Jeremy Corbyn & Tom Watson elected leader and deputy leader of the Labour Party

[valenta]

News of the shadow cabinet trickling out. Andy Burnham becomes Home Secretary whilst Hilary Benn (son of Tony) becomes Foreign Secretary. Perhaps the most notable appointment is that of veteran left winger John McDonnell as shadow chancellor clearly appointed to pursue Corbyn's anti austerity policies - he recently stated he would "swim through vomit" to vote against the Tory welfare bill.

 

[asylumxl]

If you honestly think Trident will deter the Russians, you are mistaken. We and other NATO members are just cannon fodder, there to stall Russia and allow the USA time to react.

Besides that, Russians are not as simple as the Western media would like to make out. They achieved various impressive feets of engineering during the Soviet era, which were and are unmatched by the USA. Trident is pretty conventional in comparison.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

News of the shadow cabinet trickling out. Andy Burnham becomes Home Secretary whilst Hilary Benn (son of Tony) becomes Foreign Secretary.

(My emphasis added)

Gosh! Did I miss a general election and a change of Government sometime today?

 

[bb21]

Why is it only the moderators that are so negative about Labour's prospects? :P

I for one am not.

No need to go read the papers. If you want to have a laugh at all the stereotyping and predictions, just read this thread. It is almost as if overnight everyone has managed to obtain a crystal ball.

The man hasn't even started, but people are already writing him off.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Feel free to tell more people this. Some can't tell the difference.

The last part of your posting took me back quite some time to the time when a TV advertisement made claims that some people "could not tell the difference between "Stork" from butter"....
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Amongst the positions still to be filled is that of Shadow Secretary of State for Transport. Noting that Jeremy Corbyn does not seem overkeen on hidebound Parliamentary rules and also noting his views on rail nationalisation, could not a special dispensation be allowed that would allow him to appoint Mick Cash to that particular shadow role?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If you honestly think Trident will deter the Russians, you are mistaken. We and other NATO members are just cannon fodder, there to stall Russia and allow the USA time to react.

Your posting reminded me of a verse from a satirical version of a Christmas carol from many years ago....

"God rest ye merry gentlemen, lie safely in your bed,
The independent British bomb is flying overhead,
It's off to kill the Russians
When the rest of us are dead"
..."Glad tidings (as normal)" as the chorus.

 

[asylumxl]

Your posting reminded me of a verse from a satirical version of a Christmas carol from many years ago....

"God rest ye merry gentlemen, lie safely in your bed,
The independent British bomb is flying overhead,
It's off to kill the Russians
When the rest of us are dead"
..."Glad tidings (as normal)" as the chorus.

Without going too off topic, given the "Dead Man's Hand" aka "The Perimeter" is still supposedly in operation, that seems pretty fitting. Mutual annihilation.

 

[Butts]

The last part of your posting took me back quite some time to the time when a TV advertisement made claims that some people "could not tell the difference between "Stork" from butter"....

Yes, I also remember that as well - this thread is adopting a back to the seventies theme quite appropriate with the election of Corbyn as Labour Leader.

Stork was a pale imitation of Butter which is on a par with the electoral prospects of Labour under another sub prime entity.

 

[valenta]

(My emphasis added)

Gosh! Did I miss a general election and a change of Government sometime today?

Wishful thinking perhaps!

 

[yorksrob]

I think there may be too much opposition from within the party to do this. It is noticeable that he does not present a firm stance on this issue, which is most unusual for him! Of course, Corbyn is concerned purely with the negative social impact of Europe rather than the typical UKIP stance.

Corbyn doesn't seem to have come down on one side or the other as yet, which seems sensible, given we're about to be having a renegotiation, which he ought to be trying to influence. It's certainly difficult to see how Mr Ummana proposes to have any impact when he's admitted that he believes we should remain in the EU at all costs.

 

[DarloRich]

If you honestly think Trident will deter the Russians, you are mistaken.

It is no longer designed solely to deter the Russians. Today it is mainly designed to deter the nutters out there (Korea/Iran/ISIS et al) from popping off their one or two bombs in our direction.

Knowing that out there ,somewhere, is a silent, hidden, deadly submarine with the power to turn you, your entire coterie of fellow nut jobs AND everyone else in your country to glass at the flick of a switch has to make you think carefully about your actions.

 

[TheKnightWho]

It is no longer designed solely to deter the Russians. Today it is mainly designed to deter the nutters out there (Korea/Iran/ISIS et al) from popping off their one or two bombs in our direction.

Knowing that out there ,somewhere, is a silent, hidden, deadly submarine with the power to turn you, your entire coterie of fellow nut jobs AND everyone else in your country to glass at the flick of a switch has to make you think carefully about your actions.

Can't say I really support this - there's no way anyone would use nukes against any of those unless they were in a position to do the same to us: the international outcry would be too great (and they know it). Too many civilians at stake.

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

Can't say I really support this - there's no way anyone would use nukes against any of those unless they were in a position to do the same to us: the international outcry would be too great (and they know it). Too many civilians at stake.

