Should First Class be abolished throughout the UK Rail Network?

[Starmill]

Listen, as much as you want it to be, the solution to everything isn't VEPs, CIGs and EPBs along with compartments

So that's why they're called SETs is it!

 

[The Ham]

There are problem with compartments, such as lower capacity and lower perceived safety (I.e. concerns about being in a compartment with an unsavoury character). However I could see that a business class compartment (sold on a per compartment rather than per seat basis, with say 6 seats per compartment but based on the cost of 4 first class tickets) could be well used by business for meetings on route. Add into the mix catering (drinks, platters of sandwiches, etc. on a similar level to what would be included with first class anyway) and it could be very attractive to business.

 

[wellhouse]

Flamingo asks, ‘Is the extra cost to TOC's justified in having extra staff to administer the First Class lounges and on-train?’ In the light of FTPE’s current Planning Application for a First Class Lounge at Huddersfield station, their answer would seem to be ‘Yes’

As far as passengers go, they often have a choice of fares, which vary according to a host of parameters;

• Operator
• Date of Travel
• Time of Travel
• Day of The Week of Travel
• Date of Booking
• Reserved seating
• Route of Travel (including numbers of changes)
• Flexibility of Travel by Operator/Route/Date/Time/Option of refund
• Duration of Journey (which may include changing time)
• Seated or berth accommodation on overnight services

If it is acceptable (and profitable) to differentiate fares for these reasons, why not also for Class of Travel?

A key problem with the issue is that while National Rail tells us ‘First Class provides you with a comfortable and spacious environment…’ we know that in many cases (especially London commuter services) it is no more comfortable and spacious than standard class, so what exactly is it?.

I have always understood First Class to be about superior accommodation, offering larger, more comfortable seats, more personal space, and an enhanced ambience, which can be provided by design details such as lighting, curtains, and carpets.

This is something I am often willing to pay for, especially on a longer journey. I am over 6 feet tall, and the standard seat spacing on some operators is just inadequate for taller people.

At seat catering is a bonus, but while many posters seem more concerned with freebies than with comfort, I am happy to pay for catering (including full restaurant service on long journeys)

Demand for First Class accommodation will vary by route, but when discussing which services convey First Class, it must be remembered that journeys are about passengers, not trains. There are plenty of long distance flows (Brighton-Scarborough as a random example) where the long-distance Inter City leg is only half the travel time, and passengers prepared to pay for comfort and should be offered the option throughout.

 

[Deepgreen]

Am I right in thinking that some low cost airlines now have a business class of sorts, meaning you might have some sort of lounge access, priority boarding and check in, and perhaps even some complimentary food/drink.

The seats themselves are no different though.

Sounds just like Southern's first class seats!

 

[badger1badger]

Currently on a VTEC service to York THE HIGHLAND CHIEFTAIN

first class is full does that not tell a story.

I vote keep first class !

 

[matt_world2004]

I think on busy commuter routes, first class should go. It artificially restricts capacity. , doesnt offer any real benefit to the passengers.. However I think rail operators should also provide leisure market only services Whereby only those with reserved seating can board the train, A meal and refreshments are received on board. Or there is some sort of theme to the trip or tickets are packaged up with some sort of event or attraction.An example of this could be a themed rail trip from Kings Cross to Alnmouth (For Alnwick Castle) called the Hogwarts express

 

[DarloRich]

I am marking out my long run up from the pavilion end.............

I see First Class a something of an elitist anachronism which allows the effete bourgeois oppressors of the common man to travel in secluded splendour whilst plotting ever more fiendish ways of dispossessing the people of their birth right while we, the real engines of capitalism, are herded like cows into little more than cattle trucks. Soon we will rise up and throw off the yoke of the neo capitalist, neo conservative austerity and secure for ourselves the fruits of our labours! The day will come brothers when the first class dwellers will be dragged from the train and shot like the dogs they are! Come the revolution we will all travel first class for less than the price of a second class ticket! Free Wi-Fi, more tea than you can drink and more shortbread than can possibly imagine shall be ours upon that glorious day! Comrades! The day will soon be here!

Well I am sure that is what you would like me to say but:

I don’t have any problem with the concept of first class. I imagine peak time first class revenues into and out of London ( and other major cities) are a major source of revenue for TOCS. Also if people are want to and are able to pay more for a service why should the TOC turn them away? Why should we seek top stop them? I also imagine there is a some cross subsidy of the second class sections of the train. I have used FC in the past and if I were able to afford it would do so again. To me it is something that is nice for a special event rather than a way of life.

