Mirfield to Leeds via Sowerby Bridge

[Paul Kelly]

I'm of the view that changes to the routeing guide should only be done either at the timetable change, or at the fares round.

This already is the case! The TOCs just prefer to ignore it.

10-6 CHANGING THE PERMITTED ROUTES
(1) Agreement to make a change
The Routeing Guide may, with the consent of the Authority, be altered from time to time by a resolution of the Ticketing and Settlement Scheme Council, passed by a 75 per cent. majority. Before giving his consent, the Authority will consult with any relevant RPC(s).
(2) Requirement to notify the RSP
(a) If such a resolution is passed the Operators must ensure that its terms are notified to the RSP as soon as reasonably practicable after the consent of the Authority has been obtained, in the format and in accordance with the procedure specified by the RSP from time to time.
(b) The alteration will take effect immediately after the first Fares Setting Round to start after the RSP receives this notification has been completed.
(3) Publication by the RSP
Following the receipt of the notification referred to in sub-Clause (2) above, the RSP will amend the Routeing Guide accordingly (or the part of it which is subject to the amendment) and distribute it in accordance with Clause 4-59 above.

 

[crehld]

Of course it is. They read this forum, and it's happened just as quick, sometimes quicker, on previous occasions.

It can be amusing when someone asks about an anomaly and it gets 'fixed' before they've even had the chance to buy the ticket

But nothing can beat All Line Rover posting about how he couldn't complain if an anomaly was 'fixed', and this was used against him in his own FOI request as justification for fixing the anomaly.

Sometimes they're in our favour, see Permitted route between Crewe and Hellifield this was fixed on 6th November, despite only being posted on 1st November.

I was just about to say "it goes both ways", and then you mentioned it And very useful it is too - I can buy advances now!

 

[yorkie]

This already is the case! The TOCs just prefer to ignore it.

And there's no proper ombudsman, no passenger watchdog with any bite, and no effective regulator to do anything about it! So it will continue to be ignored.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I was just about to say "it goes both ways", and then you mentioned it And very useful it is too - I can buy advances now!

It does indeed, and is worth mentioning, but most appear to go against us.

I can also think of many other examples of valid journeys that are still not bookable.

 

[34D]

Ordinarily all Northern services call at Mirfield. Generally only on diversion will any Northern service go non stop through Mirfield and Dewsbury - usually these are the Leeds to Blackpool North services, re-routed from Bradford Interchange

I see that there are three TP trains today that go via Brighouse, of which one (1P02) runs direct Brighouse to Mirfield omitting Deighton and all appear to be regular features: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea...8/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=TP

The OP has hinted:

Agreed - but the bus part is no use to me and CoC 19C is of great use to me.

So with all due respect to the OP I will surmise that he wishes to travel from the Greater Manchester area to Leeds (on 1P02 - fictional, as I severely doubt he will actually travel at 1am), and that he wishes to use a combination such as the following:

Salford-Sowerby Bridge: day return (which could be an £11.30 off peak day return's return portion dated the previous day and valid until 04:29)
Sowerby Bridge-Mirfield: season bought last week
Mirfield-Leeds: season (same as above)

If so:

There is a question over whether or not a Season is valid non-stop through one of the stations it's issued from/to.

I'd strongly advising against this, unless you have a letter from the TOC stating they believe it's valid, or otherwise authorising you to do this.

Not applicable in this case, but Infobleep did get such authorisation from FGW for a Season issued from Shalford.

Is indeed the $64,000 question: does the grey ticket whose photo we have seen constitute one ticket or two (when used as I have suggested)?

 

[Merseysider]

Is indeed the $64,000 question: does the grey ticket whose photo we have seen constitute one ticket or two (when used as I have suggested)?

It's one ticket, being used twice. That's how I see it.

 

[strowger]

I see that there are three TP trains today that go via Brighouse, of which one (1P02) runs direct Brighouse to Mirfield omitting Deighton and all appear to be regular features: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea...8/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=TP

The OP has hinted:

TUC was the OP, not I.

So with all due respect to the OP I will surmise that he wishes to travel from the Greater Manchester area to Leeds (on 1P02 - fictional, as I severely doubt he will actually travel at 1am), and that he wishes to use a combination such as the following:

Salford-Sowerby Bridge: day return (which could be an £11.30 off peak day return's return portion dated the previous day and valid until 04:29)
Sowerby Bridge-Mirfield: season bought last week
Mirfield-Leeds: season (same as above)

If so:

Is indeed the $64,000 question: does the grey ticket whose photo we have seen constitute one ticket or two (when used as I have suggested)?

It is not obvious to me that such usage is permitted. I agree with previous posters' great caution about the concept of completing a journey, and starting a new one, while passing through a station in which the train does not stop. I do not use my ticket in this way.

Also, sir, if you suggest again that I am a regular visitor to Manchester then I shall I have to ask you to step outside
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Grrr... Either way it's been 'clarified' by the powers-that-be at ATOC now.

Both the nationalrail and northernrail sites are still showing the journey as valid. I'm sure they will update soon, but if anyone's thinking of buying....

