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Should First Class be abolished throughout the UK Rail Network?

Should First Class be completely abolished on UK Railways?

  • I have used First Class and I think it should go.

    Votes: 33 7.6%
  • I have used First Class and I think it should be kept.

    Votes: 330 76.0%
  • I never travel First Class and think it should go.

    Votes: 22 5.1%
  • I never travel First Class, but think it should be kept.

    Votes: 49 11.3%

  • Total voters
    434
  • Poll closed .
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Welshman

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The only time I've used first class has been when travelling on "free" Rewards Tickets from the old ECML Company.

I would certainly not pay the full first-class fare to travel normally, and am pleased that the TOCs in which I usually travel, ie ATW and Northern, do not have first class [except for "Gerald" - now called "Business Class" to enable delegates of the Welsh National Government to travel on expenses].

In these days, where, thanks to previous short-sighted DFT policy, we are critically short of rolling-stock, to have coaches only half-filled while people are standing elsewhere on the train, is a scandal.

This was brought home to me recently, when I was travelling on a 5-car Virgin Voyager out of Euston to Chester, and rudely ordered out of coach "D" as it had been designated first-class for that particular service. So we all crammed into the three remaining coaches whilst 2 people had coach "D" to themselves!
 
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MK Tom

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Is First Class more hassle than it's worth and has it outlived it's usefulness in this egalitarian utopia that is modern-day Britain?

Should all First Class seats be converted to high-density Standard Class on all trains to provide more seats for everybody? Not just the pampered few, where Standard Class passengers are crushed against the glass partition, pressing their noses against it to catch a glimpse of the high-life beyond that they can only aspire to.

Is the extra cost to TOC's justified in having extra staff to administer the First Class lounges and on-train? In these days post McNulty could those staff be better used elsewhere, or dispensed with completely and the savings passed on to the hard-pressed passenger?

Is it a useful environment, which is an extension of the office where business can be transacted on the move?

A relaxing treat for a leisure journey, allowing for a nicer beginning or end to a pleasure trip

Or it something that simply makes a daily commute more bearable with a chance to sit and get some refreshments brought to the seat while unwinding from the stress of a working day, so as to be relaxed on arriving home?

What do you think? Just say if you ever use First Class or not, so we all know where your view is coming from.

No it isn't and no it hasn't, nor will it ever in my opinion!

They can do a great deal more than aspire to it, actually.

As others have said, FC is more of a profit source than an added cost often.

Yes it is, but that's not its only purpose.

That too!

And that as well.

I've used first class three times in the UK - once with Virgin to Edinburgh, and twice with London Midland to Birmingham. In all three cases it was on cheaper than usual advance singles, and I chose First Class so I could simply enjoy comfort, peace and privacy. When I have the money to, I will use it far more. I've also used it on an overseas trip in Italy, in that instance to give an appropriate sense of class to a trip around the Mediterranean coast.
 
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yorksrob

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If First Class was actually used by passengers paying First Class fares, that would be fine. However, we all know (however much some want to conceal it) that this does not happen.

Filling up First Class with people on bargain Advances which are substantially less than the normal Standard Class fare, just because you have provided too much First and too little Standard is silly. Among other things, it gives revenue dilution for the (few) who would actually have paid the First, but take advantage of this.

I think having a bit of a differential between products is a good thing.

I suspect that many of those buying discounted first class advances are probably those who would have otherwise bought a discounted standard class advance, so it still represents an increase in revenue on what the TOC would have received from that person. And if prices are allocated properly, there's no reason why first class has to be empty at any time.
 

HilversumNS

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30 Apr 2015
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232
If you support two classes, ask yourself why not three?
The answer is the reason we need Standard class all-round.

Eurostar already have 3, as do many airlines.



Surely it's a case of "you pay for what you get" or at least it should be ..
 

First class

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I find it very hard to believe there is a TOC in this country that makes more from FC than from standard

Well I am not in the business of revealing commercially sensitive information. This sort of information is what is normally redacted in franchise agreements.
 

jon0844

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Am I right in thinking that some low cost airlines now have a business class of sorts, meaning you might have some sort of lounge access, priority boarding and check in, and perhaps even some complimentary food/drink.

The seats themselves are no different though.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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If First Class was actually used by passengers paying First Class fares, that would be fine. However, we all know (however much some want to conceal it) that this does not happen.