There are several things about FC which I would like to change:

Firstly, I dislike the railcard, super-duper mega duplex advance boy wonders who seem to inhabit this board. They have little or no idea about the cost of real first class travel and their views should be weighted accordingly. Their sense of entitlement and “something for nothing” attitude on things like free food and drink etc make my urine boil. (see EC first class thread!) I also wonder how many “real world” responsibilities some posters have. Whilst some people seem to be in the lucky position of being able to choose to use first class and consider the price differential to be inconsequential, I am not in that position. It is hard enough at times to pay for a second class ticket let alone a first class one and some people could do with remembering that.

Secondly, I would like to see the level of FC reduced and limited to those actually paying a premium fare for a premium product. I do understand the economic view that 4 full FC cars worth of business might well cross subsidise the other 5 scum class vehicles but when those seats are empty it is galling to be crammed into a vestibule knowing that through the frosted glass doors are at least 3 empty vehicles. Imagine, however, the revenue to the TOC if ALL FC passengers we repaying a full price fare.

Thirdly, I would like to see the standards of second class improved to offer a better service to us scum class passengers. At the very least plug sockets at all seats and free Wi-Fi should be provided as standard. At the same time I would increase service provision in FC and make it a true premium product. The reduction in capacity would mean an increase in fares and a removal of the more silly advance fares. I would keep a weekend first style arrangement to try to fill the seats over the weekend and look for some form of downgraded premium to fill the seats off peak.

To sum up: First class is fine and should continue but perhaps not without some changes to rebalance things slightly in our favour and make especially peak time second class travel a bit easier. I therefor ehavent voted as the options don’t meet my views.

 

[infobleep]

I've never understood why some lines don't have first class. The Guildford new line which runs through Cobham, passes through parts of Surrey where the houses cost a lot of money to buy. Assuming the people travelling on the trains bought the houses when they were not so cheap, you'd think they'd be able to afford first class. If they can then surely it's an untapped revenue source.

I certainly wouldn't pay for first class on most Southern services. It looks just like a standard class seat with a head cover.

South West Trains first class is slightly better than standard class but not by much in my opinion. The best first class seats seems to be on intercity routes.

They also happen to be the only services where I've paid to be in first class. Actually not true. I once paid for first class on a London Midland service.

 

[Starmill]

Firstly, I dislike the railcard, super-duper mega duplex advance boy wonders who seem to inhabit this board. They have little or no idea about the cost of real first class travel and their views should be weighted accordingly.

Jealousy is soooo unbecoming of you I'm not sure why else other people getting good deals would be so frustrating for you.
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Imagine, however, the revenue to the TOC if ALL FC passengers we repaying a full price fare.

Well less than they currently do obviously because otherwise they woudln't sell the advances would they! :roll:

You do realise those of us who get the cheap tickets use the quietest trains? We are essentially doing the TOC a favour by travelling at that time and paying our £25 for First Class.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It is hard enough at times to pay for a second class ticket let alone a first class one and some people could do with remembering that.

The relevance of this is lost on me. I don't buy 'rip-off' standard class tickets like inter-city Off-Peak returns, which leaves me more money to get First every now and then. E.g. for Manchester <> London a pair of First advances will cost just less than an Off-Peak return if you know what you're doing. I know which I'd rather have!

 

[D6975]

I have used first class, but don't regularly do so.
In common with many other enthusiasts, much of my travelling is done on Rovers and Rangers, so FC isn't an option. (FC ALR is out of my holiday budget).

As to whether it should be done away with...

I bought a smartphone a couple of years ago.. I bought a Samsung for £80, which with a years worth of internet access was pretty much a giveaway. I did not buy an overpriced, overhyped, iPhone. Much too expensive for me. But do I think that nobody should be allowed to buy an iPhone???
Of course not, if someone else wants to pay more for a 'premium' product then why shouldn't they.
First class may be a less tangible product than an iPhone, but the principle's the same.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The relevance of this is lost on me. I don't buy 'rip-off' standard class tickets like inter-city Off-Peak returns, which leaves me more money to get First every now and then. E.g. for Manchester <> London a pair of First advances will cost just less than an Off-Peak return if you know what you're doing. I know which I'd rather have!

Personally, as you well know, I'd rather have an Off Peak Return purchased on the day of travel for the flexibility. And, for that matter, the option of a First Off Peak Return were it priced, as it should be, at 1.5-1.6 times the equivalent Standard fare.

