My bad experience travelling on FGW from Clifton (26/09): Total and utter debacle.

[DaleCooper]

For me the most important point that came out of Cinc026's post was that he/she did not place all the blame on the TOC but emphasised that parties on both sides made mistakes. There has been a knee jerk reaction to the post that is out of proportion to its content.

 

[A-driver]

For me the most important point that came out of Cinc026's post was that he/she did not place all the blame on the TOC but emphasised that parties on both sides made mistakes. There has been a knee jerk reaction to the post that is out of proportion to its content.

People will accuse me of defending anything the railway does and that's not my intention but it's not as simple as blaming the toc here. Where do people think they will get the extra stock from? It's not possible to simply stop people birding without setting up large queuing systems to control the crowds which requires lots of staff and costs money. Why should FGW pay for these extra staff? That should be down to the event organiser like often is the case with other big events.

Rail operators don't have spare stock. There isn't any spare stock in the UK. I see people on a daily basis cramming onto my train and complaining about how 'dangerously overcrowded' it is whilst continuing to force their way onto the 'dangerous' train rather than wait for the next one.

 

[bb21]

For me the most important point that came out of Cinc026's post was that he/she did not place all the blame on the TOC but emphasised that parties on both sides made mistakes. There has been a knee jerk reaction to the post that is out of proportion to its content.

I don't think there is a knee jerk reaction, as he has some valid points, but unfortunately the criticism levied at the railway industry were for the wrong things and factors which no one can do very much about, unless the current system is changed completely, which is probably what prompted a lot of disagreements.

Certain procedures have been highlighted by this incident that can be improved, for example, why the train had to move off the platform when the section ahead is not clear, thus making evacuation so much more difficult? This was explained excellently by father_jack in this post. Hopefully this incident will knock some senses into those number crunchers that there is a bigger picture than just who to attribute delay minutes to.

 

[Cinc026]

Anyway, hoping to have this thread closed. I hope the issue will be resolved for the benefit of everybody.

Yes I agree - had the driver not left the station to begin with [the train stopped literally 200 metres from Clifton], the situation never would have occurred. Again I can only apologise for my ignorance as a layman to the railway - as a result of this post I've picked up some valuable information.

 

[A-driver]

Anyway, hoping to have this thread closed. I hope the issue will be resolved for the benefit of everybody.

Yes I agree - had the driver not left the station to begin with [the train stopped literally 200 metres from Clifton], the situation never would have occurred. Again I can only apologise for my ignorance as a layman to the railway - as a result of this post I've picked up some valuable information.

But again, why would the driver not have left the station? If the doors can be closed then the train can move. How crowded the train is isn't of concern when leaving a station.

 

[najaB]

He wouldn't have told people to get off-most definitely not-but he may have said that the issue can't be fixed until people get off. Very different things and you seem to have misinterpreted what happened.

As I said in post #8, what was said and what was heard are almost certainly not the same thing.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Yes I agree - had the driver not left the station to begin with [the train stopped literally 200 metres from Clifton], the situation never would have occurred.

The fault condition that A-driver is describing normally only occurs when the train is in motion, the driver would have had no way to know that it would happen until it did.

 

[Cinc026]

I think confusion between what was said and heard is a main problem here

 

[A-driver]

I think confusion between what was said and heard is a main problem here

Yes. Because when people jump to conclusions over what they heard and point fingers at the wrong people it causes a lot of problems. That's why it's often better to ask questions rather than make incorrect statements like have been made on this thread.

 

[Cinc026]

Shall I keep apologising for my ignorance?

 

[455driver]

The fault condition that A-driver is describing normally only occurs when the train is in motion, the driver would have had no way to know that it would happen until it did.

And I have never had it (or heard of it happening) on a 455 or 150 which have better compressors than a 313.

 

[bb21]

But again, why would the driver not have left the station? If the doors can be closed then the train can move. How crowded the train is isn't of concern when leaving a station.

It's more a procedural issue rather than what the driver could do.

The distance between the platform at Clifton Down (MP 3/72) and the single line junction (MP 3/47) is about 1/4 of a mile, probably less to the signal protecting the junction, are the schedules so tight on that line that it is crucial that the train moves such a distance even if the line ahead is not clear? Wouldn't remaining at a safer place (ie. the station) until the signal is clear be a more sensible approach, especially considering that an emergency situation could develop?

Something to ponder I guess.

 

[A-driver]

And I have never had it (or heard of it happening) on a 455 or 150 which have better compressors than a 313.

Did have better compressors. 313s don't suffer the fault anymore as the compressors were upgraded to combat the issue.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It's more a procedural issue rather than what the driver could do.



The distance between the platform at Clifton Down (MP 3/72) and the single line junction (MP 3/47) is about 1/4 of a mile, probably less to the signal protecting the junction, are the schedules so tight on that line that it is crucial that the train moves such a distance even if the line ahead is not clear? Wouldn't remaining at a safer place (ie. the station) until the signal is clear be a more sensible approach, especially considering that an emergency situation could develop?



Something to ponder I guess.

I thought the OP said the signals were clear and the train stopped due to overcrowding, not signals.