 

[yorkie]

It is not obvious to me that such usage is permitted.....

Agreed.

... I do not use my ticket in this way....

That's probably for the best!

Random trivia: I've met everyone who has posted in this thread except crehld and Arctic Troll.

There are many great value fares in Yorkshire, and if anyone wishes to discuss or find out about them, I highly recommend our regular Yorkshire Meals, so we can avoid the negative easements that will no doubt appear if they were revealed on the forum Newbies are very welcome to join us!

 

[crehld]

I can also think of many other examples of valid journeys that are still not bookable.

Indeed. Try Hellifield to Preston and see which way it sends you!!!

For the following stations (and indeed many, many more) to Hellifield via Lancaster is the shortest route (and often the quickest) route, so always valid with an "any permitted" ticket. But when you go online and try to ask for a ticket this way you are told to incorrectly buy two: Chester, Preston, Stafford, Southport, Warrington BQ, Wigan NW, etc, etc. Fortunately booking office staff and guards adopt more common sense!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Random trivia: I've met everyone who has posted in this thread except crehld and Arctic Troll.

There are many great value fares in Yorkshire, and if anyone wishes to discuss or find out about them, I highly recommend our regular Yorkshire Meals, so we can avoid the negative easements that will no doubt appear if they were revealed on the forum Newbies are very welcome to join us!

Yes, I really must get myself along to one!

 

[Tetchytyke]

Random trivia: I've met everyone who has posted in this thread except crehld and Arctic Troll.

Eventually there will be a London meal when I'm not stuck at work!

 

[34D]

It's one ticket, being used twice. That's how I see it.

Hmm. I probably agree.

Do we consider a day return as one ticket or two?

 

[bb21]

One, two portions.

 

[34D]

One, two portions.

If only a day return is held, can one travel non-stop through the destination of a ticket, changing outward to rtn portion there?

 

[bb21]

If only a day return is held, can one travel non-stop through the destination of a ticket, changing outward to rtn portion there?

I don't think so.

The only provision for travel non-stop through the named destination on the ticket is Condition 19(a) or 19(c), neither of which encompasses this scenario.

Although I can see this getting a little messy when you consider a technical argument regarding the definition of a "ticket" and the relationship between that and the two "portions" if one really wanted to.

 

[Merseysider]

I don't think so.

The only provision for travel non-stop through the named destination on the ticket is Condition 19(a) or 19(c), neither of which encompasses this scenario.

Although I can see this getting a little messy when you consider a technical argument regarding the definition of a "ticket" and the relationship between that and the two "portions" if one really wanted to.

I agree.

I don't believe it could be successfully argued that the passenger is travelling from A to B and then from B to A when the train doesn't actually call at B.

For example, a late night TPE recently travelled Manchester Piccadilly (station call) - Salford Crescent (reverse, no station call) - Manchester Victoria (station call). A return ticket from Manchester to Salford Crescent could not be used for this journey because neither the outward nor return portion are actually valid for a journey from Manchester Piccadilly to Manchester Victoria. Ruddy hell, this is certainly not simple...

 

[strowger]

Agreed.

Hopefully we're done with this now.

If any rail staff ever notice my ticket, I'll report it here...

It's 2 months since I bought it and I've had no trouble whatsoever. I've used it lots of times along both the Halifax-Bradford Interchange, and Brighouse routes, had it inspected by all manner of staff, and none has commented at all. This includes instances where I've used it on TPE with an amusing 19c split (pricing from stations along my route, to Manchester Airport is bonkers and seemingly random).

I've had a couple of well-meaning guards ask where I was going, both times in a "are you sure you still want to be on?" manner rather than a "oi, you are not valid" manner.

Hassle free.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Not any more...

Whilst looking for something else (related to doublebacks between Mirfield and Dewsbury as it happens) I noticed this in the latest update.

 

[Starmill]

Someone in year 7 would be expected to produce clearer sentences than that. My opinion of RSP continues to be degraded!

 

[Merseysider]

Someone in year 7 would be expected to produce clearer sentences than that. My opinion of RSP continues to be degraded!

Is a journey capable of travelling?

 

[strowger]

Not any more...

Whilst looking for something else (related to doublebacks between Mirfield and Dewsbury as it happens) I noticed this in the latest update.

That was done at the beginning of May, and does not affect the validity of my annual season purchased before the change was made.

 

[Welshman]

Someone in year 7 would be expected to produce clearer sentences than that. My opinion of RSP continues to be degraded!

I agree - a "negative easement" :roll:

I suppose a cancelled train is a "negative travel opportunity"

 

[OwlMan]

That was done at the beginning of May, and does not affect the validity of my annual season purchased before the change was made.

Have you a source for this?


Timetables change during the period of a season ticket - is there any reason why the permitted routes can not change?

 

[Deerfold]

Someone in year 7 would be expected to produce clearer sentences than that. My opinion of RSP continues to be degraded!

The clause after the semicolon simply makes no sense - I'm guessing they meant to (or should have) put a comma. I can tell what they mean, but it doesn't say it.