That aside, no objections to the sale of InterCity Advance fares provided they are not sold at all on trains (in the relevant class[1]) where there are known to be likely to be any standing passengers.

[1] This means there are quite a few WCML trains where it would make sense to sell First Advance tickets but *no* Standard ones.

 

[Starmill]

P
That aside, no objections to the sale of InterCity Advance fares provided they are not sold at all on trains (in the relevant class[1]) where there are known to be likely to be any standing passengers.

[1] This means there are quite a few WCML trains where it would make sense to sell First Advance tickets but *no* Standard ones.

Nonsense to [1] - you can't possibly know that. Without any advances that train might be empty but for yourself.

 

[thelem]

First class should be kept, providing the subsidy per passenger is lower for a first class passenger than for a standard class passenger. When calculating subsidy per passenger you need to take into account any infrastructure costs needed to provide sufficient capacity to offer first class - so on a line that is totally maxed out it might be more efficient to remove first class rather than increase the capacity of the line (carriages per hour).

Given these constraints, I can't see how first class disadvantages the standard class passenger or the tax payer, and therefore it should stay.

 

[DarloRich]

Jealousy is soooo unbecoming of you I'm not sure why else other people getting good deals would be so frustrating for you.
...............
The relevance of this is lost on me. I don't buy 'rip-off' standard class tickets like inter-city Off-Peak returns, which leaves me more money to get First every now and then. E.g. for Manchester <> London a pair of First advances will cost just less than an Off-Peak return if you know what you're doing. I know which I'd rather have!

I had typed out a long response but then the connection timed out so the edited highlights:

I am not jealous of a discount but would like people to acknowledge that their experience does not reflect the reality for the majority. My season ticket offers me a substantial discount on the daily travel rate but isn't a true reflection of the fare.

I would simply say that when you join the rest of us in the real world and meet real world obligations (mortgage/family etc) you soon loose the flexibility to book a long way in advance and by extension access to the cheapest fares. Suddenly with bills to pay and no railcard that first class ticket looks out of reach.........

Don't get lulled into thinking the discount and flexibility you enjoy as a student will last for ever. The true costs of rail travel are a lot higher than you are currently paying

 

[DaiGog]

Maybe we need three classes of accommodation (on those trains which have the capacity of course). A 'proper' luxury first class, all singing all dancing, silver service, the lot - just in one coach. Then a sort of intermediate class, essentially a bigger seat, a bit more legroom, curtain, table lamp, tea and biccies - this could be used for cheaper Advance FC fares, and if necessary, declassified in the peak on a discretionary basis, without the service, while the 'proper' first class remains intact?

 

[yorksrob]

Ah, well you've hit on the real problem, which is a lack of any sort of railcard discount to encourage working age single people to upgrade to first (or indeed travel by train for leisure at all).

 

[Flamingo]

Maybe we need three classes of accommodation (on those trains which have the capacity of course). A 'proper' luxury first class, all singing all dancing, silver service, the lot - just in one coach. Then a sort of intermediate class, essentially a bigger seat, a bit more legroom, curtain, table lamp, tea and biccies - this could be used for cheaper Advance FC fares, and if necessary, declassified in the peak on a discretionary basis, without the service, while the 'proper' first class remains intact?

And have even more complaints about "There is an empty carriage for the super-rich while us proles are all crammed in cattle class"?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Ah, well you've hit on the real problem, which is a lack of any sort of railcard discount to encourage working age single people to upgrade to first (or indeed travel by train for leisure at all).

YP railcards only apply to Advance First Class fares (as do "Two Together, I believe"). The journey may be obligatory, the requirement to sit in First Class most definitely is not.

 

[DaiGog]

And have even more complaints about "There is an empty carriage for the super-rich while us proles are all crammed in cattle class"?

Why would you get more complaints than at present? The point of a three-tier system would be to provide more 'declassifiable' accommodation when necessary for Standard class passengers, without upsetting those who have paid for the premium service, and rightly expect to get what they have paid for.

Not that it would ever happen anyway...........!

 

[Flamingo]

Why would you get more complaints than at present? The point of a three-tier system would be to provide more 'declassifiable' accommodation when necessary for Standard class passengers, without upsetting those who have paid for the premium service, and rightly expect to get what they have paid for.

Not that it would ever happen anyway...........!

That can happen at present with trains that have more than one First Class compartment.