Plus it depends on the location. At some places the train would wait in the platform, in others it will draw up to the signal. Depends on the exact distances. If nothing else the train needs to move up to it for the driver to read the signal number invade it's being held at danger due to a signal fault etc.

 

[najaB]

I thought the OP said the signals were clear and the train stopped due to overcrowding, not signals.

That was his original claim, it's now been changed to overcrowding at the subsequent station.

 

[Llanigraham]

I agree that it was a daft thing to do - many people did wait, others put up with the conditions. What people didn't expect was the train to come to a halt on the tracks and stay there for at least 25 minutes! Had the train carried on to its destination, people wouldn't have taken issue. It was meant to be a 12 minute train journey, but that time at least doubled. It's not so much finding fault with others than sharing or acknowledging a degree of responsibility for a situation that could have been easily avoided had the necessary planning been done.

Are you implying that the driver should have ignored the signal and carried on passed a red signal, into the single track section?

Since the train was already full prior to reaching Clifton, why did so many people FORCE their way on?

If it was only a 12 minute journey why didn't people walk from Clifton down Redland Rd?

Have you confirmed that the organisers of the Event liaised with GWR about potential loadings?

Have you asked why did the Event organisers only provided buses from Bristol city centre, knowing that many students would be attending from the main student area of Clifton?

 

[CheesyChips]

Quite evidently blame on all sides here.

The minute you start putting in place queueing systems on platforms then you're accused of treating people like cattle. If you don't place queuing systems in, there's surprise about how the people behave like cattle.

I can just visualise some generic 'macbook in a yurt' student moaning about human rights....

(I have licence to critisise students...I was one.)

 

[bb21]

Are you implying that the driver should have ignored the signal and carried on passed a red signal, into the single track section?

No, I don't think that is what he was saying.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Did the organisers of the festival attempt to arrange sufficient extra transport with First Great Western? Or did they simply organise a festival and expect everyone else to sort that problem?

I have a lot of experience in coordinating local services to facilitate large events such as music festivals - the planning and delivery are mangaed through Safey Advisory Groups (SAGs) which include the local authority's licensing, planning, highways, environmental health, trading, child protection, public health and estates departments, all of the emergency services, and several others. It takes months of planning and regular meetings. And there are always debriefing meetings. These are always chaired by the local authority, (and I've had plenty experience of event planning in Bristol which I can confirm conforms to this procedure). None of what has been said on here will have escaped the attention of the SAG members.

If there is anything that you really believe might not have already been brought to their attention, then please do contact the Events Licensing Officer at BCC, who will be chairing the SAG.

There's nothing to be gained by having a go at the rail operator. As a personal note, I believe I must be exceptionally lucky, because on my regular travels I suffer very few delays, but I know that incidents are frequent and do lead to delays of more that one hour quite often. That's UK transport. Trains can become crowded to absurdly dense degrees. That's UK transport.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

So....the train leaves Clifton Down station late because of the amount of students trying to get on (no doubt the train doors wouldn't close as a result)

The train stops midway between Clifton Down and Redland (for whatever reason) and the driver makes an announcement that the train would not be stopping at Redland (as the train is already overcrowded).

As a result, someone who heard the announcement decided to pull the cord thinking this was a way of getting off the train?

No doubt, many of these students had been drinking?

So how is this the railway's fault?

 

[Fare-Cop]

On the subject of overcrowding, we always seem to be demanding better services....like those in other countries..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0A9-oUoMug

Heaven help us if it gets as good as this

 

[sheff1]

each one of whom voluntarily and willingly put themselves in that unnecessary position of high density accommodation.

"each one" - really ? What about those already on board before the crush occurred ?

I have been in a situation myself when having boarded a quiet train it suddenly became grossly overcrowded due to a crush of people from a sporting event boarding at a subsequent station. By the time I realised what was happening I would not have been able to alight, even if I wanted to.

 

[jon0844]

"each one" - really ? What about those already on board before the crush occurred ?

I have been in a situation myself when having boarded a quiet train it suddenly became grossly overcrowded due to a crush of people from a sporting event boarding at a subsequent station. By the time I realised what was happening I would not have been able to alight, even if I wanted to.

Yes, that can easily happen leaving King's Cross and not realising Arsenal played at home and then being totally squashed at Finsbury Park just 6 minutes in to a journey that for some could be over an hour for many (although many fans will alight before then).

 

[DaveNewcastle]

"each one" - really ? What about those already on board before the crush occurred ?

I have been in a situation myself when having boarded a quiet train it suddenly became grossly overcrowded due to a crush of people from a sporting event boarding at a subsequent station. By the time I realised what was happening I would not have been able to alight, even if I wanted to.

I did carefully consider making my post more complicated by explaining that the 399'th person to board would not be voluntarily joining a train of 400 passengers. And that the 398'th passenger would not have been joining a train of 400 passengers (nor one of 399 passengers). (et seq.)
Unfortunately I was mistaken in presuming that the constituency of railforumsUK members wouldn't choose to challenge a point of principle on the basis of some numbers. My mistake - sorry. I guess it might have helped my career if I'd ever been a trainspotter.