 

[strowger]

Have you a source for this?


Timetables change during the period of a season ticket - is there any reason why the permitted routes can not change?

Contract law.

It's widely understood on this forum that tickets bought before a routeing guide change retain the validity they had at purchase.

 

[OwlMan]

Contract law.

It's widely understood on this forum that tickets bought before a routeing guide change retain the validity they had at purchase.

Where does it state in the contract that the timetables can change but not the routeing permissions?

The T&Cs say it can be used on any permitted route (not any route permitted at the start of the ticket). Therefore I can see no legal reason why the permitted routes can not change (like the timetable).

<H1 class=basic>Season ticket conditions

This information is to help you get the most from your Season Ticket. It does not affect your statutory rights, or replace, form part of, or modify in any way, the relating to Season Tickets. A copy of the booklet 'National Rail Conditions of Carriage' is available from ticket offices.
Using your Season Ticket

• You can use your Season Ticket up to and including its expiry date for any number of journeys between the stations and/or within the zone(s) shown on it at any time of day. It may be used at intermediate stations, and on any permitted route, unless a route or any other restrictions are specified on the ticket. Details are available where these tickets are issued.
• With First Class Season Tickets you may travel in the First Class or Standard Class areas of the train. Standard Class Season Ticket holders may upgrade their Season Ticket to First Class at the ticket office before they board the train (or on the train if there is no open ticket office where you board the train).
• Travelcard Season Tickets allow unlimited travel at any time of day on National Rail, London Underground, Docklands Light Railway, Croydon Tramlink within the London Fare Zones Area. Travelcard Season Tickets are also valid on most London Bus services throughout the London Bus network. For journeys starting outside the London Fare Zones Area, the Travelcard Season Ticket allows travel by train between the starting station and the London Fares Zones Area boundary, and then unlimited travel within the zones paid for. Full bus details are available from: Transport for London, 55 Broadway, London SW1H OBD Tel: 0843 222 1234 .
• You cannot transfer your Season Ticket to another person.

</H1>

 

[Merseysider]

Where does it state in the contract that the timetables can change but not the routeing permissions?

The T&Cs say it can be used on any permitted route (not any route permitted at the start of the ticket)

One party to a contract cannot unilaterally alter the contract to the disbenefit of the other party.

For example, timetable changes are okay as they don't (usually) result in any problems. But if I had a Carlisle - Hexham season, and the service was reduced to one train per four hours instead of one train per hour, that might be grounds to take action.

Similarly, if routeing guide changes result in a significant loss of validity, ie routes I can take, they are unenforceable on a contract [to travel] already entered into.

 

[OwlMan]

One party to a contract cannot unilaterally alter the contract to the disbenefit of the other party.

For example, timetable changes are okay as they don't (usually) result in any problems. But if I had a Carlisle - Hexham season, and the service was reduced to one train per four hours instead of one train per hour, that might be grounds to take action.

Similarly, if routeing guide changes result in a significant loss of validity, ie routes I can take, they are unenforceable on a contract [to travel] already entered into.

Nobody has altered the contract. The season ticket is valid on permitted routes, nowhere does it state that these can not change.

 

[bb21]

The question we never managed to achieve consensus on is whether routeing permissions and NRG form part of the contract.

I won't pass a judgement on it but some of you know my feelings on this subject.

 

[Tetchytyke]

One party to a contract cannot unilaterally alter the contract to the disbenefit of the other party.

The contract has not been amended- the ticket is still valid for travel between Mirfield and Leeds on all permitted routes. Permitted routes are defined by use of the Routeing Guide. I wouldn't be so certain that ATOC/RSP cannot amend the Routeing Guide at their discretion.

It also hinges on "disbenefit". Both parties to a contract must be acting in good faith to enforce a contract. A passenger attempting to use a "loophole" such as this to reduce the price of their actual journeys from Sowerby Bridge to Leeds (bear in mind the Mirfield to Leeds season is £10 per week cheaper than the ticket from Sowerby Bridge) may find that a judge decides they were not acting in good faith.

 

[Starmill]

The clause after the semicolon simply makes no sense - I'm guessing they meant to (or should have) put a comma. I can tell what they mean, but it doesn't say it.

You can think you can infer their meaning, unfortunately as you're not the person who wrote it (at an educated guess, at least ) you can't know for sure. I can't stress this point enough, not so much with this case but certianly with others that aren't dissimilar.

 

[34D]

One party to a contract cannot unilaterally alter the contract to the disbenefit of the other party.

For example, timetable changes are okay as they don't (usually) result in any problems. But if I had a Carlisle - Hexham season, and the service was reduced to one train per four hours instead of one train per hour, that might be grounds to take action.

Similarly, if routeing guide changes result in a significant loss of validity, ie routes I can take, they are unenforceable on a contract [to travel] already entered into.

A very interesting question. Let us not forget that in addition to the contractual entitlement there is also the strict liability of railway ticketing.

Could we have a situation where someone has a valid contract to go Mirfield-Sowerby Br-Leeds but commits a byelaw offence in showing an invalid ticket to do so?