Did you read my posting earlier on in the thread? It certainly happens in the case of both my good lady wife and I, where the First Class facility is available.

It is annoying that the ATW Class 175 from Wilmslow to Shrewsbury, Ludlow and Hereford do not offer this particular option, but there is no first class accommodation on those particular units.
 

HilversumNS

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Am I right in thinking that some low cost airlines now have a business class of sorts, meaning you might have some sort of lounge access, priority boarding and check in, and perhaps even some complimentary food/drink.

The seats themselves are no different though.

Yes, Ryanair do this. If you pay the extra, you may be able to choose one of the seats with more legroom.
 

Flamingo

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6,810
Looking at the poll so far, I'm surprised that there are so many in favour of retaining First Class - 86%! I really thought it would be closer.

It's started off a good debate for a Bank Holiday weekend, though :)
 

Welshman

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11 Mar 2010
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Sorry, but trying to find a seat on a crowded ATW 175 (0) from North Wales/Chester to Manchester is difficult enough without 15-20% of the available space being made "off-limits" to standard ticket - holders. :)
 

Simon11

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Well I am not in the business of revealing commercially sensitive information. This sort of information is what is normally redacted in franchise agreements.

Please send me a PM and let me know. When I'm in the office next week, I'll will run a query to find out if I'm correct :lol:
 

ainsworth74

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I'm quite interested in hearing more from the 'never travelled first class but it should be kept' brigade.
 

cool110

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Preston
I'm quite interested in hearing more from the 'never travelled first class but it should be kept' brigade.

Well I've not really had the chance yet since nearly all of my journeys have been short off-peak ones where first class doesn't exist or isn't worth it (especially when there's a good PTE ticket). But in the rare event of making a longer journey I would certainly be tempted to take advantage of a reasonably priced first advance.
 

tbtc

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It's a difficult one, which is why I've not voted (as none of the four options really suit my position). And I say this as someone who travelled a couple of hundred miles in First Class today (Grand Central, since you ask).

I've no problem (in theory) with the railway providing different levels of service to different people. I accept the concept of people paying more/less to travel at different times of day or for different levels of flexibility (pay more to travel at peak times than off-peak, pay less if you are restricted to a particular service).

I don't see anything wrong with the idea of offering different things to different people (if someone'll pay an extra twenty quid for a ticket just to qualify for a "free" cup of coffee and shortbread then who am I to stop them?

(there is the little problem that, in order to offer different tiers, you sometimes have to make the "cheaper" tier less attractive. For example, EMT offer free wifi in First but charge for it in standard - it really wouldn't cost them that much to extend the free wifi to standard class passengers but if they did then there'd be less need for people to upgrade to First - so you have to keep standard class worse than it ought to be because you need to keep some "clear blue water" between the two offerings)

The big problem is that we've seen a combination of:
a) companies/government departments no restricting/ longer allowing First Class travel (something that generally happened in the belt tightening days of the recession but hasn't been reversed since)
b) a significant growth in demand for standard class travel
c) little change in the balance between First/ Standard seats due to the fixed formations of modern stock (only recently have Virgin/ FGW changed the balance - other TOCs are stuck with some formations unsuited to modern demand). For example, EMT's four coach 222s have one and a half coaches of First Class seating - quite a significant proportion.

Pre-DMUs/EMUs, we could have swapped the formations around fairly easily. But since it'd take some time to amend something like the 222s mentioned above (taking the whole train out of service to amend the seating in one coach, at a time when there aren't spare trains), it's not a decision to be taken lightly.

So we end up with large numbers of people standing in Standard at a time when few people are paying for full price First Class tickets (annoying people in Standard). But then that causes areas of First Class to be regularly declassified (annoying people in First - why bother paying for the posher seats only to find the plebs invading when the Guard declassifies your coach?).

If you could improve the balance then I'm in favour of First Class - as long as there are sufficient seats in Standard and we don't see the "clear blue water" I alluded to above used as a reason not to improve facilities for all passengers - e.g. free wifi/ plugs shouldn't be the confines of those at the "London" end - we should all be sharing in improvements.

However, as things stand, First Class is a luxury we can't afford on a number of services. If you have more people standing in Standard than those sat in First Class (on full price tickets) then something is wrong.

If First Class was actually used by passengers paying First Class fares, that would be fine. However, we all know (however much some want to conceal it) that this does not happen.