...and of course, the UK would never use its nuclear arsenal without the say-so of the USA, makes one think , therefore why we need it. (Probably only reason is that the French have). I did read somewhere recently that the US aren't bothered either way whether we have them or not. Despite what some people like to think, we are not important enough in the world...and that doesn't worry me in the slightest. The Empire has gone!

 

[Groningen]

The advice given in one newspaper in the Netherlands is to start a new party with people leaving the Labour Party, LibDem and Greens.

 

[Senex]

.Despite what some people like to think, we are not important enough in the world...and that doesn't worry me in the slightest. The Empire has gone!

I do wish all our politicians would realise that instead of thinking both that they should need to have an opinion on all the world's issues (and that that opinion should be taken seriously by the real great powers of today) and that they had an obligation to try to solve such problems.

 

[TheNewNo2]

Is this a new age where the debtor can dictate to the lender where and when a debt can be repaid?

Can this new method be also applied to personal loan repayments to the banks?

There is a big difference between a single loan from your bank and the national debt. National debt is made up of thousands upon millions of individual loans - each has their own expiry date, each gets paid in turn and on time. The problem is that, like with payday lenders, you may need to take out more loans to pay back the first ones. However, that is sustainable, because government loans are not at exorbitant interest rates. In the meantime, deficit spending helps give the economy a leg up when it needs it. This is not saying the debt shouldn't be paid down, but the UK government is one of the safest places to put your money, so there's no worry from investors (and hence no high interest rates).

 

[radamfi]

...and of course, the UK would never use its nuclear arsenal without the say-so of the USA, makes one think , therefore why we need it.

Also, no one satisfactorily addresses why the UK needs it but most other countries don't.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The advice given in one newspaper in the Netherlands is to start a new party with people leaving the Labour Party, LibDem and Greens.

The problem with that is the UK voting system. It is highly undesirable to have similar parties, as they split the vote. Has Corbyn said anything about making the voting system fairer? What needs to happen is for all parties except the Conservatives to agree to only field one candidate per constituency between them against the Tories in 2020, on the understanding that the voting system would be changed after the election. Indeed, that may force the Tories to agree to a voting system change before the election, as they would only be able to win seats if they have a 50% or more vote.

 

[Tim R-T-C]

The problem with that is the UK voting system. It is highly undesirable to have similar parties, as they split the vote. Has Corbyn said anything about making the voting system fairer? What needs to happen is for all parties except the Conservatives to agree to only field one candidate per constituency between them against the Tories in 2020, on the understanding that the voting system would be changed after the election. Indeed, that may force the Tories to agree to a voting system change before the election, as they would only be able to win seats if they have a 50% or more vote.

Funny, since it screwed over UKIP, many people have stopped suggesting a change to our voting system since the last election.

So your suggestion is to put democracy on hold for a bit and let the opposition be decided by back-room deals, only letting people get two choices at an election? Any party that did that would lose support so fast, the Tories would just waltz back in.

 

[infobleep]

I agree, having voted for Corbyn not because I believe he will win the 2020 election (frankly I didn't think any of the candidates were likely to win in 2020), I voted for Corbyn because he is the only candidate who has inspired thousands of young people to join and older former members of the party who walked away under Blair and Brown to rejoin.

The challenge for the Labour Party and espically the Deputy leader now is to get back to basics and become and a grass roots campaigning organisation again and inspire people who have been inspired to join to vote for Jeremy to become full Labour members who can take the fight to the Tories on the campaign trail. Personally I would have preferred Stella Creasy for deputy but I think Tom Watson will do a good job in channeling the enthusiasm of new members and registered supporters.

Also having won 59.5% of the vote there is no chance of an immediate coup from the Parlimentary Labour Party against Jeremy Corbyn's leadership.

George Galloway will be back as he said he'd come back if Corbyn was elected leader.

 

[radamfi]

So your suggestion is to put democracy on hold for a bit

We don't have democracy now. Is FPTP is acceptable, then why do we have a fairer election system for Scotland, the London Assembly and Euro elections?

 

[DarloRich]

We don't have democracy now. Is FPTP is acceptable, then why do we have a fairer election system for Scotland, the London Assembly and Euro elections?

because when given the democratic opportunity to change the voting system we decided not to..............

 

[radamfi]

because when given the democratic opportunity to change the voting system we decided not to..............

But we didn't get the opportunity to choose a fair system in that referendum.

Groningen, as our resident Dutchman, what do the Dutch think about our voting system? Is the bizarre nature of it well known in the Netherlands? I read the NOS site regularly and it is clear that the Dutch news report on UK matters a lot.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Funny, since it screwed over UKIP, many people have stopped suggesting a change to our voting system since the last election.

So your suggestion is to put democracy on hold for a bit and let the opposition be decided by back-room deals, only letting people get two choices at an election? Any party that did that would lose support so fast, the Tories would just waltz back in.

It screwed over the LibDems and Greens too, and Labour to a smaller extent. The party with the least votes per seat (outside of NI) was the Tories.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

because when given the democratic opportunity to change the voting system we decided not to..............