 

[sheff1]

I did carefully consider making my post more complicated by explaining that the 399'th person to board would not be voluntarily joining a train of 400 passengers. And that the 398'th passenger would not have been joining a train of 400 passengers (nor one of 399 passengers). (et seq.)
Unfortunately I was mistaken in presuming that the constituency of railforumsUK members wouldn't choose to challenge a point of principle on the basis of some numbers. My mistake - sorry. I guess it might have helped my career if I'd ever been a trainspotter.

It is nothing to do with the specific numbers.

It is quite reasonable to say everyone who boarded the train at Clifton Down knew it was (about to be) overcrowded. I was referring to people who were already on the train having joined at a previous station - they would have no idea what would happen at Clifton Down yet you say they put themselves into the crush voluntarily, which is quite clearly not the case.

I do not understand the references to your career and trainspotting. Perhaps you can explain.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I suspect that not just alcohol may have been involved in passenger behaviour. Festival ?

The ability of passengers to pile onto trains in severe crush loading is almost infinite - having seen 313's on Wembley and tube strike days on I wold agree with some of the professional comments made here by driving drivers .....

 

[broadgage]

It's more a procedural issue rather than what the driver could do.

The distance between the platform at Clifton Down (MP 3/72) and the single line junction (MP 3/47) is about 1/4 of a mile, probably less to the signal protecting the junction, are the schedules so tight on that line that it is crucial that the train moves such a distance even if the line ahead is not clear? Wouldn't remaining at a safer place (ie. the station) until the signal is clear be a more sensible approach, especially considering that an emergency situation could develop?

Something to ponder I guess.

It would seem more sensible to have waited in the platform until the signal cleared, in order that anyone could alight if they wished.

I have heard it suggested that if the driver had waited in the platform until the signal cleared, that the delay minutes would be attributed to the TOC "train failed to leave station on time"
If on the other hand the driver left the platform and stopped at the red signal only about a quarter mile away, then the delay minutes are attributed to network rail "train held at a signal at danger through no fault of the TOC"

Is anyone able to confirm or deny this ?

 

[455driver]

It would seem more sensible to have waited in the platform until the signal cleared, in order that anyone could alight if they wished.

I have heard it suggested that if the driver had waited in the platform until the signal cleared, that the delay minutes would be attributed to the TOC "train failed to leave station on time"
If on the other hand the driver left the platform and stopped at the red signal only about a quarter mile away, then the delay minutes are attributed to network rail "train held at a signal at danger through no fault of the TOC"

Is anyone able to confirm or deny this ?

If the train had waited in the platform with the doors open then more passengers would have turned up and got on the train making it even more crowded!

All the delay minute bull is just that bull shoite, it was departure time and the train was ready to leave so it left, I have done exactly the same at Crediton today, big deal!

 

[plymothian]

It would seem more sensible to have waited in the platform until the signal cleared, in order that anyone could alight if they wished.

I have heard it suggested that if the driver had waited in the platform until the signal cleared, that the delay minutes would be attributed to the TOC "train failed to leave station on time"
If on the other hand the driver left the platform and stopped at the red signal only about a quarter mile away, then the delay minutes are attributed to network rail "train held at a signal at danger through no fault of the TOC"

Is anyone able to confirm or deny this ?

Delays get attributed down to the original cause.

The delay would go down initially as a waiting to single line (YE), which would then be traced to the late running service occupying the line, which would then go down as [I expect in this case] a R7 (station delay due to special event), which is attributed to the station operator.

If the train was held at the signal because the signaller forgot, or the infrastructure had broke for example, then NR take the delay.

 

[SussexMan]

each one of whom voluntarily and willingly put themselves in that unnecessary position of high density accommodation.
Anyone unhappy with it could have waited for the next train...

I have to disagree. The passengers who got on the train when it was already full, yes they chose to do so, but those passengers who got on the train when it still had capacity most certainly didn't voluntarily put themselves in the situation and I very much doubt they would have been able to chose to disembark by that time due to the then over-crowded carriage.

 

[najaB]

I have to disagree. The passengers who got on the train when it was already full, yes they chose to do so, but those passengers who got on the train when it still had capacity most certainly didn't voluntarily put themselves in the situation and I very much doubt they would have been able to chose to disembark by that time due to the then over-crowded carriage.

Please see post #52.

 

[Kilted_Scot]

It's a no win situation. People have a free will but they tend to follow others rather than make their own decisions. There is no legal limit on the amounts of people who can board a train or when it is "full".

As a guard I have come to situations where the train is too full and refused to depart. The way I see it, is that I need to be able to access pass come etc. I have had passengers, managers etc moaning, but at the end of the day it's a safety thing and my judgement call.

However I also understand on some lines that the pressure on the system means this is not possible, it is something that needs to be sorted out. I also think that the public need more awareness so that they can make better decisions. However just waiting in the next train, means you get crammed into another one, your just on first.

It's complicated and something which should be seriously looked at for the safety of all involved. Had any of these students been injured or killed in their bid for freedom and I was a guard I would be asking myself what I could have done to stop it, hindsight is a wonderful thing.