Filling up First Class with people on bargain Advances which are substantially less than the normal Standard Class fare, just because you have provided too much First and too little Standard is silly. Among other things, it gives revenue dilution for the (few) who would actually have paid the First, but take advantage of this.

The demand for First may be there into London in the am, and leaving in the pm. For the rest of the time, and at weekends, it's not really there. However with fixed formation trains the class proportion stays the same all the time.

The West Coast has, for several generations of rolling stock now, had a gross overprovision of First Class, for a reason I've never understood. Even out of London in the early morning, much of it is empty stock

Some good points there

I would never pay extra for first class without at least free soft drinks, coffee and snacks but the alcoholic drinks and hot meals are what I really want.

This is one of the problems with First Class, the "luxury" isn't something that people will always pay full price for, hence TOCs having to give away lots of "perks" in order to justify it.

If people need a "passenger lounge", a dedicated member of staff handing out biscuits, a restaurant service and several bottles of beer to persuade them to upgrade to First Class (whilst significant numbers are stood in Standard) then something is wrong.

The point is that those (fewer) first class peak customers enable off peak standard customers to afford to travel. First Class cross subsidies standard.

Very, very simply, see this:

I need a train to bring me £10,000, so that it covers its costs and makes me a profit.
First Class revenue brings me £6,000.
Standard class (at 50% less per ticket) revenue brings me £4,000.
Therefore I am happy as I've met my target.

If I remove first class, to get that £10,000
First Class revenue would bring me £0
Standard Class revenue would bring me £4,000.
I now have a £6,000 loss. Customers aren't going to take a substantial fare increase, but maybe I can just about make £1,000 from less dramatic STD increases. I'm still £5,000 down. My only option now is to reduce capacity (to reduce access costs, fleet costs etc), to remove the train entirely, or cut staff costs, if possible

How many diagrams see 60% of their revenue coming from the (say) 20% of First Class seats over the course of a day? Say two coaches of fifty First Class seats compared to six coaches of seventy five Standard Class seats? You'll have a couple of busy journeys a day when First Class will be well filled, but for the rest of the day you're relying on some deeply discounted tickets.

How many people actually pay the full First Class fare then? how many just pay the supplement like at weekend or school holiday times of year? and then there,s the ones who have found a super duper fare after looking for ages.

True

Quality over quantity at all times is a good adage to follow.

One a number of lines, we don't have enough "quantity" to provide every fare paying passenger with a seat, yet we are putting a fair chunk of resources to provide a "quality" service for a minority of passengers.

The "quantity" should be the thing we get right first - before we start worrying about perks for a few people.
 

yorksrob

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However, as things stand, First Class is a luxury we can't afford on a number of services. If you have more people standing in Standard than those sat in First Class (on full price tickets) then something is wrong.

Surely the point isn't that people in 1'st should be paying full price tickets, rather that they are paying more than they would have done for standard, which still may be less than a full price ticket.
 

Bletchleyite

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I'm quite interested in hearing more from the 'never travelled first class but it should be kept' brigade.

Keeps the toffs out of Standard? :) (I always used to think, despite never having smoked, that you met the most interesting people in the Standard smoking coach).

More seriously, as with air travel, high First Class fares keep standard ones down with a bit of cross subsidy.

(Though I do sometimes travel FC and think it should be kept but only on IC. I dislike the concept of FC ensuring a seat - it should be there for those who wish to pay for a higher level of comfort/service, not to avoid crush-load conditions which would be better alleviated for everyone if it was instead all Standard)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I don't see anything wrong with the idea of offering different things to different people (if someone'll pay an extra twenty quid for a ticket just to qualify for a "free" cup of coffee and shortbread then who am I to stop them?

I would far rather the price of First Class was reduced to 1.5 or 1.6 times the relevant Standard fare for that train, and the freebies were removed. I rarely want them anyway. Like with air travel, I would prefer a decent range of quality food products served at your seat (or in a DB style Bistrowagen, but we don't really have the capacity to do that) from a menu, at a fee. Sometimes I'd pay for it, sometimes I wouldn't.
 
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Bald Rick

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If you can find a train that has anything like this sort of balance of revenue I'll eat my hat.

Certainly a few years ago, there were a number of up peak Virgin services that had First revenue more than double the Standard revenue. I'm not sure if this is the case now, but I would start setting the condiments out for that hat...
 