 

[martinsh]

That can happen at present with trains that have more than one First Class compartment.

"Compartment" ? Surely not quite what you meant !

 

[GodAtum]

That can happen at present with trains that have more than one First Class compartment.

On a class 377, it nice to have the 1st class compartments spread out in a pattern, but on the other hand it could be more efficient having them in 1 location.

 

[Flamingo]

"Compartment" ? Surely not quite what you meant !

Some trains have separate carriages, some are part of a carriage...

 

[frodshamfella]

I use first class if the fares right from Runcorn to London, certainly at weekends, standard is packed and extra space is nice, but I always think there are too many first class to standard on Virgin, although I hear they are readdressing this.

 

[Deepgreen]

On a class 377, it nice to have the 1st class compartments spread out in a pattern, but on the other hand it could be more efficient having them in 1 location.

The 377/6s and 7s, though, are a farce. They have a nominal first class section at one end of the unit (on the 7s) or elsewhere in the unit (on the 6s), which is not denoted by any external roof level yellow stripe, and which has the same horrible seats as standard. One or two units (e.g. 377704) don't even have any window stickers applied, so it's impossible to tell where first is from the outside. The application of first is supposed to be shown by the presence of tiny, flimsy anti-macassars but these are usually either completely or partially missing (they fall off at the slightest provocation). My morning train (Horsham to Victoria via Redhill) is supposed to include first, but the conductor today had to "sweep" the first section after every station to clear out those with standard tickets as they simply didn't realise they were in first class. He must have asked a total of about 20 passengers to move during the journey and they were pretty much all amazed that they were in first class!

Why Southern insisted on making first and standard classes almost indistinguishable is a mystery, and it causes the conductors a lot of hassle. Proper seating in the first class section and a simple illuminated sign stating whether first class is in operation or not on a particular working would have been so much better.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

For me, the issue with First Class is that in certain situations there seems to be an overprovision compared to standard. This is seen in the 9-car Pendolinos (now being rectified) and especially on FTPE. First class was reintroduced by Northern Spirit shortly after privatisation, when the 185s were refurbished. This entailed around half a carriage of the 3-car sets, and around 1/3 of a carriage of the 2-car sets, on services which were often overcrowded at a frequency of 3/4tph. When the 185s came in, the number of standard class seats per set dropped further, though the frequency was at least now 4tph all day, now 5tph.
My feelings though, are that first class shouldn't have been allowed to be introduced until the capacity issues in standard had been addressed.

 

[GodAtum]

The 377/6s and 7s, though, are a farce. They have a nominal first class section at one end of the unit (on the 7s) or elsewhere in the unit (on the 6s), which is not denoted by any external roof level yellow stripe, and which has the same horrible seats as standard. One or two units (e.g. 377704) don't even have any window stickers applied, so it's impossible to tell where first is from the outside. The application of first is supposed to be shown by the presence of tiny, flimsy anti-macassars but these are usually either completely or partially missing (they fall off at the slightest provocation). My morning train (Horsham to Victoria via Redhill) is supposed to include first, but the conductor today had to "sweep" the first section after every station to clear out those with standard tickets as they simply didn't realise they were in first class. He must have asked a total of about 20 passengers to move during the journey and they were pretty much all amazed that they were in first class!

Why Southern insisted on making first and standard classes almost indistinguishable is a mystery, and it causes the conductors a lot of hassle. Proper seating in the first class section and a simple illuminated sign stating whether first class is in operation or not on a particular working would have been so much better.

It's a shame they dont have at least different coloured seats like SWT.

 

[Greenback]

I'm a bit surprised by the results of the poll. I don't think I've ever seen the % of those wishing to retain first class fall below 85. I thought that the numbers of those who want to see it go would have been higher.

Oh well, it just shows how much I know!

 

[Flamingo]

I'm a bit surprised by the results of the poll. I don't think I've ever seen the % of those wishing to retain first class fall below 85. I thought that the numbers of those who want to see it go would have been higher.

Oh well, it just shows how much I know!

Me too!

 

[Geezertronic]

I think the context has to be considered. Personally I wouldn't like VT (WC) to get rid of First Class but don't see the point of LM having First Class on their services.

 

[Greenback]

The poll question is pretty clear, though. It refers to UK railways. Maybe the result would be very different if it was operator specific.

Personally, I think that some first class is a bit pointless, but across the UK, no, I wouldn't like to see it abolished completely.