 car to 10 car)
Southampton Central to Waterloo (4 car to 5 car) so 450 to 444
Evening peak
Waterloo to Poole (5 car to 8 car) so another 444 to 8.450
Waterloo to Portsmouth Harbour via Eastleigh (5 car to 8 car) so 444 to 8.450
Waterloo to Portsmouth Harbour via Eastleigh (8 car to 10 car) so 8.450 to 10.444
Waterloo to Alton (8 car to 12 car)

(Unfortunately SWT's press release in this earlier case did not provide times.)

 

[Juniper Driver]

WiFi not far away on the 450s. Look up when you're on board. About half have it fitted, just not switched on...

The funny white dimple things in the coach on the ceiling?

 

[Deepgreen]

Absolutely no rumour of this and probably pretty pointless as the 707s will be here in just under two years.Plus we have the 456's and the 459's to free up the desiro's.Probably no chance.Weren't they originally based at Bournemouth anyway?

459s? Not aware of those.

 

[Juniper Driver]

459s? Not aware of those.

459's = 458/5s.
458/0's = 458/0s.

 

[swt_passenger]

459s? Not aware of those.

To add to the above explanation by Juniper Driver, this has been explained earlier in the 458/5 conversion thread - 459 is used in SWT's rostering and diagramming software as a placeholder for 458/5 because the rather elderly software only has 3 places to hold a class number.

Once all trains are modified they'll be able to use 458 again.

 

[hassaanhc]

The funny white dimple things in the coach on the ceiling?

Yes

(Seen here on FGW's 165120):

 

[Deepgreen]

OP's question was "could" they go back to SWT? Answer - yes. "Will" they? - almost certainly - no.

 

[Bishopstone]

Back on topic South west trains are very good at refurbishments imagine what a 442 could look like

I think the 442 would be great with First Class in compartments, a buffet area with casual seating and maybe some murals of local landmarks on the carriage walls.

 

[hassaanhc]

I think the 442 would be great with First Class in compartments, a buffet area with casual seating and maybe some murals of local landmarks on the carriage walls.

So basically as they were when with SWT

 

[CC 72100]

Yes

(Seen here on FGW's 165120):

As per FGW Mark 3s which now have wifi fitted as well.