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Xenophon PCDGS

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How many diagrams see 60% of their revenue coming from the (say) 20% of First Class seats over the course of a day? Say two coaches of fifty First Class seats compared to six coaches of seventy five Standard Class seats? You'll have a couple of busy journeys a day when First Class will be well filled, but for the rest of the day you're relying on some deeply discounted tickets.

One only has to look at a Virgin Pendolino unit at Manchester Piccadilly station ready to make its journey to London. Just count the number of First Class only coaches on such a train as that and wonder what percentage of journey revenue would be generated from those passengers who travel in those First Class coaches.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
However, as things stand, First Class is a luxury we can't afford on a number of services. If you have more people standing in Standard than those sat in First Class (on full price tickets) then something is wrong.

I wonder, when you state "we cannot afford" whether or not you are just making a somewhat generalised statement about operational matters above.

As I have said in a previous posting, both my good lady wife and I still have plenty of available finance to call upon and we can most certainly view the fact that to us, First Class is most certainly something that we CAN afford, .....and we can also well afford the "H" banded annual council tax rates on our domestic property.
 

Gemz91

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I'm quite interested in hearing more from the 'never travelled first class but it should be kept' brigade.

I voted for this option... not sure why. Never seen the appeal in first class myself, but this doesn't mean I'd like to see it abolished. In fact, I think it would be a stupid idea to have it abolished. I like the fact that the option is there, where people can pay a bit more, to, in theory get a better seat and service, just not for me. Plus, I like keep the posh people segregated from us commoners.
 

asylumxl

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I wonder, when you state "we cannot afford" whether or not you are just making a somewhat generalised statement about operational matters above.


As I have said in a previous posting, both my good lady wife and I still have plenty of available finance to call upon and we can most certainly view the fact that to us, First Class is most certainly something that we CAN afford, .....and we can also well afford the "H" banded annual council tax rates on our domestic property.
I don't really think it is a sweeping generalisation. It is after all a form of public transport and a large chunk of the public are not in a position to regularly travel FC. Living costs are rising while pay is generally stagnant for most, so many do not have the available finances as you put it.
The real question is should the railways be run to the needs of the lower fare majority or should they indulge the higher fare minority?
 

LastTango

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Felt I had to chip in here since I feel the whole (and frequently recurring) question of whether first class should be abolished simply misses the point.

FC is not about elitism or separating 'toffs' from 'plebs' and certainly nothing at all to do with 'class'. It is about personal choice; the ability in a free society to simply pay more for a better product. Those who say that first class should be scrapped because it is somehow divisive presumably also believe that when you go to a supermarket you shouldn't be able to pay a little more for a better cut of meat or higher quality fruit; that you shouldn't be able to own a more expensive car or live in a larger house or wear a nicer suit than anyone else because this would be morally wrong; that because some people do not wish to pay more for extra space or comfort when they travel then no-one should. Is this not essentially Marxist?
It comes down to how we wish to spend spend our hard-earned cash. I earn a good salary but am by no means rich. I do not smoke or have the latest mobile phone or take foreign holidays but I do choose to travel first class, both from where I live on the South Coast into London once a week and on occasion to Scotland. I share the first class carriage with a variety of different people, from students (on long distance travel) to businessmen and the elderly, all of whom have chosen to pay more for a better experience. If we are occasionally scowled at through the partition by those patrons of Standard class who are forced to stand at busy times it is symptomatic of the rather strange culture-current in this country of not really being allowed to have better things, regardless of what you may have sacrificed for it. Our gutter press after all adore an underdog, but as soon as someone has strived and been successful they become a target, and need to be 'brought down a peg'. Can't have anyone really 'making it', that's not fair on all the rest(!). But perhaps I'm digressing...

In short, yes, definitely keep First Class, long distance and short. I'm claustrophobic and do not wish to be crushed in the minemeat of bodies and bags and upended bicycles that constitute a peak-hour train. I enjoy being in motion and watching the outside world go by in peace and quiet and a little comfort, where I can think or work or relax. If that means I forego certain other things for the privilege then so be it. That's my choice.
 

SpacePhoenix

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Might be worth someone writing off to various TOCs with Freedom of Information requests for a breakdown of revenue (1st versus 2nd)
 

amcluesent

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Thing may have changed under the new operator, but I always thought FC on the highland sleeper was a rip-off price with next to no luxuries, you were just paying for the certainty of not sharing
 
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