It didn't help that the papers span it as extremists getting more votes than everyone else, when it did nothing of the sort. The first half of my post may give a clue as to why the papers (both Tory and Labour supporting) weren't too keen - those would be the biggest losers from any change.

 

[northwichcat]

Full shadow cabinet list

Leader of the Opposition and Leader of the Labour Party

Jeremy Corbyn MP

Deputy Leader of the Labour Party, Party Chair and Shadow Minister for the Cabinet Office

Tom Watson MP

Shadow First Secretary of State, Shadow Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills

Angela Eagle MP

Shadow Chancellor of the Exchequer

John McDonnell MP

Shadow Chief Secretary to the Treasury

Seema Malhotra MP

Shadow Home Secretary

Andy Burnham MP

Shadow Foreign Secretary

Hilary Benn MP

Opposition Chief Whip

Rosie Winterton MP

Shadow Secretary of State for Health

Heidi Alexander MP

Shadow Secretary of State for Education

Lucy Powell MP

Shadow Secretary of State for Work and Pensions

Owen Smith MP

Shadow Secretary of State for Defence

Maria Eagle MP

Shadow Lord Chancellor, Shadow Secretary of State for Justice

Lord Falconer of Thoroton

Shadow Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government, Shadow Minister for the Constitutional Convention

Jon Trickett MP

Shadow Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change

Lisa Nandy MP

Shadow Leader of the House of Commons

Chris Bryant MP

Shadow Secretary of State for Transport

Lilian Greenwood MP

Shadow Secretary of State for Northern Ireland

Vernon Coaker MP

Shadow Secretary of State for International Development

Diane Abbott MP

Shadow Secretary of State for Scotland

Ian Murray MP

Shadow Secretary of State for Wales

Nia Griffith MP

Shadow Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs

Kerry McCarthy MP

Shadow Minister for Women and Equalities

Kate Green MP

Shadow Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport

Michael Dugher MP

Shadow Minister for Young People and Voter Registration

Gloria De Piero MP

Shadow Minister for Mental Health

Luciana Berger MP

Shadow Leader of the House of Lords

Baroness Smith of Basildon

Lords Chief Whip

Lord Bassam of Brighton

Shadow Attorney General

Catherine McKinnell MP

Shadow Minister without Portfolio

Jonathan Ashworth MP

Shadow Minister for Housing and Planning

John Healey MP

http://labourlist.org/2015/09/labours-new-shadow-cabinet-in-full-2/

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Can't say I really support this - there's no way anyone would use nukes against any of those unless they were in a position to do the same to us: the international outcry would be too great (and they know it). Too many civilians at stake.

Towards the end of the Second World War, when the American military were given the death estimates of its armed forces whilst carrying out a full-scale land invasion of Japan, it took them very little time to select a list of large centres of Japanese civilians outside of Tokyo itself that their new atom bomb could be used upon until the Japanese surrendered. The first two of those targets were bombed without any heed of civilian casualties.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Towards the end of the Second World War, when the American military were given the death estimates of its armed forces whilst carrying out a full-scale land invasion of Japan, it took them very little time to select a list of large centres of Japanese civilians outside of Tokyo itself that their new atom bomb could be used upon until the Japanese surrendered. The first two of those targets were bombed without any heed of civilian casualties.

WW2 was the last total war the west has ever engaged in (although there have been a few where their opponents were), and there has been nothing of comparable scale since.

Whilst there may be a situation in the future where such a threat is presented again, I can't see ISIS, North Korea or the Taliban managing it anytime soon. This is compounded by the fact that there are additional countries that now possess nuclear weapons - not all on brilliant terms with the UK - and they would be quick to condemn any use of such an indiscriminate weapon, regardless of whether it would or wouldn't have been the best choice. Because of this, the aversion of a full-scale invasion of mainland Japan was arguably a unique situation due to its time.

 

[asylumxl]

Because of this, the aversion of a full-scale invasion of mainland Japan was arguably a unique situation due to its time.

Or it was just an excuse to test their weapon in a real world scenario. They rushed to attack knowing full well the war was soon to be over.

I personally consider it a war crime. The Americans are no strangers to them though, before or since. That's another topic for another thread anyway.

 

[Johnuk123]

Or it was just an excuse to test their weapon in a real world scenario. They rushed to attack knowing full well the war was soon to be over.

I personally consider it a war crime. The Americans are no strangers to them though, before or since. That's another topic for another thread anyway.

Start a new thread on American war crimes then.

 

[asylumxl]

Start a new thread on American war crimes then.

And why exactly should I do that when we have been discussing Trident and I've already said I won't continue to go off topic?

 

[Johnuk123]

And why exactly should I do that when we have been discussing Trident and I've already said I won't continue to go off topic?

That's the point you won't be going off topic as it will be a new thread.
You said your war crimes claim was another topic for another thread, so it seems quite obvious you're the person to start it.

 

[chris11256]

I think Corbyn's main task is to win seats in next years Welsh & Scottish parliament elections. That will be the judge of him, can he successfully prevent the SNP winning another majority. All his policies are a essentially a long wish list from someone who has no experience what so ever of government or the front bench. I'll be very surprised if he's still leader come 2020.